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What is the Force
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- Lykeios Little Raven
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- Question everything lest you know nothing.
5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #335102
by Lykeios Little Raven
I try to ask questions that provoke further discussion, perhaps from another angle. The OP’s question is definitely a good one and it is good to ponder such things and discuss them. I just get curious why we ask such questions so often. :laugh:
Also, yes, I can relate to getting ahead of oneself. Haha. As you apparently recall so readily!
“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi
“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell
Replied by Lykeios Little Raven on topic What is the Force
Ahh, got it! Also, thank you for the kind welcome, I forgot to say that previously. It is good to see you’re still around!Gisteron wrote:
Oh, no, not at all. My comment was more about what Brenna expressed in response, that this was all due to us being too intellectual, implying that we might do well casting that aside, as if the opposite were not the case. As I said earlier , your question is actually quite profound and can be interpreted in several ways. If anything, it should give us all a worthwhile pause.Lykeios wrote: I'm not saying we shouldn't ever talk about it or be "anti-intellectual" about it.
I'm just saying we ask this question SO MUCH. *shrug*
Maybe I'm just wrong and shouldn't have asked the question. That's always a probability.
I try to ask questions that provoke further discussion, perhaps from another angle. The OP’s question is definitely a good one and it is good to ponder such things and discuss them. I just get curious why we ask such questions so often. :laugh:
Also, yes, I can relate to getting ahead of oneself. Haha. As you apparently recall so readily!
“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi
“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell
Last edit: 5 years 1 month ago by Lykeios Little Raven.
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5 years 1 month ago #335106
by Brenna
I don't recall implying that we should cast the intellectual aside
I said the intellectualizing is an easier place to start for most, and also where we are programmed to start (but for me personally, not the place to end) . Possibly easier too because of the potential to seek and find evidence, but I think thats a conversation for another thread.
I did say that we need to move beyond the intellectualizing because no "answer" is sufficient if you are seeking to "experience" the force, in the same way that knowing what dopamine, adrenaline and norepinephrine do to the brain VS actually falling in love yourself.
But I would no sooner say "throw out the intellectual understanding" of something than I would say "throw out the emotional or experiential understanding." Because they are part of a whole understanding.
One or the other on their own may be perfectly acceptable depending on your intentions, but (again only in my personal experience) alone they might be an incomplete experience.
Its like theoretically understanding the chemical composition of paint and the specific techniques required to use the paint in order to create art. In and of itself its a perfectly acceptable and impressive pursuit.
But you could also use that to pick up a paint brush and experience painting for yourself.
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
Replied by Brenna on topic What is the Force
Gisteron wrote: that this was all due to us being too intellectual, implying that we might do well casting that aside, as if the opposite were not the case.
I don't recall implying that we should cast the intellectual aside
I said the intellectualizing is an easier place to start for most, and also where we are programmed to start (but for me personally, not the place to end) . Possibly easier too because of the potential to seek and find evidence, but I think thats a conversation for another thread.
I did say that we need to move beyond the intellectualizing because no "answer" is sufficient if you are seeking to "experience" the force, in the same way that knowing what dopamine, adrenaline and norepinephrine do to the brain VS actually falling in love yourself.
But I would no sooner say "throw out the intellectual understanding" of something than I would say "throw out the emotional or experiential understanding." Because they are part of a whole understanding.
One or the other on their own may be perfectly acceptable depending on your intentions, but (again only in my personal experience) alone they might be an incomplete experience.
Its like theoretically understanding the chemical composition of paint and the specific techniques required to use the paint in order to create art. In and of itself its a perfectly acceptable and impressive pursuit.
But you could also use that to pick up a paint brush and experience painting for yourself.
Walking, stumbling on these shadowfeet
Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.
With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
- Lykeios Little Raven
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- Question everything lest you know nothing.
5 years 1 month ago - 5 years 1 month ago #335142
by Adder
Hehe well it is a thread about what is the Force, so going from that angle I was looking at Hath Yoga on wikipedia, hatha could be said to mean 'force'... Patanjali's Hatha Yoga describes yoga as being; yogaś citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ
Swami's and Taimni's seem to gloss over that citta is more the emotive side of the mind then the intellectual side, and that vrittis is disturbances or discursive thoughts in particular rather then forms per se.
I like Bryant's the most except where it says the word 'active'.... I think discursive is more accurate on its own and that efforts of inactive thought are tools to reach discursive thought such that the state he refers as the goal is active cursive thought, in that non-dual awareness rather then a non-dual nothingness. Such that the "the power of pure consciousness settles in its own pure nature". Being that cursive is flowing and running, rather then sitting and feeling. But I guess it depends where ones focus is, and I think that makes a good definition of distinguishing the inner and outer being where that focus is to the Force, its immanence as an internal experience of flows, or its existence as activity in the external environment... and of course the mixing of both if possible but the later to me implies cognition and active thought else it would not function effectively in the environment.
So intellectualizing seems ok to me, so long as its effective to what it purports to represent.... which sort of provides a framework for whether something is on or off topic
But topics mean different things to different people, so we end up wondering perhaps how something relates to the Jedi path which of course again is personal to a large extent. Perhaps if people were more willing to deliberately make efforts to link their comments into how it relates to their Jedi path then it might make the whole thing flow more interestingly.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_yoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force
Brenna wrote: I said the intellectualizing is an easier place to start for most, and also where we are programmed to start (but for me personally, not the place to end) . Possibly easier too because of the potential to seek and find evidence, but I think thats a conversation for another thread.
Hehe well it is a thread about what is the Force, so going from that angle I was looking at Hath Yoga on wikipedia, hatha could be said to mean 'force'... Patanjali's Hatha Yoga describes yoga as being; yogaś citta-vṛtti-nirodhaḥ
Code:
This terse definition hinges on the meaning of three Sanskrit terms, nirodhaḥ, vṛtti and citta.
I. K. Taimni translates it as "Yoga is the inhibition (nirodhaḥ) of the modifications (vṛtti) of the mind (citta)".
Swami Vivekananda translates the sutra as "Yoga is restraining the mind-stuff (Citta) from taking various forms (Vrittis)."
Edwin Bryant states that, to Patanjali, "Yoga essentially consists of meditative practices culminating in attaining a state of consciousness free from all modes of active or discursive thought, and of eventually attaining a state where consciousness is unaware of any object external to itself, that is, is only aware of its own nature as consciousness unmixed with any other object.
Swami's and Taimni's seem to gloss over that citta is more the emotive side of the mind then the intellectual side, and that vrittis is disturbances or discursive thoughts in particular rather then forms per se.
I like Bryant's the most except where it says the word 'active'.... I think discursive is more accurate on its own and that efforts of inactive thought are tools to reach discursive thought such that the state he refers as the goal is active cursive thought, in that non-dual awareness rather then a non-dual nothingness. Such that the "the power of pure consciousness settles in its own pure nature". Being that cursive is flowing and running, rather then sitting and feeling. But I guess it depends where ones focus is, and I think that makes a good definition of distinguishing the inner and outer being where that focus is to the Force, its immanence as an internal experience of flows, or its existence as activity in the external environment... and of course the mixing of both if possible but the later to me implies cognition and active thought else it would not function effectively in the environment.
So intellectualizing seems ok to me, so long as its effective to what it purports to represent.... which sort of provides a framework for whether something is on or off topic
But topics mean different things to different people, so we end up wondering perhaps how something relates to the Jedi path which of course again is personal to a large extent. Perhaps if people were more willing to deliberately make efforts to link their comments into how it relates to their Jedi path then it might make the whole thing flow more interestingly.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yoga_Sutras_of_Patanjali
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatha_yoga
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citta
Last edit: 5 years 1 month ago by Adder.
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