What is the Force

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5 years 3 weeks ago #335064 by
Replied by on topic What is the Force

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Why do we keep asking the question?


What is it that is so threatening to you and others about this question that you guys have to make such flipant and capriscious comments?

Honestly, why do you care so much about the content of our conversation that you would interrupt just to disparage the effort?

Is it that you are so scared you might read something that might forever change your preferred view of the subject matter that you must attempt to deflect and distract this thread or otherwise pop poo it to keep those preconceived notions in tact? The only other options I see are are either philosophical laziness or the content being to far advanced so the need to pretend it's a stupid conversation comes out.:evil:

I’m not threatened and I’m not calling it a “stupid conversation.”

I’m only asking because I was genuinely curious and because I wanted to get people to think about the reasons they’re questioning the Force in the first place.

We don’t question why air is clear or why the sky is blue every few months.
I am completely open to new perspectives on this, but it just seems like these threads generally bring out the same people with the same beliefs/opinions. That’s all.

The beating a dead horse bit was a joke.



See that's cool. My comments were not designed to be jabs either as ari suggests but a joking intent designed to evoke a strong response like you did here! That's why it had a little devil face lol. Many posts are like that for me and I'm sure if we were in a coffee shop at a table all discussing this and this conversation would have taken place everyone would have gotten that. Different here though so I will explain that.... and I'm totally off topic!!! Ghack!! Hope the subject cops are not about!! (Nuther joke :evil: )

There are new people coming here all the time though and new perspectives get thrown into the mix so its important to keep asking the question. Plus everytime I ask it and i am challenged in conversation like this, it forces me to reexamine my beliefs and further refine them. In particular loudzoo has done an outstanding job of this for me this time around and I appreciate it. He has made me think and that is the point of this discussion, not actually finding the answer to a question we can never really truly answer - who we are - but exploring that question and in doing so actually enact the connection and live that experience of the force in our conversation. Our simple conversation here has allowed me to know loudzoo in a way I never have before... that's really the point of asking the question again, wouldn't you agree??


Perhaps a reminder then... Sarcasm doesn't translate well via text... At least until someone develops some internet based Force power to do so...
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5 years 3 weeks ago - 5 years 3 weeks ago #335065 by
Replied by on topic What is the Force

Arisaig wrote:
Perhaps a reminder then... Sarcasm doesn't translate well via text... At least until someone develops some internet based Force power to do so...


Who said that has not been developed already. In fact it is my force power and I weild it with the greatest of power! The jedi of this place have deemed it a darkside power though. I just dont see it that way but it is the nature of any such power right? Any power used in the name of good will be perceived as bad by another. It's a matter of perspective. I say we dispell with all these useless labels and rise above all that by truly embracing natural control of our power and using it to its greatest potential. I will tie this into this conversation finally by stating this is truly knowing and embracing the force for me. The epiphany that people are who they are going to be and we can either accept that and truly let that power flow through and around us, or we can stand uselessly in opposition to that nature and fight in futility against it in a meaningless attempt to change them into what we think they should be instead of celebrating them for who they already are.
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335066 by Brenna
Replied by Brenna on topic What is the Force

Lykeios wrote: Why do we keep asking the question?

We keep beating this dead horse to a second death. Pretty soon we'll have cooked horse (a la the slapping the chicken meme).

Why not just experience it for yourself?


I can get on board with cooked horse. As long as its stewed. Tough meat you know...

But it is actually a good question that I personally think has a simple answer. Because we are, through many avenues and for many reasons, programmed to think and intellectualize rather than feel and experience. And its a much easier place to start for most people, because if you take someone new to the concept and say "just experience it for yourself" the next question is going to be "But how? What do I do?"

To intellectualize is to be process driven. To be process driven is to want to know what it IS in order to participate in how it works. Getting past that takes time, whether you've been seeking it for 20 minutes or 20 years because no answer is really sufficient.

Or as the great green prophet once said "Unlearn what you have learned":side: D



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Part of the seduction of most religions is the idea that if you just say the right things and believe really hard, your salvation will be at hand.

With Jediism. No one is coming to save you. You have to get off your ass and do it yourself - Me
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335067 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic What is the Force
Brenna, nice to see you here :)

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335068 by Lykeios Little Raven

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Why do we keep asking the question?


What is it that is so threatening to you and others about this question that you guys have to make such flipant and capriscious comments?

Honestly, why do you care so much about the content of our conversation that you would interrupt just to disparage the effort?

Is it that you are so scared you might read something that might forever change your preferred view of the subject matter that you must attempt to deflect and distract this thread or otherwise pop poo it to keep those preconceived notions in tact? The only other options I see are are either philosophical laziness or the content being to far advanced so the need to pretend it's a stupid conversation comes out.:evil:

I’m not threatened and I’m not calling it a “stupid conversation.”

I’m only asking because I was genuinely curious and because I wanted to get people to think about the reasons they’re questioning the Force in the first place.

We don’t question why air is clear or why the sky is blue every few months.
I am completely open to new perspectives on this, but it just seems like these threads generally bring out the same people with the same beliefs/opinions. That’s all.

The beating a dead horse bit was a joke.



See that's cool. My comments were not designed to be jabs either as ari suggests but a joking intent designed to evoke a strong response like you did here! That's why it had a little devil face lol. Many posts are like that for me and I'm sure if we were in a coffee shop at a table all discussing this and this conversation would have taken place everyone would have gotten that. Different here though so I will explain that.... and I'm totally off topic!!! Ghack!! Hope the subject cops are not about!! (Nuther joke :evil: )

There are new people coming here all the time though and new perspectives get thrown into the mix so its important to keep asking the question. Plus everytime I ask it and i am challenged in conversation like this, it forces me to reexamine my beliefs and further refine them. In particular loudzoo has done an outstanding job of this for me this time around and I appreciate it. He has made me think and that is the point of this discussion, not actually finding the answer to a question we can never really truly answer - who we are - but exploring that question and in doing so actually enact the connection and live that experience of the force in our conversation. Our simple conversation here has allowed me to know loudzoo in a way I never have before... that's really the point of asking the question again, wouldn't you agree??


See, this is why we need to start up the voice/cam chats again! We should look into setting up a weekly meetup like we used to to talk with voices instead of just text. For a lot of people it can be very helpful to hear the tone and whatnot.

Yea, you're right. There are new people with new ideas. In all honesty, I think I'm maybe a little bit jaded...I tend to feel like there are no more truly innovative/new ideas on such a topic. But that's wrong and it's intellectually lazy. :pinch:

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335069 by Lykeios Little Raven

Brenna wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Why do we keep asking the question?

We keep beating this dead horse to a second death. Pretty soon we'll have cooked horse (a la the slapping the chicken meme).

Why not just experience it for yourself?


I can get on board with cooked horse. As long as its stewed. Tough meat you know...

But it is actually a good question that I personally think has a simple answer. Because we are, through many avenues and for many reasons, programmed to think and intellectualize rather than feel and experience. And its a much easier place to start for most people, because if you take someone new to the concept and say "just experience it for yourself" the next question is going to be "But how? What do I do?"

To intellectualize is to be process driven. To be process driven is to want to know what it IS in order to participate in how it works. Getting past that takes time, whether you've been seeking it for 20 minutes or 20 years because no answer is really sufficient.

Or as the great green prophet once said "Unlearn what you have learned":side: D


(Emphasis is mine.) And THAT is another reason I responded the way I did initially. There's only so much good intellectual/philosophical discussion can do. The best way to learn most things is to get out and see/feel/encounter them for yourself. In the words of the fabulous Ms. Frizzle: "Take chances, make mistakes, get messy!!"

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335070 by Proteus
Replied by Proteus on topic What is the Force
As Jestor used to say: "We're just talking."

It's kind of like enjoying a song. (insert Alan Watts quote about the point of performing music here). :P

“For it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.”
― Bruce Lee

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5 years 3 weeks ago - 5 years 3 weeks ago #335071 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the Force

Brenna wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Why do we keep asking the question?

We keep beating this dead horse to a second death. Pretty soon we'll have cooked horse (a la the slapping the chicken meme).

Why not just experience it for yourself?

... But it is actually a good question that I personally think has a simple answer. Because we are, through many avenues and for many reasons, programmed to think and intellectualize rather than feel and experience.

Akh, always that pesky darn curiosity getting in the way of some good ole woo-woo nonsense. Say since when is that anti-intellectualism a defensible position anyway? I distinctly remember there being a code line about peace over emotion, knowledge over ignorance, harmony over chaos... you know, all the things pursued by the intellect and its reason and destroyed by caprice and its passions? If that was the easy and intuitive thing to do, why would it need to be in there at all as well? How can you look at people preaching on - often literally and in all seriousness - about mysterious magical forces or powers, special senses and spirits, and say that yes, clearly, the overwhelming prevalence of all of that is entirely consistent with or may even be in part because of people being generally all about intellect over feeling? Some are, sure, and they are in my experience seen as the bad guys, always on the edge because of their heresy, always under watch lest the trouble they make be too much after all.


Lykeios wrote: The best way to learn most things is to get out and see/feel/encounter them for yourself.

It's also the best way to get them horribly horribly wrong, because if all I have to go by is my own judgement with all my personal failings and biases woven right into it, why on earth would I expect anything useful out of that? This is not to say that I am wrong in most or even many of my judgements, but I sure wouldn't know one way or another if there wasn't anyone else to bounce ideas around with. Frankly, I can learn far more from listening to other people do that than I can from just conjuring up my own. Sure, go out and see and feel and encounter things for yourself, I'm sure it will feel more fulfilling than the alternative, but never think that this is the best learning you'll have had. There is no mistake awful enough to not creep in if that's how low the standard is.

Better to leave questions unanswered than answers unquestioned
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335072 by Lykeios Little Raven
I'm not saying we shouldn't ever talk about it or be "anti-intellectual" about it.

I'm just saying we ask this question SO MUCH. *shrug*

Maybe I'm just wrong and shouldn't have asked the question. That's always a probability.

“Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man.” -Zhuangzi

“Though, as the crusade presses on, I find myself altogether incapable of staying here in saftey while others shed their blood for such a noble and just cause. For surely must the Almighty be with us even in the sundering of our nation. Our fight is for freedom, for liberty, and for all the principles upon which that aforementioned nation was built.” - Patrick “Madman of Galway” O'Dell
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5 years 3 weeks ago #335073 by Loudzoo
Replied by Loudzoo on topic What is the Force
Whenever we try and define the non-dual with a dualistic approach we’ll end up with an incomplete and unsatisactory answer. What we can learn objectively is important and what we know / feel / think subjectively is important. While we view one in opposition to the other, reconciliation and integration will continue to evade us. Using both has the potential to reveal a much richer picture. It will still only create a map - but the map will be much better than those produced via one method only.

Many of us find the ‘woo-woo’ part inoffensive, allegorical and helpful. It can be problematic if understood literally. That is a genuine concern, but there is much truth in the simple statements some have made regarding wholeness, transcendence and immanence. For those of us who have had visceral mystical experience it is often the most ‘real’ aspect of what we know. Different words, diversity of definition and experience are not problematic. It’s fun to share, but agreement becomes inherent in the discussion. There isn’t actually much to discuss!

In this thread, we’ve mainly been trying to pave a more rigorous, systematic, scientifically coherent road. In many ways, this is a much harder job - as evidenced by the spirited discussion so far. Loose definitions are not tolerated, metaphor alone is unsatisfactory, evidence and data are needed where it may be challenging to provide. All our usual tools of communication are unsatisfactory on this road.

Maybe it is impossible to square a circle - many have tried, and none have succeeded (to my knowledge) - but I do believe there is a way.

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