What is the Force

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10 Mar 2019 11:30 - 10 Mar 2019 11:38 #335349 by Ambert The Traveller

Gisteron wrote:

Ambert The Traveller wrote: There is always interdependence in measurements.

Two observables are conjugates of each other if and only if a state of one can be transformed into a state of the other via a Fourier transform. Because of that, of course, there can only ever be as many as one quantity paired to another. Different times and places have no uncertainty between them, neither do you and I, or different sizes. Knowing where "here" is does in no way preclude you from knowing where "there" is, but because momentum is essentially (i.e. barring a constant) a time derivative of location, the order in which you measure them matters, and as you narrow down the variance of one, the variance of the other diverges.


Thank you for this excellent description of interdependence as expressed in quantum theory. So, here we have observables and quantities. And we have an order of measurements. And we find, that when we narrow down the first measure, the
variance of the second one diverges. Which means that the more we know about the first one, the less we can say about the second one.

From there, the following lines of thought may arise:
1) As I am doing the first measurement, what can really know about the second? While I am defining a quantity or force or any other concept, what all is it that eludes capture due to the increasing variance of what my definition does not capture? 2) There is also the observer effect - the theory that simply observing a situation or phenomenon necessarily changes that phenomenon.

But the observer is still measuring, comparing at this point.

3) What is there when there is no measure at all? The ‘Copenhagen interpretation’ of quantum mechanics stated, that physical systems generally do not have definite properties prior to being measured (see Wikipedia or better for a reference). It even went as far as saying that a particle exists in all states at once until observed.

The act of measuring and conceptualizing the observed, giving them definite properties, causes a division between the observer and the observed. This takes away the sight that the observer and the observed in fact are one.

At this point we may be able to get a glimpse that underlying all the measurements and concepts, there is something else. A unity of everything. Depending on your context and available concepts you may want to name this unity the cosmic Force, God, the Dharma, the unknown (particle/wave state?), or the elephant. Halleluja.

In any case, any attempt of defining it will again introduce conceptualization and variance, and the challenge to agree on a common measurement.
Last edit: 10 Mar 2019 11:38 by Ambert The Traveller.
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10 Mar 2019 15:25 - 10 Mar 2019 15:35 #335359 by Gisteron
Replied by Gisteron on topic What is the Force

Ambert The Traveller wrote: Thank you for this excellent description of interdependence as expressed in quantum theory.

I did no such description.

So, here we have observables and quantities. And we have an order of measurements. And we find, that when we narrow down the first measure, the variance of the second one diverges. Which means that the more we know about the first one, the less we can say about the second one.

No. Uncertainty exists only between conjugate pairs of observables, like frequency and time (though from a theoretical perspective that example is a poor one as there exists no time operator) or momentum and location. It is not general. It is also not exactly about knowledge. "Uncertainty" is frankly a quite sloppy translation of "Unschärfe", a word that means something more like un-sharpness, fuzziness. It's not that you are ignorant of when a note is playing because you happen to know it's pitch exactly, nor are you ignorant of its pitch if it is a single oscillation, a single clap. Rather, the mere ability of the note to have a definite frequency is itself equivalent to it carrying on forever rather than playing at any time, because only an infinitely playing note can be assigned one and only one pitch unambiguously.


From there, the following lines of thought may arise:
1) As I am doing the first measurement, what can really know about the second? While I am defining a quantity or force or any other concept, what all is it that eludes capture due to the increasing variance of what my definition does not capture?

If the state expressed as a superposition of your quantity's/observable's eigenstates is integrable, then the other basis you can Fourier transform it into will be the basis of the one quantity that will "elude capture". After all, by doing the measurement you are filtering out all but a few components. To stick with the music example, if you are filtering out the pitches of your piece of music, the narrower a frequency band you let pass through your filter, the less you will be able to identify when in the track the note you are narrowing in on was playing.


2) There is also the observer effect - the theory that simply observing a situation or phenomenon necessarily changes that phenomenon.

But the observer is still measuring, comparing at this point.

I'm beginning to feel this is way, way off topic...
Suppose you have a bucket of water you wish to know the temperature of. Suppose also that the water is not exchanging heat with either the bucket or the environment. Now you drop your thermometer in the bucket. In general, the thermometer will not at first have the same temperature as the bucket. the two will exchange heat, equilibrate to a common temperature that you can read off the thermometer's display. To the extent to which you can trust your thermometer, you can trust that the temperature of the water now matches the one displayed. However, it is no longer the same temperature the water had before the measurement. Since you had several pounds of water but maybe a drop or so of mercury, it will be so close that that tiny discrepancy will not matter for your purposes.
Now imagine you do the same, but to a mere glass of water. You can still trust the measurement to reflect the initial temperature, but you know that trust must come with caution.
Now you measure a single drop of water. There is no telling how much your thermometer has changed the water's temperature. That reading, though accurate in the end, is almost certainly entirely unrepresentative of the sample's initial temperature and you know it.
This is the observer effect. You cannot measure anything without interfering with it. In many cases that interference is much weaker than the signal you are trying to capture, but if there was none at all, you wouldn't be measuring anything. It is not important whether there is a mind absorbing information either. You can automate the measurement, store the data on a hard drive and let it be displayed on a screen at a later date. The magnetic domains of your computer's hard disk will not suddenly swap between the screen displaying the numbers for noone to see and finally your reviewing them. The observer effect already occurred during the measurement and has nothing to do with your knowledge.


3) What is there when there is no measure at all? The ‘Copenhagen interpretation’ of quantum mechanics stated, that physical systems generally do not have definite properties prior to being measured (see Wikipedia or better for a reference). It even went as far as saying that a particle exists in all states at once until observed.

At the end of the day, what matters is how well the model predicts observations. I don't have a serious objection to people trying to make things more complicated than they need to be just because their intuition gets in their way, but these interpretations of quantum mechanics are not themselves the theory. They can either get in the way or not get in the way, but genuine understanding of matters of science begins and ends with constructing the predictive model. Its subsequent interpretations hardly aid at all in that. They are fine to make if one so desires, one just should take care to not confuse them for the theory itself.

Last edit: 10 Mar 2019 15:35 by Gisteron.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Lykeios, Kyrin Wyldstar, Ambert The Traveller
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10 Mar 2019 18:01 #335365 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic What is the Force
Gist, that is one of the coolest descriptions of the uncertainty principle I have ever seen! Nice job, I am stealing that!

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12 Mar 2019 03:43 #335407 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force
I like this :D

"we can conceive of no radical separation between forming and being formed, and between substance and space and time…the universe is conceived as a continuum [in which] spatio-temporal events disclose themselves as "stresses" or "tensions" within the constitutive matrix…the cosmic matrix evolves in patterned flows…some flows hit upon configurations of intrinsic stability and thus survive, despite changes in their evolving environment…these we call systems."
~ Ervin Laszlo

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12 Mar 2019 03:58 #335408 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic What is the Force
Yea that's cute. But quoting others incoherant ramblings is really meaningless. What does that mean to you and when you describe it be prepared to defend it.

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12 Mar 2019 04:03 #335409 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force
Yeah that's cute, but it's posted there to provoke thought about the topic.

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12 Mar 2019 04:12 - 12 Mar 2019 04:13 #335411 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic What is the Force

Adder wrote: Yeah that's cute, but it's posted there to provoke thought about the topic.


Ahh avoidance of the subject matter because you dont really understand the content. Cute as well. How about you actually give us YOUR opinion.

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Last edit: 12 Mar 2019 04:13 by Kyrin Wyldstar.
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12 Mar 2019 04:44 #335412 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic What is the Force

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: Yeah that's cute, but it's posted there to provoke thought about the topic.


Ahh avoidance of the subject matter because you dont really understand the content. Cute as well. How about you actually give us YOUR opinion.


You love the false equivalency don't you! How about your replies have relevance to the topic instead of these daft derails.

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12 Mar 2019 06:27 #335414 by Kyrin Wyldstar
Replied by Kyrin Wyldstar on topic What is the Force

Adder wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote: Yeah that's cute, but it's posted there to provoke thought about the topic.


Ahh avoidance of the subject matter because you dont really understand the content. Cute as well. How about you actually give us YOUR opinion.


You love the false equivalency don't you! How about your replies have relevance to the topic instead of these daft derails.



Oh man... so I'm derailing now. Ok. Whatever. Come on back when you want to provide a real opinion instead of cut and paste someone elses, mr robot. Beep beep...hows that for relevant?

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