The Topic of Censorship and Banning

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18 Jun 2018 22:57 #323306 by Adder
Adder replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning
And deliberately using the 'wrong' pronoun is also a way to poke someone in the sly with the argument (that does exist out there among some) that the whole thing is nonsense and 'society will not accept transgender so stop doing it'!!!! We cannot ignore that unfortunate reality as its a form of harassment/attack/etc.

So we got;

1. honest accidents, which are not repeated when pointed out - but can happen for various reason and even repeat in some circumstances, and
2. dishonest deliberate use.

All incidences IMO should be considered to be 1, unless proven otherwise by explicit acknowledgement or obvious repeated misuse. But it raises the interesting point of how to police it, and if it is even needed.

Usually if someone called my the wrong gender as an insult it would not be the end of the world, but given the particular circumstances of seemingly the majoirty of transgender people having that condition of dysphoria and or dysmorphia, I think its fair to say its a false equivalency to judge it that way by imagining the same thing done to a non-transgender. It is insensitive to their suffering, by deliberately taking action that is likely to increase their suffering with pre-existing suffering.

I think that is probably a main point to remember in that type of discussion - that offending someone is different to insulting someone. The later is a good candidate for concern in moderation/administration IMO, and the former is less so.

'The future is already here – it's just not evenly distributed.' ~ William Gibson
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
Joined: Aug 2011..... TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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18 Jun 2018 23:12 - 18 Jun 2018 23:13 #323307 by Tellahane
Tellahane replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

Kit wrote: #1 we're talking about this one. It's a tough call because we strongly believe in "Publicly Praise. privately punish.". But you're right, banning isn't something that can keep quiet. Especially when it's involving new rules or lines, or any other reason that's not obvious for banning someone. If we do an announcement and why, we're airing out dirty laundry and making it more difficult for the individual to come back from that. If we just do an announcement and reply to PM questions, that leaves the grape vine still open and a likelihood of spawning rumors. If we say nothing, that keeps the rumor mill in full operation and it gets plenty of business here just as much as anywhere.

On that note, I'm interested in hearing suggestions on that since I'm seriously at a loss on how to properly handle future bannings.

The first thing I would do, if i were still in my position, is get the color changed on the name so a banned member still looks like a normal one. Then at the least you don't know if they are still here or simply walked away to take a personal break from things.

Second it should hopefully become public knowledge that the ban's are when it becomes necessary, and what is necessary clearly defined, in the case most recently commonly referred to its related to personal attacks. Or any obstructive behavior unbecoming of a "jedi"(though I leave the whole discussion of what that is out of it but rather a simple set of rules) where the behavior stops interfere's with someone else's ability to use the temple. Which is a hard thing to do and should be rare.

Kit wrote: #2 I believe this was brought up because I think we in general don't like to speak of people behind their backs. We tend to want to be upfront about it and not having the individual (Kyrin in this case) involved in the conversation means we're just poking at rumors, perceptions, and examples. I feel it crossed farther past decent dialog and into picking at a person. But I wasn't here for much longer past my one post in that thread, I had to catch up after it was locked.


You will never stop this from happening at any level, it may be "not nice" but its also impossible to stop. It would actually be part of bringing down civilization if we never talked about people when they weren't here. Now maybe specifically not talk about bad things but even then how we do discuss the issues. It would also stop a considerable amount of conversations and discussions that goes beyond closed doors in council too, and without giving away any particulars you know what I'm talking about hopefully. If you want to be super righteous about it.

I can somewhat imagine the post and how big it was in council thread when I resigned, my guess is only 3 pages max, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's another thread in a certain section with my name on it either.

Yes it can be easier to talk about someone when they aren't there, but why is that? Probably because your not willing to say whats really on your mind when they are present? I find that is usually for one of two reasons. One you don't want to feel the backlash of them raging out on you when you speak with honesty, and/or two you don't want to say it in an area that might hurt them in someway because you know it will, but that turns right around to the why can't you be honest about it kind of thing.

I've brought this up before and I feel it's an important Jedi Trait(not that anyone cares what I have to say about it) that you can take any and all criticism, negative or otherwise as positive. If someone is upset at you there's a reason for it. Maybe its nothing you did, maybe its all on them, maybe its all on a mistake you made, but there's always a reason and its always a valid one. One should take all criticism and at least consider the possibility if even for a moment of whether they are in the wrong or not. Because if you are, your at least opening your mind to the possibilities and not forcing yourself into a state where you are blindly walking forward. If you aren't, you at least considered it, worked on understanding the criticism and where it came from, and work to find a solution even if its entirely at the person providing the criticism.

Turn that into muscle memory and its no longer blame game or offend this or offend that and its now working together to better ourselves...together...Sounds a great deal better then a flame war? Yes easier said then done but that is what practice is for, practicing until its not difficult to do anymore.

Kit wrote: #3 was not the only cause. Reading Ros' post, I can see two things. That she was bringing the point up because it needed to be said, or it was a consideration along with the other reasons.

The reason pronouns are important are because they are a piece of us. I think just after a name, most people see themselves in those pronouns as an identity like our avatars. As much as many of us here identify as Jedi. I use to get seriously angry when people assumed I was male. Even with a female name and (in the case of games) female avatar. Ended up making a joke of it later, and now I couldn't care less. But I do understand the desire. We put a lot of stock in the kinds of energies we want to cultivate both within ourselves and in the person we show the world. Is it a request to be called by a term? yes. It's my request. It's dismissive at best, insulting at worst if my request is ignored. This is a simple case to be sure. And being human, we're not simple creatures. There's more involved (like emotions! damn things ;) ) I get that there's more insulting things to be called but in most cases, it doesn't take a lot of effort to stick in pronouns. Well...unless you're as forgetful as me >.>

Not to sound condescending, but I think there is a lesson about attachments here, and to point specifically out where you say you don't even care anymore nowadays, but look at the path you took to get there. You were offended at first, you worked to understood it, you realized its not really a big deal, became less attached, used joking as a method to ease yourself and now you not only realize it doesn't matter as much but you have a very strong understanding of people at different parts of that path and what they go through because you yourself went through it.

It's those types of things we should be focusing the most on here at the temple, recognizing someones difficulty, pairing them up with someone who has been there, and working your way through it together. Apprenticeships should be based off that and honestly I think being only one "teaching master" to one apprentice idea should go away because there are people with different experiences in different area's you can learn from. We have history teachers and math teachers and music teachers and other specialties in our education systems for a reason, so why be so restricted here? I can understand the need for a main teaching master as a general guide, but I do think people should be sent to others for specific lesson(s) of guidance in area's they struggle in.

Kit wrote: Why does this particular subject has such vehement following right now?


Because there has been too much of it already, you change the climate to be a winter all year round and everyone gets used to snow blowers, shovels, and jackets, turn around and make it 80 degrees and sunny and people don't know what to do. Kinda like when texas gets hit with the every so rare snow storm, they get 1 inch of snow and the interstates are shut down. Up here they laugh at shutting down interstates for snow unless its 2feet or more, or winds are in excess of like 45mph.

There was such an influx of drama that it became the norm to discuss, peoples rights became the norm to discuss, as I'm sure I'll draw hate for saying it the snowflake syndrome that came into the temple, because its everywhere, its in social media its in our day to day lives so people bring that here, and it should be the opposite. This should be a focus of sanctuary and peace, and people should be coming here to bring that back into their lives, that should be the focus. There should be more discussion on jedi philosophy and more written articles by apprentices and members and knights/council alike on their personal experiences and triumphs and failures in their path and what they learned from them and sharing of good stories and positive things.

It doesn't mean we can't discuss the darker things in life when they need discussed but this place is more like match.com where you come in set up a profile chat with various people find a good match then wander off somewhere else for apprenticeship and don't come back until its time to do it all over again.

But what do I know? I supposedly "quit" because it got "too hard" and I "Failed" and don't "deserve to be here" according to some members here.
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2018 23:13 by Tellahane.
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18 Jun 2018 23:25 #323308 by Kit
Kit replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning
You bring up a lot of good points and I want to address them fully. I'll be occupied with family time here soon and I don't want to short-change you an answer. Especially when you took the time to explain so well! So I'll get back with you probably tomorrow on this.

Thank you for your reply hun. I seriously am considering it with the same weight as I would anyone else.
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18 Jun 2018 23:51 #323309 by ren
ren replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

The first thing I would do, if i were still in my position, is get the color changed on the name so a banned member still looks like a normal one. Then at the least you don't know if they are still here or simply walked away to take a personal break from things.


I'm being asked to look into creating a special rank with less rights than registered users...

I don't think it's a problem to know there's dirty laudry, but there's no need to do it in public either you know?

"Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies."

DAT SIG THO
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18 Jun 2018 23:59 #323310 by Tellahane
Tellahane replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

ren wrote:

The first thing I would do, if i were still in my position, is get the color changed on the name so a banned member still looks like a normal one. Then at the least you don't know if they are still here or simply walked away to take a personal break from things.


I'm being asked to look into creating a special rank with less rights than registered users...

I don't think it's a problem to know there's dirty laudry, but there's no need to do it in public either you know?


Go digging for it, at one point I threw out an idea that we should have a restricted rank where all they can do is post in journals and in a private area just like minors do, where they can still interact with their TM's if they have one but restricted everywhere else. I think when I looked into it before the permission system the way it cascaded made that difficult to maintain existing rank and just have that restriction put on I think you have to actually reduce someone to that restricted state and then be reverted to when you came out of it.

But I think in the design in addition to current training there would be a slew of lessons you had to complete before you can even apply to come off said restriction, ones usually related to the offense that put you there.
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19 Jun 2018 00:13 #323311 by ren
ren replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning
The lessons thing has happened and failed. They either don't get completed at all, and then there's the issue of adoption of those lessons. Some people simply don't want to.

"Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies."

DAT SIG THO

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19 Jun 2018 00:32 #323313 by Tellahane
Tellahane replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

ren wrote: The lessons thing has happened and failed. They either don't get completed at all, and then there's the issue of adoption of those lessons. Some people simply don't want to.

Too bad? I guess my followup question is that a failure of the student, in which case different lessons are needed, a failure of the teacher, or both?
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20 Jun 2018 00:13 #323349 by Kit
Kit replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

Tellahane wrote:

Kit wrote: #1 we're talking about this one. It's a tough call because we strongly believe in "Publicly Praise. privately punish.". But you're right, banning isn't something that can keep quiet. Especially when it's involving new rules or lines, or any other reason that's not obvious for banning someone. If we do an announcement and why, we're airing out dirty laundry and making it more difficult for the individual to come back from that. If we just do an announcement and reply to PM questions, that leaves the grape vine still open and a likelihood of spawning rumors. If we say nothing, that keeps the rumor mill in full operation and it gets plenty of business here just as much as anywhere.

On that note, I'm interested in hearing suggestions on that since I'm seriously at a loss on how to properly handle future bannings.

The first thing I would do, if i were still in my position, is get the color changed on the name so a banned member still looks like a normal one. Then at the least you don't know if they are still here or simply walked away to take a personal break from things.

Second it should hopefully become public knowledge that the ban's are when it becomes necessary, and what is necessary clearly defined, in the case most recently commonly referred to its related to personal attacks. Or any obstructive behavior unbecoming of a "jedi"(though I leave the whole discussion of what that is out of it but rather a simple set of rules) where the behavior stops interfere's with someone else's ability to use the temple. Which is a hard thing to do and should be rare.


I thought about the color change too. But I find it handy when the color shows up for actual trolls. But maybe it would serve better as the same color anyways.

I think that the TOU is what we’ll be following for banning rules. I think I remember seeing that was the idea but I’m still catching up with a lot.

Tellahane wrote:

Kit wrote: #2 I believe this was brought up because I think we in general don't like to speak of people behind their backs. We tend to want to be upfront about it and not having the individual (Kyrin in this case) involved in the conversation means we're just poking at rumors, perceptions, and examples. I feel it crossed farther past decent dialog and into picking at a person. But I wasn't here for much longer past my one post in that thread, I had to catch up after it was locked.


You will never stop this from happening at any level, it may be "not nice" but its also impossible to stop. It would actually be part of bringing down civilization if we never talked about people when they weren't here. Now maybe specifically not talk about bad things but even then how we do discuss the issues. It would also stop a considerable amount of conversations and discussions that goes beyond closed doors in council too, and without giving away any particulars you know what I'm talking about hopefully. If you want to be super righteous about it.

I can somewhat imagine the post and how big it was in council thread when I resigned, my guess is only 3 pages max, and it wouldn't surprise me if there's another thread in a certain section with my name on it either.

Yes it can be easier to talk about someone when they aren't there, but why is that? Probably because your not willing to say whats really on your mind when they are present? I find that is usually for one of two reasons. One you don't want to feel the backlash of them raging out on you when you speak with honesty, and/or two you don't want to say it in an area that might hurt them in someway because you know it will, but that turns right around to the why can't you be honest about it kind of thing.

I've brought this up before and I feel it's an important Jedi Trait(not that anyone cares what I have to say about it) that you can take any and all criticism, negative or otherwise as positive. If someone is upset at you there's a reason for it. Maybe its nothing you did, maybe its all on them, maybe its all on a mistake you made, but there's always a reason and its always a valid one. One should take all criticism and at least consider the possibility if even for a moment of whether they are in the wrong or not. Because if you are, your at least opening your mind to the possibilities and not forcing yourself into a state where you are blindly walking forward. If you aren't, you at least considered it, worked on understanding the criticism and where it came from, and work to find a solution even if its entirely at the person providing the criticism.

Turn that into muscle memory and its no longer blame game or offend this or offend that and its now working together to better ourselves...together...Sounds a great deal better then a flame war? Yes easier said then done but that is what practice is for, practicing until its not difficult to do anymore.


I’m sorry, I didn’t mean to sound super righteous about it, my feelings on this are very very mixed so I defaulted to the ‘honorable’ answer. You’re absolutely right (you would know hehe). 99% of what gets talked about in Council is about people. Something made me realize recently that we talk a lot about people in Council without often being in contact with that individual so they can give responses. I’m thinking of ways to change that. I tried an interview with one and I feel like it went really well. We’ll see how it works out in the end but I sure feel better involving the person in the process too. I once also PM’d a different person what I had written about them in Council. Because it was my job to “judge” this person, but I felt it wasn’t right to just talk about them. I’m not sure how that went over. It wasn’t flattering, and I’m concerned that for them, it WASN’T the right thing to do because of our relationship not being at that level. It could easily been conceived as an “attack” and had the taste of ‘holier than thou’. So a lot of me wishes I hadn’t done that.

I agree, I think honestly examining criticism is one of the most important traits to learn, and one of the hardest too. But there’s still an appropriate way to do it :) But that line’s gonna be different for everyone. Both for their experiences, how tough their skin is, and how the criticism is delivered. In the case of Kyrin’s thread, it was more of a ganging up than a discussion. I know it was brought about, and other threads spawned, because we don’t have a policy to address these things in a way that members trust and understand.

Tellahane wrote:

Kit wrote: #3 was not the only cause. Reading Ros' post, I can see two things. That she was bringing the point up because it needed to be said, or it was a consideration along with the other reasons.

The reason pronouns are important are because they are a piece of us. I think just after a name, most people see themselves in those pronouns as an identity like our avatars. As much as many of us here identify as Jedi. I use to get seriously angry when people assumed I was male. Even with a female name and (in the case of games) female avatar. Ended up making a joke of it later, and now I couldn't care less. But I do understand the desire. We put a lot of stock in the kinds of energies we want to cultivate both within ourselves and in the person we show the world. Is it a request to be called by a term? yes. It's my request. It's dismissive at best, insulting at worst if my request is ignored. This is a simple case to be sure. And being human, we're not simple creatures. There's more involved (like emotions! damn things ;) ) I get that there's more insulting things to be called but in most cases, it doesn't take a lot of effort to stick in pronouns. Well...unless you're as forgetful as me >.>

Not to sound condescending, but I think there is a lesson about attachments here, and to point specifically out where you say you don't even care anymore nowadays, but look at the path you took to get there. You were offended at first, you worked to understood it, you realized its not really a big deal, became less attached, used joking as a method to ease yourself and now you not only realize it doesn't matter as much but you have a very strong understanding of people at different parts of that path and what they go through because you yourself went through it.

It's those types of things we should be focusing the most on here at the temple, recognizing someones difficulty, pairing them up with someone who has been there, and working your way through it together. Apprenticeships should be based off that and honestly I think being only one "teaching master" to one apprentice idea should go away because there are people with different experiences in different area's you can learn from. We have history teachers and math teachers and music teachers and other specialties in our education systems for a reason, so why be so restricted here? I can understand the need for a main teaching master as a general guide, but I do think people should be sent to others for specific lesson(s) of guidance in area's they struggle in.


I didn’t think about it as an attachment lesson but I can see that. Thinking about it, it is very similar to a lot of attachments to the term “Jedi” I see people go through lol.

We’ve actually batted around the idea of other ways of going through the apprenticeships. Sending apprentices to SMEs (Subject Matter Experts) for a set of lessons. Or an apprentice belonging to a Mentor where they work together to decide where the training would benefit the apprentice and sending them off to SMEs and most of the lessons will be done with other trainers instead of just one. I like the idea because you get well-rounded instruction from folks who know what they’re talking about and have that experience. I know not everyone’s thrilled with the Master/apprentice paring, everyone learns different, so having different options would be beneficial. I think it’d open more available people for apprentice positions too because the weight won’t be entirely on one pair of shoulders. I know a several folks who are terrified of the idea of being responsible for the entire training of an apprentice. The chance to fail is much higher with only one teacher involved…anyways that’s a process for another day.

Tellahane wrote:

Kit wrote: Why does this particular subject has such vehement following right now?


Because there has been too much of it already, you change the climate to be a winter all year round and everyone gets used to snow blowers, shovels, and jackets, turn around and make it 80 degrees and sunny and people don't know what to do. Kinda like when texas gets hit with the every so rare snow storm, they get 1 inch of snow and the interstates are shut down. Up here they laugh at shutting down interstates for snow unless its 2feet or more, or winds are in excess of like 45mph.

There was such an influx of drama that it became the norm to discuss, peoples rights became the norm to discuss, as I'm sure I'll draw hate for saying it the snowflake syndrome that came into the temple, because its everywhere, its in social media its in our day to day lives so people bring that here, and it should be the opposite. This should be a focus of sanctuary and peace, and people should be coming here to bring that back into their lives, that should be the focus. There should be more discussion on jedi philosophy and more written articles by apprentices and members and knights/council alike on their personal experiences and triumphs and failures in their path and what they learned from them and sharing of good stories and positive things.

It doesn't mean we can't discuss the darker things in life when they need discussed but this place is more like match.com where you come in set up a profile chat with various people find a good match then wander off somewhere else for apprenticeship and don't come back until its time to do it all over again.

But what do I know? I supposedly "quit" because it got "too hard" and I "Failed" and don't "deserve to be here" according to some members here.


Hey now, there’s plenty of places in Texas that get snow every year!! ….it just doesn’t always stick to the road lol.

I get what you’re saying though. I really miss when this place was a sanctuary. I hope we can work our way back there again. I would love this to be the kind of place where important things are discussed. Good, dark, triumphs, failures, overwhelming emotions, philosophies, all of it. Whatever it is that’s important to anyone. On slowflakes, I feel that there is a balance somewhere. Some people are truly…coddled I guess. But I don’t feel that being dismissive helps anything. I think that a good ‘give and take’ relationship usually works. Like it’s really not that much of an effort for me to use a requested pronoun. There may be some adjustment time but still! On the other hand, I can’t eat while upside-down for you because you think it’s against someone’s religion to do otherwise. (sorry I couldn’t think of anything else LOL)

The big thing here is a culture shift. We need to start ‘rewarding’ what we want to see and stop feeding what we don’t.

Sorry this took so long. Been a crazy day :3
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20 Jun 2018 01:51 #323352 by Tellahane
Tellahane replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

Kit wrote: We need to start ‘rewarding’ what we want to see and stop feeding what we don’t.

Sorry this took so long. Been a crazy day :3


It's fine, and thank you for the exemplary reply, but the above caught my attention the most. Probably one that hasn't had much thought put into it but what would be a "reward"? perhaps that should be a discussion of its own thread. I think one would fine that especially those who kind follow a more taoist approach to jediism that reward is not needed, that one should do good deeds unnoticed, but for those who follow a more "balanced" approach, you can't punish the trolls without rewarding the non-trolls so perhaps the issue isn't dealing with the problems its the temple is not dealing with the successes? Maybe even that's why some knights leave rank, I may even have to put some thought into it on my own experiences...

Things to think about!

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20 Jun 2018 04:54 #323363 by Gisteron
Gisteron replied the topic: The Topic of Censorship and Banning

Tellahane wrote: The first thing I would do, if i were still in my position, is get the color changed on the name so a banned member still looks like a normal one. Then at the least you don't know if they are still here or simply walked away to take a personal break from things.

It'd sure help with the uncomfortable why-questions, wouldn't it... More secrecy, that'll sure inspire more trust... And deserved one at that, right?

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