Las Vegas...

JamesSand wrote:

We started with simple spears. They ARE a part of our humanity since we're not physically armed like lions, tigers, and bears.

Yes, so one day they handed out spears to everyone.

The next morning, Barry wasn't at the the tribal breakfast, and Richard was wearing a new bracelet that looked a lot like one Barry used to own.

So, the Chief decided maybe Richard shouldn't have a spear, because he seemed to have sort of missed the point that the spears were to protect the tribe against external threats, not to acquire new bracelets - and while he was at it, he thought maybe the children shouldn't be given spears yet either until they understood what they were for.


Wouldn't it be nice if Jedi thought of everyone as being a part of their tribe, and couldn't think of a reason to carry spears, or a reason to see others as not being a part of their tribe and thus needing spears to use against them?



Or keep living thinking everyone else is your potential enemy and arming yourself against spooks and other fears rather than trying to create a world where everyone in your tribe has enough of their needs met that they don't feel the need to use spears against each other.



Ask yourself, before you decide you might need a spear - are you a child, or perhaps a Richard?

Maybe you shouldn't have spears.

Warning: Spoiler!

I guess the take away "Is it worth living in a world of fear of violence? If that is what you believe the world is,
why make such effort to keep yourself safe to stay in it?"

James I have had my life put at risk by others actions not once but twice. The first time endangered not just me but my brother and his pregnant girlfriend. Crime has existed since we first codified law and if you got ideas on eliminating it perfectly and totally please let the UN and various national governments know. Until you can do that I enjoy life and most of the time its safe. But when its not you had better have the tools to handle yourself or it might not just be you that suffers for it. So I arm myself with tools to preserve my life and the lives of others. That means a first aid kit, a fire extinguisher, and yes firearms. I've never in my life needed a fire extinguisher because I am careful but I cant count on others leaving me in peace so I have needed a firearm not once but twice. And as for the whats the point if you live in fear it's not living in fear to realize there are bad people out there that are willing do you harm and 911 won't be there for at least 3 to 5 minutes. So you best be able to survive at least that long. That is as common sense as keeping a first aid kit. Sure you dont plan to cut yourself prepping dinner but it happens. Same thing with violence. Only you at least have some control over household accidents, not so much the actions of others.

I don't think it's that simple. Especially given the fact that his crime wasn't possession but his actions. Whatever he used, his crime wasn't theft and murder. Taking the spear doesn't change what's going on inside his heart..

The Chief's inability to change the heart of the man should show us that government can't fix this through bans or other unlawful infringement..

I agree that an improvement of environment helps greatly. However, some folks have strong clepto impulse.

So I arm myself with tools to preserve my life and the lives of others.

"Do unto others before they do unto me" is a valid enough belief system. I have not seen it used much in Jedi teachings, but maybe I missed it.

realize there are bad people out there

Ah, the infamous "evil gene"

When will we come up with a, for lack of a better word - solution to that I wonder?

Only you at least have some control over household accidents, not so much the actions of others.

Dropping a soapy knife on your foot is not the same as another person's intent.

Treating "The Evil People" as an "accident you need to be prepared for" is...hmm, let's say inhuman.


I'm plucking ideas out of nowhere here, but as an example - have you ever been to a methadone clinic, or perhaps a family court when a parent is told they can't see their children? (These are in no way the extent of what causes people to be "bad" I'm just throwing a few out there)

See the people, see the symptoms, see the humanity.

Do you want to "treat" that with violence? (I couldn't care less if you walk the streets with a rolling pin or a firearm, it's the same thought process)

James I have had my life put at risk by others actions not once but twice.

It's 9am and I've had my life put at risk by others' actions more than that already - If you think the only time people's behaviour is a risk to you is when they are literally saying "I want to hurt you right now" then you're not paying attention.

In any case, as much as I'd love to carpet bomb the world and be perfectly safe all on my lonesome, it's not practical - nor is me taking an "me or them" attitude towards every incident.

I'm not anti-gun. Guns are tools, and have a practical purpose (like 'sploding foxes, or deer)

I am anti-"I need to be prepared to kill people in my community at the drop of a hat"

There is nothing in the Jedi teachings that stop you from defending yourself and in fact many things that could be taken as a mandate to do so. Its not preemptive attacking people. It's in the moment defense of life.

Its not a gene is willingly made choices.

No its not inhumane its a logical response to the fact that there are people out there that will rob, rape or kill you and I do not care about their reasoning. Their issues are not a chain on me to be a victim. Being prepared to defend your life or the life of others against a direct and clear threat is a natural right that all living creatures hold. And no amount of sympathy for the people being the aggressor is going to change the fact that they made the choice to try to hurt others. Anything that happens to them in the course of that is their own fault.

Self Defence? sure

Leaving the house with a Spear is not Self Defence, it is a clear declaration you intend to do some hunting that day.


In other pointless quibbling;

Being prepared to defend your life or the life of others against a direct and clear threat is a natural right that all living creatures hold. And no amount of sympathy for the people being the aggressor is going to change the fact that they made the choice to try to hurt others. Anything that happens to them in the course of that is their own fault.

I will assume then that you oppose the culling of sharks or crocodiles (or bears, or whatever is near you) in reaction to their inalienable right to defend themselves against what they see as direct threats (or food) in their world?


Or is it really just whoever has access to the biggest spears has the biggest...right to life?


Most governments have access to a military - a military that exists for the explicit purpose of providing a direct and clear threat to that country's....let's say competitors....

My country has a military force, your country has bigger spears.

Would you support your country in turning mine into a crater?

(I wouldn't blame you if you did, I'm just wondering where your "line" is for violence? The Bad Man on the Poorly Lit Street is a fine example, but if you live in Utah, I am a threat to your way of life - I am invested in turning that entire place into a mine, for my profit, with no regard for the interests of the people who live, or holiday, or have ancient traditions there - Let's pretend you live in Utah, do you want to commit violence against me? I'm sitting in a cafe, typing away on my laptop, drinking a latte. For all my apparent innocence, I am probably the boogeyman to someone.)

How does the right to carry a weapon equate to turning your country into a crater? I'm not understanding the logic?

Leaving the house with a gun is no clear indication that you intend to use it on anyone. Do you carry a pocket knife? Is carrying one a sign you want to stab someone? Is carrying a lighter a sign you want to burn down buildings? No, they are tools, how they are used or misused by others is not a sign of the intent of all who carry them. A firearm can be used to go to the range, it can be used to defend my life if need be, it can be used to hunt or it could be used to rob a store. Just having it shows no intent to do anything other than carrying/own it.

I am only for the deliberate culling of an animal species that is overpopulated and has too few predators to keep them from starving to death. (Or hunting for food but to me, that is not culling in the sense that I feel you meant it )

A military like a gun is for defense. Having one is not a threat. It's a sign you are willing to use force if need be to preserve your own safety. Further, I am not for preemptively attacking a person. A lethal threat is something you seem to be deliberately misunderstanding or at least pretending to. A lethal threat for lawful use of force needs three things Capability: Can the threat enact lethal force through size disparity, number disparity, or the use of a tool, Opportunity: Is the threat in range to use that means of lethal force, Intent: Is that threat at this moment displaying a willingness via word or deed to use that threat. This is called the deadly force triangle and you need all three sides for it to be a justified use of force.

How does the right to carry a weapon equate to turning your country into a crater? I'm not understanding the logic?

Nothing to do with it at all - I have no interest in the "right to carry a gun"

I have a right to carry a gun, sometimes I do carry a gun (and a big knife), and generally, it is on days when I plan to kill something.

I arm myself with a fairly clear intent to cause massive trauma to a living creature.

Leaving the house with a gun is no clear indication that you intend to use it on anyone. Do you carry a pocket knife? Is carrying one a sign you want to stab someone? Is carrying a lighter a sign you want to burn down buildings?

I carry a pocket knife, and I use it to cut things, I carry a lighter, and I use it t start fires.

As above - when I carry a gun (and a big knife) I use it to kill things, not because I might lose my pocket knife and want to shoot open a tin of beans.

A firearm can be used to go to the range, it can be used to defend my life if need be, it can be used to hunt or it could be used to rob a store. Just having it shows no intent to do anything other than carrying/own it.

Are you hunting or going to the range every day?

As I've said, I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti rationalising a violent mindset.

I'm just as opposed to people who wear activewear but don't go to the gym

I am only for the deliberate culling of an animal species that is overpopulated and has too few predators to keep them from starving to death. (Or hunting for food but to me, that is not culling in the sense that I feel you meant it )

Well, I agree with you there, we should definitely be culling at least one species

I use guns to kill things - I have absolutely no issues with the concept of guns, or gun ownership, or of making something die due t having a bloody ragged hole in it -

I have a problem with the idea that you see your world as so full of "Bad People" that instead of trying to find out why your entire world has gone so horribly wrong, you go "well, that can't be solved, I'll just shoot the bad people when I see them"

Are you just sort of hoping that enough people will be involved in violence that they get bored?

Who puts down the spears first?

I'm not one to carry a gun. Never have unless hunting. But I don't think it's wise to claim everyone who carries a gun does so from a violent mindset. That type of generalization doesn't help the conversation. Be mindful of the fact that what makes sense to you won't for others.

JamesSand wrote: As I've said, I'm not anti-gun, I'm anti rationalising a violent mindset.

I have a problem with the idea that you see your world as so full of "Bad People" that instead of trying to find out why your entire world has gone so horribly wrong, you go "well, that can't be solved, I'll just shoot the bad people when I see them"

Are you just sort of hoping that enough people will be involved in violence that they get bored?

Who puts down the spears first?

Ok this conversation will go no further if you insist on strawmanning me. I do not have the mindset of shoot bad people when I see them. I am of the mindset that if attacked I will use the amount of force that I need to, to preserve my life or the lives of those around me. Not even close to the same.

With that out of the way do need a fire extinguisher daily? A first aid kit? No? Then why own them? Because things DO go wrong and when they do you do not have time to hope someone else comes along with those items. Same thing with a firearm. I carry a first aid kit in my cargo pocket or backpack every day for the same reason I carry a gun every day. Because if the worst happens I do not want to be one of the people running around with no clue what to do and no tools to do it with even if I had a clue.

Violent people will never go away. Unless you intend to lobotomize all of mankind and outlaw being able to have nice things there are always going to be those willing to hurt you for what you have or because they are upset with you or for any other justification you care to come up with. That means we will always need a means to defend ourselves. You cannot fix all of mankind and you cannot git rid of crime nor can police be everywhere. You live in Australia, your nation dedicated to banning most guns and outlaw much of what is legal defense wise here in the US. Yet you still have biker gangs making submachine guns in garages and hidden factories. Laws mean nothing to the man set on hurting you or taking what you have. What it does do is get innocent people trying to keep their families and property safe in trouble.