All of us need to unite

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6 years 11 months ago #282220 by
Replied by on topic All of us need to unite
You might like to check out anarchism (no not the kind that the media always shows, that is not anarchism)
In particular more recent projects such as Christiania in Denmark, or check out the Barcelona anarchist society during the Spanish civil war, perhaps even the way tribal societies in the amazon operate. It is my belief that anarchism is inevitable as it is what occurs naturally to us and I believe nature always operates in cycles, whether anarchism is brought about by our current systems destructive ways or by a conscious revolution of the minds of the masses is another thing altogether.

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6 years 11 months ago #282227 by
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Socialism brought us Hitler and Mussolini, Communism brought us Stalin, Tribalism has brought us, uh, the Congo? Capitalism has brought us, uh the best quality of life the world has ever known...

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6 years 11 months ago - 6 years 11 months ago #282228 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic All of us need to unite
If unity is the goal, then the most accommodating structure is going to be the one with the most capacity to accommodate the greatest diversity? Can you have anarchy that isn't just survival of the fittest at the cost of the weaker? If not then the only difference between that condition of no government (anarchy) and some form of successful evolving government (such as capitalism) could be the nature of power in motion, with anarchy being physical and capitalism being economies. The human nature in both extremes seems to remain unchanged, rather its just the capacity to organize human energy at more diverse levels of order increases with governance. And at least in complex systems there can be subsystems to define and counter 'bad' conduct... which if given the capacity to change and evolve does mean it could continue to improve - if participants focus is appropriate on improving it.

The word economy itself derives from managing ones household, which feels naturally part of human behaviour to me, to be materialistic as a function of survival. So I wouldn't say anarchy is natural for humans, while abundant in non-human animals, it seems what is natural for humans is to be social (ie safe, even if its just a partner) and to consume. What is the best way to manage the impacts of that is another question for sure, but efficiency would I imagine have to be integral, and efficiency is part of management, not abandonment of management.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 6 years 11 months ago by Adder.
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6 years 11 months ago #282239 by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic All of us need to unite

then the most accommodating structure is going to be the one with the most capacity to accommodate


Hexagons. We'll need to build it from hexagons.

Capitalism has brought us, uh the best quality of life the world has ever known...

It's hard for me to argue the point from my super computer sitting on a leather couch, eating mint chocolate wafers at a custom built timber coffee table whilst some ultra-high definition guy tries to sell me an air-roaster from a 1.6m Magic Window., but still...

Are we happier for our longer, healthier, more luxurious lives?

efficiency is part of management, not abandonment of management.

My usual slogan for this is "If you can't be part of the solution, make money being part of the problem"
but essentially I agree - Don't remove from yourself from the system, and then complain the system doesn't work. (Or since we are peddling anarchism, "Bring it down from the inside" )
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6 years 11 months ago #282289 by rugadd
Replied by rugadd on topic All of us need to unite
Comparing how happy we are to a reality that doesn't exist is a losing battle.

rugadd

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6 years 10 months ago #282428 by Whyte Horse
Replied by Whyte Horse on topic All of us need to unite

Adder wrote:

Whyte Horse wrote: I see people acting rationally in a system that is defective(capitalism). It produces inequality and causes people to do crazy things like ruin their habitat, drop bombs on babies, etc.


I don't think capitalism is the lowest common denominator in that sort of conduct, rather its 'human', and occurs in different systems then capitalism as well. If we are talking about the flow of power in populations, then at least in capitalism the people are integrated in the flow of activity and can choose where to spend. Have you read 'The God of the Machine' by Isabel Paterson? It explains government in mechanistic terms like flow and levers and safety valves, but is quite pro-capitalism... it might be interesting to see a different perspective. I found it a great way to interpret political history, not sure if its correct, but its fun and different if not a bit heavy at times.

Oh, and that book/pdf was written over 70 years ago, so uses some old language like 'savages' as distinct from 'barbarians' LOL.

Check this out: "Modern industrial civilization has developed within a system of convenient myths. The driving force has been individual material gain, which is accepted as legitimate, even praiseworthy, on grounds that private vices yield public benefits in the classic formulation. It has long been understood very well that a society based on this principal will destroy itself in time. It can only persist with whatever suffering and injustice it entails as long as it is possible to pretend that the destructive forces that humans create are limited, that the world is an infinite resource and that the world is an infinite garbage can. At this stage in history one of two things is possible. Either the general population will take control of its own destiny and will concern itself with community interests guided by values of solidarity, sympathy and concern for others or alternatively there will be no destiny for anyone to control. As long as some specialized class is in a position of authority, it is going to set policy for the special interests that it serves. But the conditions of survival let alone justice require rational social planning in the interests of the community as a whole and by now that means the global community. The question is whether privileged elites should dominate mass communication and should use this power as they tell us they must, namely to impose necessary illusions to manipulate and deceive the “stupid majority” and remove them from the public arena. The question in brief is whether democracy and freedom are values to be preserved or threats to be avoided. In this possibly terminal phase of human existence democracy and freedom are more than values to be treasured, they may well be essential to survival."
Noam Chomsky

Few are those who see with their own eyes and feel with their own hearts.

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6 years 10 months ago - 6 years 10 months ago #283006 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic All of us need to unite
3 different stories about industrial capitalism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iOu_8yoqZoQ

People are complicated.
Last edit: 6 years 10 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

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6 years 10 months ago - 6 years 10 months ago #283080 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic All of us need to unite

Whyte Horse wrote: Check this out: -snip- Noam Chomsky


I don't see that as a critique of capitalism, which is unusual as usually I think is is selling socialism all the time. His point that ever increasing production will decimate the Earth is very true, even if we start trying to move offworld right away. I do tend to take the hard line that humanity needs to move to Space and leave Earth as a sanctuary to be wild, for native flora and fauna - and that we have proved we are not intended to be inhabitants with them, but either destroyers or guardians of it.... so its up to us to choose which one, and not choosing is still a choice. It's not a particularly attractive proposition, Space, but I've imagination enough to see how it could work given where we are and what we'd need. It's never easy to leave the warm cosy nest.

The issues he raises are serious, but the solutions need to address the larger problems before the smaller ones, else the smaller ones will probably reoccur if they are a result of the larger ones.

If I was to assume he is being anti-capitalist and selling socialism still, then I can put on my anti-Chomsky hat and make a donkey of myself....
Warning: Spoiler!

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 6 years 10 months ago by Adder.
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6 years 10 months ago - 6 years 10 months ago #283086 by
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I think having a global society is far beyond our generations, with religious fanaticism and people in power for the money, the power or both, It's reaching a point where globalism is no where near the horizon. At the moment I believe true capitalism is our best economic system for society so far, it allows for the free trade of goods and it creates an environment of competition which leads to innovation and cheaper prices. I don't understand the current shift to not allow capitalism or hating it. As for uniting there needs to be a system to remove political parties and allow many different views to speak, then allow people to have a say. A study I read for a law essay, I'm working on, regarding the Rule of Law and separation of powers stated, that if you spread the power among policymakers, the courts and the people, it breeds a sense of identity among citizens leading to an ethical obligation to come together for the greater good. Political parties seem to always devolve into team based sports.

Vladimir Lenin once said, "The goal of socialism is communism"

Communism so far, has lead to nothing but dictatorships and pain and suffering for people.

Politics, Nature, the World is like the force, it needs balance
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6 years 10 months ago #283088 by
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We have to be careful when saying "socialism" or "capitalism" without specifics. Both can more or less desirable depending on the circumstances.

For example, capitalism in health care has not been good for the ordinary joe. Medications that would be cheap or free in a single payer socialist healthcare system sell for thousands of dollars in the free market capitalist economy. They know people need the drugs to survive, so they jack up the price and limit supply in order to drive profit. This literally kills people.

Socialism can get out of hand when it stifles creativity due to lack of competition and encourages people to accept handouts rather than work for their reward.

Both systems can succeed or fail. As you said, Kodaav, the world needs balance.

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