secrets...

Senan wrote:

Tellahane wrote:

Senan wrote: Let's also not forget that this is a Temple and it is also a legally recognized church. As such, it is a sacred place to many members and it deserves the same reverence that a brick and mortar church or temple would. I wouldn't walk into a church and ask the priest about what kind of marital advice he gives to other couples in his congregation. I wouldn't ask people to share their confessions or their private prayers either. Churches have a public face and private interactions. We do too. People can post things they are comfortable with everyone knowing in the public sections. The restricted sections remain for valid and necessary functions of a church that go well beyond a simple internet forum.

I think it has long been argued and answered even recently, that it is not fair to really compare this temple to a church, and not because of the temple != church or the brick and mortar vs 1's and 0's but rather that this temple needs to be what it is for us, the members who are here, and not for what someone else does in some other building for some other belief system.

I'm not comparing it to a church. I'm saying explicitly that it IS a church. It is legally recognized in the U.S. We have ministers here. It is absolutely fair to compare this to other churches because we are one. Just because some would choose to use it differently does not change this FACT. If anybody here, even one person, has an expectation of this Temple to act like a church, then it is necessary because this is what we say we are in the first five words of our homepage. I'm not saying it has to act like a Christian church, but there are standards that are accepted and must be met. Otherwise the legal recognition means nothing, and calling ourselves a church is inaccurate and misleading.

Being a church, as we are, there is some information that needs to be kept confidential either due to legal reasons or out of respect for the wishes of members here who treat this as a church. If people wish to share their secrets, there is nothing stopping them. Anyone can write anything in the public forum for us all to read, but we each have the right to decide what gets posted there.

My personal belief is that Jedi should be open, honest, and genuine. It is part of the integrity we speak of in the Doctrine. So, if you ask me something about myself or my studies or what is in my journals, I will likely tell you. If I can't, I'll give you a good reason. I'm not here to keep secrets. I believe our Council and most others here have similar mindsets. If you want to know something or you believe something is being kept from you, just ask. It's really that simple.

So knowing the requirements for a 501c3 and reading into filing requirements in the state of Texas other then your organizational name and perhaps a category for the type of organization there's not really anything that specifies that you are a "church" let alone have any legal requirements as to having ministers or priests or any of that. You do have to have a structure of some kind of board or definition of ownership and/or leadership but anything after that is entirely open yo whatever labels and practices you want.

Also according to the home page the temple is filed as an international ministry, and public charity. Perhaps the actual documents filed may have been in the format of a church structure and all but it doesn't look like it was required not has any legal obligations as to how it participates as a religious entity. Br John feel free to correct me if I missed something in my brief searching here. But ultimately it can be setup however it needs or is required to be. It does not specifically, have to be a church.

I'm not sure if 'secrets' is the right word for privacy or closed working groups, as they are more about directing focus into particular areas in such a way to construct some structured interaction.

So I'd say that light and shade represent a structure existing within some medium. Moving through that structure creates changes in the medium and so removing the structure removes the capacity to shape a particular type of effect. So for me the best way to view this is to look at the structure in its entirety and make an assessment as to whether the structure is doing what it is intended in the most effective manner. The peripheral issues then become things like running it and making sure its available to its intended audience.

But for those without access to the experience of the entire structure then it's a balance between what they want to get out of moving through it, and the 'apparent' capacity of the structure to provide that. That later point is probably indicated in various ways by things like the dictated intention of the structure, other peoples individuals experiences, and whether those bits which can be accessed all point towards a likelihood that warrants a leap of faith to some degree. But all this revolves around someones motivations and commitment anyway so its all highly variable as to how someone perceives or interacts with something.

I will not discuss the Temple as a whole, as I am barely just chugging through my own trials, but I would like to say a word or two on "secrets".

I like to think of the moment in Star Wars: A New Hope and Star Wars: Empire Strikes Back (stay with me now!). Obi Wan Kenobi could have very easily told Luke Skywalker who his father was. He could have quite easily told him that Darth Vader, a key player in the machinations of the Empire, was both Ben's fallen apprentice and the father of Luke, but when he is asked, he gives an answer. What's important to remember is that he does not lie. Indeed, Anakin Skywalker was destroyed by Vader, but there was more to the story. When Luke confronts Ben about it in the next movie, Ben's reply is simply, "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

If this doesn't get you thinking, I would also like to provide a small section from one of the recent books published, Star Wars: Empire's End. In this book, the very philosophy that Ben used throughout his life is revealed, and sheds even more light on why he did what he did:
The truth in our soul
Is that nothing is true.
The question of life
Is what then do we do?
The burden is ours
To penance, we hew.
The Force binds us all
From a certain point of view.

Just some thoughts. I thank the Force for guiding this conversation to a place of meditation and well-formed thought

Tellahane wrote: So knowing the requirements for a 501c3 and reading into filing requirements in the state of Texas other then your organizational name and perhaps a category for the type of organization there's not really anything that specifies that you are a "church" let alone have any legal requirements as to having ministers or priests or any of that. You do have to have a structure of some kind of board or definition of ownership and/or leadership but anything after that is entirely open yo whatever labels and practices you want.

Also according to the home page the temple is filed as an international ministry, and public charity. Perhaps the actual documents filed may have been in the format of a church structure and all but it doesn't look like it was required not has any legal obligations as to how it participates as a religious entity. Br John feel free to correct me if I missed something in my brief searching here. But ultimately it can be setup however it needs or is required to be. It does not specifically, have to be a church.

"We are a Jedi Church." Literally the first 5 words of this website. It doesn't matter what is required of a 501c3. We said it ourselves. If we're concerned about secrets and transparency, perhaps we should be honest with people visiting here. If we openly deny this is a church while simultaneously calling ourselves one and enjoying the protections of being one, that is the height of hypocrisy and all credibility is lost.

Tellahane this is definitely one of the more baffling posts you have made. It seems self evident to me that levels of what I shall call security and not secrets MUST be maintained not only for privacy but also for... well security!

As for me, in any post I have ever made I always put it in the open discussion group because not everyone can see the apprentise group or reply in the jedi group. I do this because I want as open a discussion as possible and yet I have seen you many times create threads in those other groups. So I must ask, if you have this concern for openness why have you sensored your own certain threads from people? It seems hypocritical?

This topic immediately brings to mind a case on Judge Judy that I've seen (she's my guilty pleasure and kind of my hero, ha ha!)

A father was suing for reimbursement of a paternity test he has to do when a mother questioned that he was the father of her child - pretty standard TV court situation. However, Judge Judy found out an additional detail: the mother had told her 6 year old daughter that the man she knew as her father (the complainant) might not be. She said it was because she "didn't want to keep secrets from her child." Oh man, Judge Judy ripped her a new one. She was a family court judge for something like 20 years before she has her TV show, and knew thing or two about poor parenting.

The point is that not disclosing information doesn't mean it's a keeping secret. There could be a number of reasons: safety, well-being, organization, chain of command/responsibility, social propriety. If you trust a person/group, you should be able to trust that they will share whatever is appropriate to share, as they trust you to do the same.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane this is definitely one of the more baffling posts you have made. It seems self evident to me that levels of what I shall call security and not secrets MUST be maintained not only for privacy but also for... well security!

As for me, in any post I have ever made I always put it in the open discussion group because not everyone can see the apprentise group or reply in the jedi group. I do this because I want as open a discussion as possible and yet I have seen you many times create threads in those other groups. So I must ask, if you have this concern for openness why have you sensored your own certain threads from people? It seems hypocritical?

There is an actual method to this madness and I'll likely post it tomorrow I pretty much have everything I need.

Tellahane wrote: so my question is, should we?

Should is a very loaded word, it implies there is some sort of authority outside of oneself. Be it this authority God, a council, a code, clinging to it, and its corresponding feel-good approval is in itself an attachment.

You cannot force sharing on someone. Each of us expand and contract our own personal space as needed, and, while it is perfectly natural to question whether our boundaries are stemming from fear or sticking inside a comfort zone, any changes taken must come from inward (Will, and thus Love), not from outward expectations (Should, and thus fear).

As for TOTJO, I have no problem staying oblivious to all the administrative work going on behind the scenes and focused working groups. I wouldn't mind having lessons and other discussion being public though.

elizabeth wrote: Good point senan and for me, to make it clear I was talking about the forums NOT personal journals.

Although I dont see why the lesson bank isnt more open

I respect the privacy of journals why I wouldnt just randomly post

But there are areas that personally I dont see the need to hide away.

And not everyone here views this as a church (old, old argument)

Yeah i am with you on that one , and we have the possibilty to keep our journals open to the public, thats why some have 2 journals because they feel they want to share their knowledge or nonsense :laugh: with a broader public. And ..and that is a very important thing you pointed out , when its on the internetz , its public , i for one are even hesitant to post in pm or private chat because i know of who can read it , i am very aware that everything you share on the net can be read by someone or the other , so , so much for secrets ey

elizabeth wrote:
And not everyone here views this as a church (old, old argument)

It doesn't really matter if everyone here doesn't view it as a church, it is legally and officially a church just like Trump is legally and officially the president of the United States although everyone doesn't regard him as such. People forget it doesn't really matter how you look at it, things exist as they are regardless of how one may choose to perceive them...

Certain forums are accessible only to certain ranks because they have "earned the right" to have access to that forum. Once I become Knight I am going to start forming lessons on the awakening of The Reptilian Brain, I may make these only accessible to my Apprentices or I may make them accessible to the entire Knight's rank as I believe that many could benefit from it however, these are not lessons I would not want made accessible to everyone here as it would be highly irresponsible to do so....