On the Nature of Crime vs War - An Open Discussion on Terrorism and Censorship

I have been a professional warrior my entire adult life. My motivations have evolved and matured over time, as have the skillsets I employ to ply my trade in my nation's interest. I make no apologies for them, nor will I. I submit this in an act of full disclosure and to declare the perspective from which I write. Additionally, I write only to offer my perspective - your mileage may vary, and that is okay by me. While many consider themselves familiar with the lethal capabilities the US Department of Defense touts, its non-lethal capabilities are lesser-known and often to much greater and lasting effect. As Adder mentioned, there is a spectrum of conflict. Today we call the areas between the commonly understood duality of peace and war the Gray Zone.

General Joseph L. Votel, USA, is the Commander of U.S. Special Operations Command wrote: The Gray Zone is characterized by intense political, economic, informational, and military competition more fervent in nature than normal steady-state diplomacy, yet short of conventional war.

General Votel's Unconventional Warfare In The Gray Zone Paper

I submit to you this: In the Gray Zone, failure is loud...success is quiet. When these Gray Zone efforts are successful - nothing happens. That is often difficult to capture in a news spot, so you will hear nothing about it. And that is fine by me. Only when we fail to prevent violence and war do cameras arrive. And that is also fine by me. I like a public aware of and invested in the violence they ask of us. No one recognizes more than the military that you can't solve all the world's problems with the gun - nor should you try. We have seen firsthand successes and failures supporting this idea again and again. The gun is but a single tool, and most problems are far too complicated to solve with just one. Force isn't THE answer, but sometimes it is unfortunately PART of the answer. One of our habitual national failures is offering an imbalanced solution, thereby dooming our military's efforts and squandering the sacrifices made on every side.

One thing I think is particularly telling is this: In the Joint Phasing Model for joint operations across all services, the first two phases are Shape and Deter. As a professional warfighter, I was elated to find that AVOIDANCE was literally written into our doctrinal DNA.

Joint Phasing Model

Phase 0: Shape
Phase 1: Deter
Phase 2: Seize Initiative
Phase 3: Dominate
Phase 4: Stabilize
Phase 5: Enable Civil Authority

Joint Concept for Campaigning

Prevention and preparation mark Phase 0, and I can tell you from experience that the going sentiment across those on the edge of these conflicts is that we lean heavily into prevention. But alas, sometimes we do fail.

When force is part of the answer, those who apply it are bound to act in accordance with the values of the people they serve. That is the difference between a warrior and a murderer. A warrior kills only certain people, at certain times, in certain ways as governed by the values and people he stewards. If he purposely kills outside the scope of this stewardship, he devolves into a murderer (as judged by HIS culture). Not before. There is a lot of great literature out there on the topic, ranging from Saint Augustine's Just War Theory to the scholar warriors of today. The scope of some ranges from 'war' as an institution for change, all the way to how warriors arm themselves with a code of ethics. A book I would recommend to any of you interested in latter is the book, The Code of the Warrior by Dr. Shannon French. While in school I took a semester on a course centered around her book, taught by a Master Chief SEAL with his PhD in Philosophy. Of all the education I have received, that course has been most important to me professionally and personally. Here is a link to a shortened version that covers a piece: Prof. Shannon E. French, Ph.D. U.S. Naval Academy Dept. of Leadership, Ethics, and Law

I hope this has broadened a few horizons and answered a few questions out there, but more importantly I hope this sparks a whole slew of additional questions. Thanks for reading!

Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

Lykeios wrote: Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

That's not a very nice thing to say....

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

That's not a very nice thing to say....

Sorry...it's just if that buffoon is elected I'm moving to Canada.

Lykeios wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

That's not a very nice thing to say....

Sorry...it's just if that buffoon is elected I'm moving to Canada.

Well we've got plenty of space if you don't mind snow and bears. And snow bears....

But that's not an excuse for being mean to a fellow Jedi. *sad Canadian pout* EVEN IF you don't agree. Especially if you don't agree. There are much better ways of expressing an opposing view.

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

That's not a very nice thing to say....

Sorry...it's just if that buffoon is elected I'm moving to Canada.

Well we've got plenty of space if you don't mind snow and bears. And snow bears....

But that's not an excuse for being mean to a fellow Jedi. *sad Canadian pout* EVEN IF you don't agree. Especially if you don't agree. There are much better ways of expressing an opposing view.

Wasn't trying to be mean, just honest. My apologies to you Kyrin.

Senan wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: These extremist animals know nothing but war and violence and oppression. They can't be bargained with. They can't be reasoned with. They doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear and they absolutely will not stop, ever, until freedom is dead and their way of life is the only one that exists. Their systematic progression can only be ended by visiting a superior application of these concepts back onto them and never stopping that application until the enemy is completely and decisively eradicated. (and those that get this paragraphs reference, the comparison is on purpose)

Kyrin, I appreciate your willingness to be frank and honest with your opinions, and please take my response here as an open invitation to "go to guns" on me as well (per the agreed upon rules, of course).

I selected this specific excerpt from your overall response because in my eyes it is a glaring example of a fundamental misunderstanding about the so-called "War on Terror". The words you have chosen could literally be a recruitment speech for ISIS, Al Queda or any number of other organizations. In the eyes of these people, the U.S. Military is a terrorist organization.

Consider your words as they could describe the U.S.

We have been a nation constantly at war, committing acts of violence and oppressing other nations. We cannot be bargained with, other than perhaps for oil. We refuse reason unless it is our reason while ignoring the reason of our allies. We bomb cities with drones that feel no pity, remorse or fear and we have yet to stop because our way of life is not the only one that exists. And so, our systematic progression can only be ended by these groups visiting a superior application of these concepts back onto us via high-jacked airplanes, bombs, mass shootings and trucks until we are completely and decisively defeated.

....

Thanks Senan,

Yours is the kind of intelligent discourse I was hoping for. You have setup a couple of “strawman” arguments however and let me address those. First trump did not say he would declare war on ISIS as you say. What the quote actually says is that he would ASK for a declaration of war. It’s not stated emphatically but we must assume that he would be asking for this from congress. The second is your comment that he wants to build a wall to keep out brown people. This is a gross exaggeration and not even slightly accurate. What he wants is proper immigration control. He does not want to keep “brown people” out. He wants them to follow the proper legal procedure for entry into the US and that is all. I happen to agree with his position on this. My great grandfather came over and followed procedure, learned the language and petitioned for his citizenship. No one should get special dispensation on this procedure just because they can swim. You also greatly exaggerate Trumps “hate filled racist rants”. This is just not in evidence except in the minds of the “No Trumpers” who make up any lie to further their agenda. So I don’t think issues like foreign policy etc are in as much jeopardy as you say.

As for the rest of your comments I can sympathize with your position that the enemy views us in the exact same way as we view them. However I don’t necessarily agree that they hold the same standing to make those claims. No man, society, nation or our species as a whole is perfect. But I do believe that the US as a nation always strives for the greatest good in everything we do. Now that is not to say that there is not corruption, or mistakes or subversion to that but what I am saying is that overall as a general path we do strive to ferret that out and work towards good ends. We have constant raging debates over it in fact. Which direction is best, what is the greatest good and we speak our minds quite emphatically. We have the freedom to do this and I believe in our process.

This is something you can’t say of many Arab nations under the control of oppressive organizations such as ISIS. You will be beheaded for speaking out and an entire gender is not allowed to drive or get an education as well as a myriad of other restrictions. Those in power revere killing and subjugation as a mandate from their God. (I’m just talking the Radicals, not all Muslims.) That is not right. We as a species are capable of comprehending abstracts like morality and because we have that capability we must constantly evaluate among ourselves the greatest moral position we want to strive for. This is something that is constantly evolving in us. Throughout our entire history this has been the case. A few obvious examples are our own civil war. We decided as a species that slavery was no longer a viable moral position. This did not come about easily as it was one of the most violent conflicts in our history. More recently we decided that the systematic eradication of the Jewish race and the oppression of the continent of Europe by the Nazi’s was not something that we should hold as a moral position. Once again this was brought about by violent conflict.

These are examples that I think we can look upon to define the stark contrast between what the US represents as a nation vs what ISIS represents as a “nation”. It’s a moral obligation of our species to always strive for the greatest good within ourselves and when we identify components of our existence that work against that we must stand up and say NO. This will not happen anymore. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

Note: Spoiler contains Nazi imagery and may be unsuitable and/or prohibited. Please view with discretion.

Hey when these guys march across Europe and reactivate the concentration camps let me know.. mkay?

Lykeios wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:

Lykeios wrote: Stopped reading after you said we should hope for the successful election of Donald Trump.

That's not a very nice thing to say....

Sorry...it's just if that buffoon is elected I'm moving to Canada.

Well we've got plenty of space if you don't mind snow and bears. And snow bears....

But that's not an excuse for being mean to a fellow Jedi. *sad Canadian pout* EVEN IF you don't agree. Especially if you don't agree. There are much better ways of expressing an opposing view.

Wasn't trying to be mean, just honest. My apologies to you Kyrin.

None necessary Brother. We all have strong political leanings and I respect that. However don't let one statement I make cause you to completely dismiss the point of this discussion. Why is it you stopped reading after that statement I made? What is it about that statement that so polarized you? That's what this thread is for.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

Note: Spoiler contains Nazi imagery and may be unsuitable and/or prohibited. Please view with discretion.

Hey when these guys march across Europe and reactivate the concentration camps let me know.. mkay?

His point is still valid. The ideology hasn't been destroyed. It still exists.