On the Nature of Crime vs War - An Open Discussion on Terrorism and Censorship

Leah Starspectre wrote:
I don't think anyone is asking to ignore what's happening overseas...but too many people are making it the focus, and as a result, fostering xenophobia and a culture where violence against someone who is different is ok. The military may be focused on defusing ISIS, but for Americans back home, it's hard to see beyond "Muslims are terrorists" because of the way politicians and others like them are presenting it.

I think you are right to an extent. There is quite a focus on the over seas issue right now because it is a national threat. But I also think there is a great focus on our own national issues as well. Just because ISIS leads the news reel does not mean that further in there are not stories of the issues in our nation as well. I for one am an active member of our LGBT center and help to sponsor Gay Pride Day every year. I'm also a member of the Atheist community and part of our charter is to lobby our state legislature for better laws and constant education of our communities when it comes to these sorts of social issues as well as keeping things like intelligent design out of the public school system. Those organizations in addition to the local Pagan community I belong to also run food banks and spend a good deal of time helping out those in need whenever we find a need. In fact I probably spend more time on our own issues in this country than I do thinking about waging war on others LOL. Thats a good thing right!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I think you are right to an extent. There is quite a focus on the over seas issue right now because it is a national threat. But I also think there is a great focus on our own national issues as well. Just because ISIS leads the news reel does not mean that further in there are not stories of the issues in our nation as well. I for one am an active member of our LGBT center and help to sponsor Gay Pride Day every year. I'm also a member of the Atheist community and part of our charter is to lobby our state legislature for better laws and constant education of our communities when it comes to these sorts of social issues as well as keeping things like intelligent design out of the public school system. Those organizations in addition to the local Pagan community I belong to also run food banks and spend a good deal of time helping out those in need whenever we find a need. In fact I probably spend more time on our own issues in this country than I do thinking about waging war on others LOL. Thats a good thing right!

It IS a good thing! And we need more people like you who actively ally with those seeking to improve the present situation. But the newsreels do their job well, and not everyone is good people....

Senan wrote: ... but telling Mexico that they are going to pay for the wall is unnecessary posturing. Trump has no real plan to make that happen, at least not one he's promoted publicly, so why piss off Mexico with these statements when we will need to work with them?...

Thanks for your comments. Your exactly right here. He did overstep his bounds and yes he should try and work with them not against them or piss them off. I think part of his popularity comes from the fact that he just says what many others would say in private circles during heated debates fueled by to much frustration! In the light of real discussion no one could ever make Mexico pay for a wall but people are like, "screw em, make the Mexicans pay for it". Its not based in reality but its fun to say over a few beers! Trump has tapped into the "everyman" mentality.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

Note: Spoiler contains Nazi imagery and may be unsuitable and/or prohibited. Please view with discretion.

Hey when these guys march across Europe and reactivate the concentration camps let me know.. mkay?

To be fair, you were talking about ideology. These photos show that ideology is not dead. It doesn't take many to operate a terror group. These guys can easily make life miserable for a lot of people.

The point is that even though force crushed the regime based on the ideology, that ideology is not dead. In fact, it's hate and intolerance that allows it to spread.

"Behind the dark walls of the prison,
Hiding my face from all in my vision,
Abandoned by my bosses,the terror leads,
I wait to be hanged for my misdeeds.

Now I look back to think….

Important member of the Al-Qaeeda,I was,
Given tasty food, and rigorous training by my boss,
I was taught “muslims are harassed round the world,
To help them, grenades and bombs ,I have to hurl.

Arms and ammunitions to me they gave,
To destroy the world, the path they paved.
Rigorous physical training I was given,
On the path of “Jihad’I was driven.

I felt …”me, a class four dropout from school,
To a fidayeen…oh so cool.”
With pots of money l was lured,
A place in paradise..I was assured.


Reading the terror email from the Mujahideen,
I was all charged up and excited to become a fidayeen.
With the ammunitions, I was on my way,
On the path of destruction that they laid.
“Explode bombs, shoot and kill”,
They said “that is what was Allah’s will.”
An obedient student I was in their list,
Little did I realize I was a dangerous terrorist!

As I killed and killed and shed innocent blood,
Suddenly, I was shot and I fell down ..thud!
Interrogations by cops continued endlessly on me,
Confusing the cops,I waited for Al-qaeeda to rescue me.

To my rescue, none from Al Qaeeda came,
Hated worldover a terrorist I became!
No one would come I felt
I was misled! I silently wept.

Jihad would never get me paradise,
Fallen in eyes of Allah, I will never ever rise.
I am unable to bear this and want to die,
And face Allah ? In fear and shame I cry.

I neither can live nor die in peace ,
Forgive me Allah, I cried on my knees.
Old, young, man woman, child I randomly killed,
Was this by Allah, in me instilled?

I repent and feel am cursed by all,to hell I shall go,
What mass destruction on earth have I done? Oh!
I have now to face all those I murdered,
What do I answer them, I ponder.

Spread love and peace is the message of God,
I have now learnt the message of the Lord.
I confess ..”Jihad and terrorism are hated by god,”
I sincerely beg “Forgive me all, forgive me Lord!!”

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: None necessary Brother. We all have strong political leanings and I respect that. However don't let one statement I make cause you to completely dismiss the point of this discussion. Why is it you stopped reading after that statement I made? What is it about that statement that so polarized you? That's what this thread is for.

Why did I stop reading? I suppose because I feel so strongly that Donald Trump is a dangerous choice for a president. I think he's a racist warmonger who will only harm our relations with other countries.

As far as the original topic goes, I don't know that I can agree that an act of terrorism is an act of war. I see terrorism more as a crime similar to mass murder. I suppose it's possible that some acts of terrorism might also be considered acts of war but I don't think they automatically are.

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

Note: Spoiler contains Nazi imagery and may be unsuitable and/or prohibited. Please view with discretion.

Hey when these guys march across Europe and reactivate the concentration camps let me know.. mkay?

To be fair, you were talking about ideology. These photos show that ideology is not dead. It doesn't take many to operate a terror group. These guys can easily make life miserable for a lot of people.

The point is that even though force crushed the regime based on the ideology, that ideology is not dead. In fact, it's hate and intolerance that allows it to spread.

and our culture so values life and freedom that we allow these people to dress in their outfits and speak their views so long as they dont actually hurt anyone

are we perfect? no

but you cannot compare the way that america treats non conformists (including lgbt) to the way daesh does

nor can you back up the implication that the western powers are anywhere near as brutal to our enemies or rivals either

there is a world of difference and if you cant see that youre blind

and daesh has declared war, openly

they literally say that they are at war with the west: is that something you think we should pretend isnt a real threat?

Then call me Blind Mag - because I believe hometown terrorism is just as brutal and dangerous as the kind that comes from overseas. If not more, because we're partly responsible for it ourselves.

Lykeios wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: None necessary Brother. We all have strong political leanings and I respect that. However don't let one statement I make cause you to completely dismiss the point of this discussion. Why is it you stopped reading after that statement I made? What is it about that statement that so polarized you? That's what this thread is for.

Why did I stop reading? I suppose because I feel so strongly that Donald Trump is a dangerous choice for a president. I think he's a racist warmonger who will only harm our relations with other countries.

As far as the original topic goes, I don't know that I can agree that an act of terrorism is an act of war. I see terrorism more as a crime similar to mass murder. I suppose it's possible that some acts of terrorism might also be considered acts of war but I don't think they automatically are.

I can respect your views on terrorism and I would agree. Some people are just insane. School shootings are a classic example of terrorism that is just crime. It is a selfish act done to illicit personal attention. However what ISIS does are acts of war against this nation no different than when the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbor during WWII and they should be treated as such.

As for your views on Trump I think your either misinformed or in denial of the facts at hand. I hear all kinds of wildly slanted things like you just said, even to the point that his father was an active member of the KKK. In fact there is no evidence that he was ever involved in such an organization.

http://www.snopes.com/donald-trump-father-kkk-1927/

Beyond that Trump has never ranted against Mexicans, only their illegal immigration. He has never ranted against Muslims, only a temporary ban on acceptance of refugees from Muslim countries that may harbor radical extremists with agendas to attack our civilian populations. These are both practical and, in my opinion, vital stances to take to protect Americans and its no where near as radical as what we did to the American-Japanese population in WWII after Pearl, but in a time of war, which I believe this is, we must take measures to protect ourselves. This only makes sense.

Mayer Guiliani has described Trump as a man with a big heart.

http://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/288263-guliani-trump-came-to-new-yorks-aid-anonymously

He obviously cares about people and this nation and I greatly appreciate the fact that he is not a career politician, just "getting by" to get re-elected and one that has funded his own campaign. To me these things all speak to a fair man that I think has the potential to do some good for our Country.

Leah Starspectre wrote: Then call me Blind Mag - because I believe hometown terrorism is just as brutal and dangerous as the kind that comes from overseas. If not more, because we're partly responsible for it ourselves.

i didnt say "hometown terrorism"

i said:

OB1Shinobi wrote: you cannot compare the way that america treats non conformists (including lgbt) to the way daesh does

nor can you back up the implication that the western powers are anywhere near as brutal to our enemies or rivals [such as the Yazidi]

keep in mind that i am talking specifically about daesh

im not talking about "muslims" nor am i talking about "terrorists"

daesh - isis

ive gathered that you dont click the links or read the news reports, so here is an excerpt to save you the trouble:

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-genocide-kerry-yazidis-christians-shia-437944]

"ISIS’s campaign against the Yazidis has seen around 3,500 members of the religious minority, mainly women and children, held as slaves by the militant group. In August 2014, ISIS members stormed Sinjar, in northern Iraq, murdering around 3,000 men and older women and taking thousands women and girls into sexual slavery, repeatedly raping them and selling them between fighters in public marketplaces."

heres what america does to our outsiders:

https://www.aclu.org/anti-lgbt-religious-exemption-legislation-across-country

"Religious Freedom Restoration Acts:
Make it easier for people to demand exemptions to generally applicable laws, by allowing lawsuits challenging any governmental policy, such as nondiscrimination laws, that someone says substantially burden their religious beliefs."

we also have things like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

our problems are bad, sure, but they are not deliberate genocide and sexual slavery

please acknowledge the difference, because OBVIOUSLY there is one

and again, "they" have in fact declared war on "us" and pretty damn near everyone else in the world, which would be silly if they werent actually killing people


http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/how-the-islamic-state-declared-war-on-the-world-actual-state/


http://www.vocativ.com/332016/isis-declares-war-on-the-philippines-in-latest-beheading-video/


http://www.africametro.com/world-news/terrorist-caliphate-declares-war-with-china-india-rome


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3410820/Now-ISIS-declares-war-Muslims-Latest-edition-terror-group-s-magazine-calls-Shia-Muslims-targeted.html

but they are actually killing people, a lot of people, and its pretty insulting (as well as incorrect to the point of absurdity) to suggest that usa is comparable