On the Nature of Crime vs War - An Open Discussion on Terrorism and Censorship

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: This is something you can’t say of many Arab nations under the control of oppressive organizations such as ISIS. You will be beheaded for speaking out and an entire gender is not allowed to drive or get an education as well as a myriad of other restrictions. Those in power revere killing and subjugation as a mandate from their God. (I’m just talking the Radicals, not all Muslims.) That is not right. We as a species are capable of comprehending abstracts like morality and because we have that capability we must constantly evaluate among ourselves the greatest moral position we want to strive for. This is something that is constantly evolving in us. Throughout our entire history this has been the case. A few obvious examples are our own civil war. We decided as a species that slavery was no longer a viable moral position. This did not come about easily as it was one of the most violent conflicts in our history. More recently we decided that the systematic eradication of the Jewish race and the oppression of the continent of Europe by the Nazi’s was not something that we should hold as a moral position. Once again this was brought about by violent conflict.

These are examples that I think we can look upon to define the stark contrast between what the US represents as a nation vs what ISIS represents as a “nation”. It’s a moral obligation of our species to always strive for the greatest good within ourselves and when we identify components of our existence that work against that we must stand up and say NO. This will not happen anymore. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

But you realize that these kinds of behaviours are happening in the US as well, right? Fundamentalist Christian and Jewish groups have many of the same morals (including sexism and violence) as extremist Muslims. Why not focus on rooting out extremism within your own borders and "accepted religion" rather than condemning the practices of others. It's rather like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Also, there is such a thing as having a non-aggressive supportive presence in a war/terror-stricken country. A lot of what Canada's military does is to help train and support a country's own forces to handle the conflict as it occurs in their own country.

Kit wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

Note: Spoiler contains Nazi imagery and may be unsuitable and/or prohibited. Please view with discretion.

Hey when these guys march across Europe and reactivate the concentration camps let me know.. mkay?

His point is still valid. The ideology hasn't been destroyed. It still exists.

Yes to an extent it is, but the "Neo-Nazis" of today are not the Nazis of the 1940s. They have been relegated to a fringe group that still carry some of the ideology of those originals but they have evolved into something completely different. They are but a shadow of what original Nazism was and the threat it carried. That same ideology can be seen in ISIS and in contrast to the Neo-Nazi movement are a current and ever increasing threat. If we don't do something about them I fear we will have a problem as big as the Nazi issue of the 1940s to deal with soon. We need to learn from our past or we are doomed to repeat it.

Leah Starspectre wrote:
But you realize that these kinds of behaviours are happening in the US as well, right? Fundamentalist Christian and Jewish groups have many of the same morals (including sexism and violence) as extremist Muslims. Why not focus on rooting out extremism within your own borders and "accepted religion" rather than condemning the practices of others. It's rather like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Also, there is such a thing as having a non-aggressive supportive presence in a war/terror-stricken country. A lot of what Canada's military does is to help train and support a country's own forces to handle the conflict as it occurs in their own country.

Those groups in the US have every right to believe what they believe. However I don't recall reading in the paper that any Christians beheaded a group of homosexuals recently or decided that women in their city could not drive cars and then promptly took over that city and enforced that law or went to Israel and walked into a restaurant and blew themselves up in the name of their God and as a general rule they don't advocate violence and oppression as a vehicle to justify their ends.

I Sympathize with your point. I know we as a nation are not perfect and there is tons of stuff to be fixed here as well but to try and compare the sort of radical extremism that exists in ISIS to American Christians or Jews is just not a viable position. I also think we should train a country's forces to protect themselves. In fact that is what the US was doing with Iraq. Did we get to finish the job. No.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: However I don't recall reading in the paper that any Christians beheaded a group of homosexuals recently or decided that women in their city could not drive cars...

You may not have heard about it, but that sort of stuff does happen here. Maybe not so much with the beheading, but members of the LGBTQ community are regularly beaten and even killed just for being themselves. There are also people who actively discourage women from being very independent. The kind of people who want to live like it's 1950 and the women stay home and bake cookies all day while the men go off to work and everyone smiles for the neighbors so they don't know that the husband beats the wife at night.

But the media would much rather tell you about the beheadings and such because it gets more clicks.

No offence intended, but let's not forget that Christians (or branches of it including Catholicism and Mormonism)
. Molest Children
. Incest and have more than 1 wife at one time
. Hitler was a Christian
. KKK are Christian
. George W. Bush was a Christian.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:
But you realize that these kinds of behaviours are happening in the US as well, right? Fundamentalist Christian and Jewish groups have many of the same morals (including sexism and violence) as extremist Muslims. Why not focus on rooting out extremism within your own borders and "accepted religion" rather than condemning the practices of others. It's rather like the pot calling the kettle black, don't you think?

Also, there is such a thing as having a non-aggressive supportive presence in a war/terror-stricken country. A lot of what Canada's military does is to help train and support a country's own forces to handle the conflict as it occurs in their own country.

Those groups in the US have every right to believe what they believe. However I don't recall reading in the paper that any Christians beheaded a group of homosexuals recently or decided that women in their city could not drive cars and then promptly took over that city and enforced that law or went to Israel and walked into a restaurant and blew themselves up in the name of their God and as a general rule they don't advocate violence and oppression as a vehicle to justify their ends.

I Sympathize with your point. I know we as a nation are not perfect and there is tons of stuff to be fixed here as well but to try and compare the sort of radical extremism that exists in ISIS to American Christians or Jews is just not a viable position. I also think we should train a country's forces to protect themselves. In fact that is what the US was doing with Iraq. Did we get to finish the job. No.

Well, they don't do it so poetically, but yes, radial Christians do beat and kill LGBT members. And many fundamentalist Christian and Jewish sects border on cultish - including having strict gender roles and encouraging violence. Also, especially in the wake of 9/11, many minorities were accused of being terrorists and killed by American Christians. And we can't forget the right-wing pro-life nutjobs who shoot up abortion clinics. And incidents like the Waco siege. And although they don't employ physical violence, I'd say that the Westboro Baptist Church is psychologically/emotionally violent.

We've got plenty of terrorists, but it's easier to sweep them under the rug, blame it on "mental healt," and point our fingers at some brown crazies far away who are foreign and alien to us, and so, easy to vilify.

I take your points and yes you are right, there are examples of terrorism and oppression by Christians on gays and women here in this country. I will fight just as hard to end that sort of oppression as I would over seas to end oppression there. I would assume you would feel the same way. If we truly have a love for all life then we should be just as concerned for those overseas as we are for those in this country. We should consider it a two front fight. Just because its happening here in the US does not mean we should ignore it other places right? The difference is that here in the US its mostly a political battle while overseas it is a militaristic one.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I take your points and yes you are right, there are examples of terrorism and oppression by Christians on gays and women here in this country. I will fight just as hard to end that sort of oppression as I would over seas to end oppression there. I would assume you would feel the same way. If we truly have a love for all life then we should be just as concerned for those overseas as we are for those in this country. We should consider it a two front fight. Just because its happening here in the US does not mean we should ignore it other places right? The difference is that here in the US its mostly a political battle while overseas it is a militaristic one.

I don't think anyone is asking to ignore what's happening overseas...but too many people are making it the focus, and as a result, fostering xenophobia and a culture where violence against someone who is different is ok. The military may be focused on defusing ISIS, but for Americans back home, it's hard to see beyond "Muslims are terrorists" because of the way politicians and others like them are presenting it.

I was really going to stay out of this topic. It seems so often these days, as one of the few military/veteran/police I feel obligated to step in some of these discussions.

War is a last resort. Adder's post on the 'spectrum of conflict' is wonderful. There is a lot of things that happen before Nations decide to attack each other. Diplomacy is the first step. You talk. However, when you sit down at the table, your voice is only as strong as the threat of your military/economic prowess is. If talking does not work, economic sanctions may be used to convince other Nations to relax their posture. This can go back and forth many times until the matter is resolved. All sides have to be willing to discuss and make reasonable concessions in the negotiation. If all of this discourse fails, and the conviction is strong enough it escalates to armed conflict.

War is not a crime. There are War Crimes, but War is not a crime. Some might say that is a crime not to go to war in certain situations. Every military operation follows the Geneva Convention, the Code of Conduct and the Rules of engagement set by the President and his staff. Violating these laws/codes/rules are war crimes.

Every U.S. Military Officer is required to carry out the duties of their Office, which is to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same.

An Officer does not have to obey the President, other Officers or politicians. The Office to which they are appointed is to faithfully support and defend the Constitution. If orders violate the Constitution it is their duty to not follow those "unlawful" orders.

Every U.S. military enlisted person is required to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic and to bear true faith and allegiance to the same; AND obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over them. They are required to obey "lawful" orders.

If an Officer makes an unlawful order, or an Enlisted follows/carries out an unlawful order; It is a War Crime. Sometimes in the fog of war it is not easy to know what is or is not a lawful order, or you may not have the luxury of time to think it through. Sometimes, bad intelligence or other issues can cloud the decisions that need to be made and an Officer/Enlisted may not be aware they are committing an unlawful order. If they realize that it was an unlawful order it is their duty to report the incident to superiors as soon as they are able. Afterwards, in a court, guilt or innocence can be determined given all of the circumstances of the situation.

This is when moral courage, and sometimes overcoming peer pressure is a challenge. Especially when your own life could be in danger if you say/do something. We saw a lot of evidence of this in WW II where normally good people did some terrible things.

Please, also note, that military members are not Awarded/Rewarded for kill counts. Acts of Valor that merit our highest Awards are from heroic efforts to SAVE lives, not kill. There is nothing heroic about killing people. War is a tragic thing. Killing is not something that anyone I know in the military finds easy. I do not know anyone I have ever served with wake up in the morning and say they were going to kill anyone today. Most I have seen prayed that it was a quiet and peaceful day.

We do not carpet bomb, fire bomb, or mass bomb in modern warfare today. We use pinpoint precision to minimize casualties while destroying military targets. This is why our enemy, knowing our rules of engagement and hide out/stash weapons caches in Mosques/Schools/Hospitals. Surround yourself with "innocents" makes it harder to become targeted.

The Iraq war was short. From invasion to the arrest of Saddam Hussein and surrender took very little time. The Operation Enduring Freedom(OEF)/Operation Iraqi Freedom(OIF) is what was dragged out and had the most casualties. These operations were trying to change a culture. It was rebuilding infrastructure, schools for men AND women, building hospitals, clearing minefields/IEDs and attempting to change the thought process of a culture, to show that all human lives mattered, not just men.

Changing an Ideology is hard. It cannot be done through War/Violence. It has to come from within the culture, outsiders cannot MAKE it change. It takes time. Forcing democracy on a culture that is not ready for it will fail.

Terrorism is a tactic. When you are facing a huge monster, like the U.S. military, you have to use a tactic that works. To win against such an overwhelming opponent, you have to use tactics that demoralize, and reduce support for the military effort. The Middle East, cannot defeat the U.S. military on the battlefield. It has to be beaten by attacking the support structure of the military conflict. This is why Terrorism is used and is a valid tactic.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Yours is the kind of intelligent discourse I was hoping for. You have setup a couple of “strawman” arguments however and let me address those. First trump did not say he would declare war on ISIS as you say. What the quote actually says is that he would ASK for a declaration of war. It’s not stated emphatically but we must assume that he would be asking for this from congress. The second is your comment that he wants to build a wall to keep out brown people. This is a gross exaggeration and not even slightly accurate. What he wants is proper immigration control. He does not want to keep “brown people” out. He wants them to follow the proper legal procedure for entry into the US and that is all. I happen to agree with his position on this. My great grandfather came over and followed procedure, learned the language and petitioned for his citizenship. No one should get special dispensation on this procedure just because they can swim. You also greatly exaggerate Trumps “hate filled racist rants”. This is just not in evidence except in the minds of the “No Trumpers” who make up any lie to further their agenda. So I don’t think issues like foreign policy etc are in as much jeopardy as you say.

As for the rest of your comments I can sympathize with your position that the enemy views us in the exact same way as we view them. However I don’t necessarily agree that they hold the same standing to make those claims. No man, society, nation or our species as a whole is perfect. But I do believe that the US as a nation always strives for the greatest good in everything we do. Now that is not to say that there is not corruption, or mistakes or subversion to that but what I am saying is that overall as a general path we do strive to ferret that out and work towards good ends. We have constant raging debates over it in fact. Which direction is best, what is the greatest good and we speak our minds quite emphatically. We have the freedom to do this and I believe in our process.

This is something you can’t say of many Arab nations under the control of oppressive organizations such as ISIS. You will be beheaded for speaking out and an entire gender is not allowed to drive or get an education as well as a myriad of other restrictions. Those in power revere killing and subjugation as a mandate from their God. (I’m just talking the Radicals, not all Muslims.) That is not right. We as a species are capable of comprehending abstracts like morality and because we have that capability we must constantly evaluate among ourselves the greatest moral position we want to strive for. This is something that is constantly evolving in us. Throughout our entire history this has been the case. A few obvious examples are our own civil war. We decided as a species that slavery was no longer a viable moral position. This did not come about easily as it was one of the most violent conflicts in our history. More recently we decided that the systematic eradication of the Jewish race and the oppression of the continent of Europe by the Nazi’s was not something that we should hold as a moral position. Once again this was brought about by violent conflict.

These are examples that I think we can look upon to define the stark contrast between what the US represents as a nation vs what ISIS represents as a “nation”. It’s a moral obligation of our species to always strive for the greatest good within ourselves and when we identify components of our existence that work against that we must stand up and say NO. This will not happen anymore. Those are just my thoughts on the matter.

Thanks for clarifying. I admit that I generalized and also showed some obvious bias in a few of my comments. And to be fair, I'm not a fan of Hillary either.

I know Trump would still have to act within the confines of the Executive powers, and he would likely ask Congress before he could do anything too reaching. I just wish he wouldn't be so inflammatory while trying to gain support for his plans. In his attempts to be honest, he says some things in ways that come off as insulting.

An example that makes me worry about the foreign policy is his stand on illegal immigration. I agree with the need for reform and to make people coming here go through the proper procedures to get here, but telling Mexico that they are going to pay for the wall is unnecessary posturing. Trump has no real plan to make that happen, at least not one he's promoted publicly, so why piss off Mexico with these statements when we will need to work with them? They are dealing with their own illegal immigration problem on their own Southern border and cooperation would be better than threats. He's tapping into the frustrations of his core base to get votes, but it can be dangerous.

And you're right about our political process here. It can be flawed, but it is vastly superior to dictatorships or religious states that crush individual freedoms. I hope we can be an example to the world without becoming too oppressive ourselves.