On the Nature of Crime vs War - An Open Discussion on Terrorism and Censorship

I think I saw a comment about Christian terrorism and Christians beheading people earlier.

Wikipedia's Entry on Christian Terrorism

WATCH: Christian Extremists Mass Behead Muslims in Africa

There are Jewish terrorist organizations popping up, too.

Like these ones who are attacking churches.

Also, Buddhist terrorists in Myanmar.

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote: Then call me Blind Mag - because I believe hometown terrorism is just as brutal and dangerous as the kind that comes from overseas. If not more, because we're partly responsible for it ourselves.

i didnt say "hometown terrorism"

i said:

OB1Shinobi wrote: you cannot compare the way that america treats non conformists (including lgbt) to the way daesh does

nor can you back up the implication that the western powers are anywhere near as brutal to our enemies or rivals [such as the Yazidi]

keep in mind that i am talking specifically about daesh

im not talking about "muslims" nor am i talking about "terrorists"

daesh - isis

ive gathered that you dont click the links or read the news reports, so here is an excerpt to save you the trouble:

http://www.newsweek.com/isis-genocide-kerry-yazidis-christians-shia-437944]

"ISIS’s campaign against the Yazidis has seen around 3,500 members of the religious minority, mainly women and children, held as slaves by the militant group. In August 2014, ISIS members stormed Sinjar, in northern Iraq, murdering around 3,000 men and older women and taking thousands women and girls into sexual slavery, repeatedly raping them and selling them between fighters in public marketplaces."

heres what america does to our outsiders:

https://www.aclu.org/anti-lgbt-religious-exemption-legislation-across-country

"Religious Freedom Restoration Acts:
Make it easier for people to demand exemptions to generally applicable laws, by allowing lawsuits challenging any governmental policy, such as nondiscrimination laws, that someone says substantially burden their religious beliefs."

we also have things like:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Police_brutality

http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/economic-inequality-it-s-far-worse-than-you-think/

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/apr/21/americas-oligarchy-not-democracy-or-republic-unive/

our problems are bad, sure, but they are not deliberate genocide and sexual slavery

please acknowledge the difference, because OBVIOUSLY there is one

and again, "they" have in fact declared war on "us" and pretty damn near everyone else in the world, which would be silly if they werent actually killing people


http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/11/16/how-the-islamic-state-declared-war-on-the-world-actual-state/


http://www.vocativ.com/332016/isis-declares-war-on-the-philippines-in-latest-beheading-video/


http://www.africametro.com/world-news/terrorist-caliphate-declares-war-with-china-india-rome


http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3410820/Now-ISIS-declares-war-Muslims-Latest-edition-terror-group-s-magazine-calls-Shia-Muslims-targeted.html

but they are actually killing people, a lot of people, and its pretty insulting (as well as incorrect to the point of absurdity) to suggest that usa is comparable

We absolutely treat people the same [EDIT: not "same" as in identical, "same" as in the same level of brutality] as them. It's just not publicized as heavily. It is against the law here to harm another based on sex, religion, race, etc, but it still happens. Although our government recognizes that it is wrong, that doesn't mean people will necessarily follow the law. We systematically discriminate, beat, and murder people who are "non-conformists" (and by "non-conformist", you mean not straight white Christian men, right?). But since it's a systematic problem, it's more difficult to lump them into an easily identifiable group, which is why we go nuts when we DO have a group to blame (like the Police). The Police are not the problem - we all are.

It's hypocrisy to say that "they" are worse than "we" are. We're just better at hiding and denying our own brutality

so, a country where "It is against the law here to harm another based on sex, religion, race, etc, but it still happens" there is going to be the same level of brutality as a culture of people who "stormed Sinjar, in northern Iraq, murdering around 3,000 men and older women and taking thousands women and girls into sexual slavery, repeatedly raping them and selling them between fighters in public marketplaces."

you dont see the difference here?

that one blatantly celebrates murder and rape and the other publicly denounces them and does actually try to punish those who commit them?

are you saying that because some slip through the cracks here in america that we are just as bad as those who would make it national policy (if it werent for the fatc that they dont have a nation, only territory they have invaded) to do such things a s a matter of ocurse?

you seem to be making the case that america is hiding a deliberate and prolific campaign of genocide and sexual slavery

would you please provide some sources to that effect?

dbl post

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The Dude,
War as a crime is a matter of opinion that I do not share. I understand your position towards humanity and I appreciate it but sometimes we also have to realize that we will never attain some enlightened state of nirvana on this planet. We as a species will always have to deal with conflict and we should always do our best to resolve that conflict with the most peaceful means available. Sometimes that will be through negotiation and compromise but sometimes it’s unavoidable that it will be through violence. To bury our heads in the sand and pretend that war can never an option is not a viable position. Yes life is sacred and should be held in highest regard but not higher regard than every human beings basic inalienable rights. When those rights are infringed upon through violence, it many times can only be met with equal violence. No being has any more right to live than another but no being is either so sacred that they should not be put down if they become rabid to humans as a species/subgroup. It’s just life and we are not any more special than any other form of life.

But they don't consider themselves to be rabid and thousands of their supporters don't, either. They are contesting their code of ethics against yours. Who are you or me to say "Shariah law is wrong"? It's a different code of ethics, sure. In our own doctrine, it says "... and how moral concepts are not absolute but vary by culture, religion and over time." I certainly don't personally support it, but I don't think there's any moral high ground to have. Have you ever heard the phrase "villains are just heroes of the other side"?
We, the USA, could be described in the same way. We invade other people's homelands. We usurp their leaders. We kill their civilians and combatants alike. We are indiscriminate in our killing often, and history has shown this to be true. Hiroshima and Nagasaki were not of major military importance as cities themselves. They were filled with civilians. We could have not bombed them, or bombed a military base, or done something to avoid civilian casualties, but we didn't. My Lai is a perfect example of indiscriminate killing by US forces, and those soldiers didn't receive any punishment. After all, they (like the Nazis) were "only following orders". Let's not forget our genocide of the Native Americans, our inexcusable use of slave labor, etc. For more modern examples, our xenophobic attitudes and common discrimination against Muslims. I know plenty of military members who wanted nothing more than to "kill ragheads" when they joined. Our bombs have killed innocent men, women and children within the past month, I'm sure. Certainly many innocent men, women, and children who had nothing at all to do with ISIS or any other terrorist organization have died over the last 6 months.
If we had a major ISIS group in the US and Germany successfully wiped them out, but killed your friends, family, and neighbors, would you strike out against Germany? Maybe, maybe not. But many people would. So how are we any better?

You prove my point yourself by asking the question “is war ever morally justified” and then you go on to state several reasons why it could be morally justified. Invasion being one of the more prominent. I submit that we have been invaded if one comes to this country with the intent to attack it whether that person be a part of an army or a lone individual that hijacks a plane. On your comments of invasion you seem to have an incredibly naive view of what an invasion would entail. It may be just a few missiles flying by but it could also be troops on the ground going home to home. What would you do if you found an enemy combatant raping your mother or your wife or girlfriend? Would you say oh let’s not meet violence with violence but instead find a way to all get along in that case? What these terrorists are doing to us is equivalent to rape on a societal level and they have no interest in “getting along” they have interest in oppression and domination.

I know what an invasion is. No ISIS members have flown planes into US buildings. ISIS isn't specifically attached to that. Al Qaeda, but not ISIS. And guess what? Al Qaeda has "declared war on ISIS". The people responsible for 9/11 are also fighting against the people we're fighting against. What a twist.
As I said before, self-defense is something I wholeheartedly support. If a person is trying to harm you, your lands, or the people you care about directly, then as I said -- give them a swift, merciful, and painless death. But there's nobody attacking my family. Nobody's invading my land and pillaging or raping. In other countries, yes, and if they want our help in defending themselves, we should help them. If they don't, we have no business getting involved. If we are formally attacked by ISIS, we have every reason to capture and imprison them or kill them in combat. We were justified to go to war with Japan precisely because they attacked us. We weren't justified to go to war in Vietnam because they didn't. We had to make up the Gulf of Tonkin incident to justify our entry. Because it's a lie, our war was unjustified.
If the Syrian government were to ask for the US's help to erase ISIS in the area, or the Lybian government, or Iraqi or Iranian or French or Turkish or any other country, as the most powerful military force on the planet we have a responsibility to help them defend their people. But otherwise we have no business going into their countries. We have no business bombing their civilians. We have no business committing acts of terrorism.

You say we can’t kill an ideology? Was the ideology of Nazism killed? I think it was and it took extreme means to accomplish that but it was successful. Today we don’t seem to have the resolve we once did to do what it takes to accomplish a similar goal with radical jihadists. As for them not being countries, on the contrary they do occupy land and have established bases.

http://www.businessinsider.com/heres-all-of-the-area-that-isis-controls-2015-3

Naziism is still alive and well today in the US and in other countries. They're still actively producing propaganda. The recently banned Youtube user, Evalion, is a good example of this; here is a link to one of her videos.
But terrorist groups and Nazis are completely different. It only takes one terrorist with a pipebomb to commit an act of terrorism. And there's certainly more than one Nazi around today. What makes you think no more terrorists would pop up? At least with the Nazis, they need actual political influence in order to reach their goals, and they try to do everything legitimately. But with terrorists, it only takes one person. You and I can easily make explosives if we want to. It's not difficult. What makes you think that some other person can't? Supposing the ability to make an explosive is well known and it only takes one person to commit a terrorist attack, there's no way that you're ever going to stop them. The "war on terror" is an exercise in futility.
Anyone, at any time, can put together a bomb and kill a lot of people. It's not difficult. Anyone with a copy of The Anarchist's Cookbook can do it in less than 10 minutes and with a negligible cost. The US kills innocent men, women, and children in drone strikes and that has its consequences. I don't support acts of terrorism, but I can see that they quickly become an inevitability in the situation we have helped to create.

If you want to kill radical Islam, you've got an impossible task. Killing all of the radicals will only produce more radicals. Eventually you would just be committing genocide.

OB1Shinobi wrote: so, a country where "inst the law here to harm another based on sex, religion, race, etc, but it still happens" there is going to be the same level of brutality as a culture of people who "stormed Sinjar, in northern Iraq, murdering around 3,000 men and older women and taking thousands women and girls into sexual slavery, repeatedly raping them and selling them between fighters in public marketplaces."

you dont see the difference here?

that one blatantly celebrates murder and rape and the other publicly denounces them and does actually try to punish those who commit them?

because some slip through the cracks we are just as bad as those who would make it national policy (if it werent for the fatc that they dont have a nation, only territory they have invaded)

you think america is hiding a deliberate and prolific campaign of genocide and sexual slavery?

would you please provide some sources to that effect?

Yes, there is absolutely a sexual slave market in the USA (which includes domestic and imported victims), including children, "mail order brides", and a trafficked women. PLUS all of the above in the form of pornographic videos and photographs.

Yes, woman are being raped and sexually assaulted at an alarming rate, and they are doubted and blamed.

Yes, there are groups in America that are calling for the murder of other groups of people (ex. capital punishment, pro-lifers, neo-nazis, anti-LGBT groups). And there are people who do perpetrate these murders, although they are somewhat retrained by the law and so tend to work sporadically and not as groups (they're mainly connected by ideology rather than an organized group). Go ahead and ask a black trans woman (or any other intersectional person, really) in any given American city and she'll probably tell you that she lives in fear of harm every time she steps foot outside her home - if she even has one.

The fact that laws exist to combat discrimination simply pushes it underground. So if the only difference is that some people/groups can be brutal openly and others need to hide it, is it REALLY a difference after all?

Leah Starspectre wrote: Yes, woman are being raped and sexually assaulted at an alarming rate, and they are doubted and blamed.

Kind of off-topic, but people are innocent until proven guilty. A good friend of mine was recently falsely accused of rape by an ex girlfriend. Just that accusation could have easily ruined his entire life. It could have removed all opportunities he might have had in the future. It scared the hell out of him and she almost got away with it. False reports are a common occurrence, unfortunately. We shouldn't just take someone's word on something so serious. Blaming genuine victims for what happened to them is wrong, yes, but there is nothing wrong with doubting someone's claim regarding sexual assault, battery, or rape when we currently live in a climate where false reports are so common.
There is currently a trend in feminism which tries to downplay these things, or worse, manipulates statistics to make it seem as if they don't happen or don't happen nearly as often as they do. I've seen reports online of it being as low as 0% of claims, 8% of claims, etc. But when my friend was dealing with the police, they told him outright that nearly 40% of rape claims that they deal with are false and the vast majority of those false claims don't even make it to court because they're so obviously false. In my friend's case, he wasn't even in the state on the day that his accuser said he raped her. So it was thrown away immediately. But if he didn't have such a clear piece of evidence against her claim, he could be rotting in some cell right now unjustly. And I'm sure that many falsely accused people are doing that right now because they didn't have any such evidence.
That's not to say that rape isn't horrible, but false reports happen a lot and doubt is never a bad thing.

TheDude wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote: Yes, woman are being raped and sexually assaulted at an alarming rate, and they are doubted and blamed.

Kind of off-topic, but people are innocent until proven guilty. A good friend of mine was recently falsely accused of rape by an ex girlfriend. Just that accusation could have easily ruined his entire life. It could have removed all opportunities he might have had in the future. It scared the hell out of him and she almost got away with it. False reports are a common occurrence, unfortunately. We shouldn't just take someone's word on something so serious. Blaming genuine victims for what happened to them is wrong, yes, but there is nothing wrong with doubting someone's claim regarding sexual assault, battery, or rape when we currently live in a climate where false reports are so common.
There is currently a trend in feminism which tries to downplay these things, or worse, manipulates statistics to make it seem as if they don't happen or don't happen nearly as often as they do. I've seen reports online of it being as low as 0% of claims, 8% of claims, etc. But when my friend was dealing with the police, they told him outright that nearly 40% of rape claims that they deal with are false and the vast majority of those false claims don't even make it to court because they're so obviously false. In my friend's case, he wasn't even in the state on the day that his accuser said he raped her. So it was thrown away immediately. But if he didn't have such a clear piece of evidence against her claim, he could be rotting in some cell right now unjustly. And I'm sure that many falsely accused people are doing that right now because they didn't have any such evidence.
That's not to say that rape isn't horrible, but false reports happen a lot and doubt is never a bad thing.

Any false report is harmful... but that doesn't mean it isn't happening, which was my point: Rape happens. It's STILL happening. And it's a sign of a troubled society that women don't feel safe in their communities.

Leah Starspectre wrote:
Any false report is harmful... but that doesn't mean it isn't happening, which was my point: Rape happens. It's STILL happening. And it's a sign of a troubled society that women don't feel safe in their communities.

No it is not a sign of a troubled society that people do not feel safe. The fact is that the world is getting better and safer as I have shown more then once. Its peoples PERCEPTION that is the issue. Bad people have always and will always exist. There is a difference between living fearfully and living mindfully. Sure its good to be mindful but its destructive to be fearful. A man is more likely to be a victim of violence of some sort then a women Does this mean I as a smaller guy should live in fear of being jumped or mugged? No that is letting emotion not peace rule my heart. It is one thing to live aware that dangers are possible and take steps to be safe, its another to create a climate of fear like the news and many popular media sources do.

MadHatter wrote:

Leah Starspectre wrote:
Any false report is harmful... but that doesn't mean it isn't happening, which was my point: Rape happens. It's STILL happening. And it's a sign of a troubled society that women don't feel safe in their communities.

No it is not a sign of a troubled society that people do not feel safe. The fact is that the world is getting better and safer as I have shown more then once. Its peoples PERCEPTION that is the issue. Bad people have always and will always exist. There is a difference between living fearfully and living mindfully. Sure its good to be mindful but its destructive to be fearful. A man is more likely to be a victim of violence of some sort then a women Does this mean I as a smaller guy should live in fear of being jumped or mugged? No that is letting emotion not peace rule my heart. It is one thing to live aware that dangers are possible and take steps to be safe, its another to create a climate of fear like the news and many popular media sources do.

I think there may be a difference between men being the victim of violence and a man being involved in violent situations. That could just be playing semantics, though. I'm a very tall and powerful woman, but I still can't help but be on my guard when walking alone, or try not to meet eyes with a man who is ogling or catcalling me on the street , or try to slip away from a man who is being a little TOO friendly at a bar.

I think it's hard to understand the ingrained fear that many groups have: women, LGBT, First Nations, ethnic minorities....It's not the same kind of fear. It's one that comes from a lifetime of seeing the same harmful behaviour coming out of the culture that is supposed to nurture you. For some it's full blown fear, and well-justified, and in some cases (life my own) it's a more of a discomfort. But it's there and to deny its there's is contributing to the problem by not working to rectify it, and is ultimately harmful.

But that goes for all the points I brought up. If we don't acknowledge that the problem is there, we will never be able to improve it. I don't say solve, because I think that much of it is simply the dark side of humanity and will never go away, but if we can try to improve it, we're going the right thing.