"Non-White Jedi" Discussions

Cabur Senaar wrote: Respectfully, I disagree. There is no harm in looking for people with whom one shares context.

Cabur Senaar,

And in that I do not disagree with you -- I think there is a natural tendency to seek the company of others with similar or shared experiences. However, the post and content in question wasn't "I'm looking for [such and such]" so much as "I'm looking for anyone EXCEPT [such and such]". The post was titled "Any Other Non-White Jedi Here?" and I suspect that if a person athored a post titled, "Any Other Non-Black Jedi Here" there would have been a similar backlash.

-Mindas Ar'ran

Mindas Arran wrote: Mahoganygipson,

You made a discriminatory post. I'm surprised that you thought the discussion would go in any other direction. You posted issues that are ubiqutous to the human condition and used it as justification to dismiss an entire group of people and their experiences based on the color of their skin.

- Mindas Ar'ran

If I wanted to dismiss all of white people I wouldn't be on this site at all. Or any other Jediism site. Finding commonalities isn't discrimination. Sometimes people need a SPACE place where they won't feel excluded/harassed.

I just watched the first part of Lesson 1. I see how this "we are all the same" idea embedded itself so deeply in the community. That would be ideal (as Joseph stated) but it's not reality at the moment. At the moment, non-white people struggle. You can't deny that. Non-cis people, non-straight people. They were born a certain way and suffer for it. If people desire a place to talk about certain things that pertain to them in the context of their spirituality, they shouldn't be persecuted.

If you read this post thoroughly. It's not just skin color it's culture. I wouldn't have a problem with non-Asian people living in Japan starting a Group. Why? Because they're experiences are unique. Even if a white person who was raised surrounded by Japanese people they would have a different perspective. They would be treated differently (even if it's in a positive way). They might act differently, eat differently, do their hair differently. It's not wrong for them to want a place to talk about their feelings. Women working in male dominated careers also seek a platform. Very tall people want to talk about things that I can't understand. Differences are okay. To act as if those differences don't exist would be disrespectful to who everyone is as a person.

Mindas Arran wrote:

Cabur Senaar wrote: Respectfully, I disagree. There is no harm in looking for people with whom one shares context.

Cabur Senaar,

And in that I do not disagree with you -- I think there is a natural tendency to seek the company of others with similar or shared experiences. However, the post and content in question wasn't "I'm looking for [such and such]" so much as "I'm looking for anyone EXCEPT [such and such]". The post was titled "Any Other Non-White Jedi Here?" and I suspect that if a person athored a post titled, "Any Other Non-Black Jedi Here" there would have been a similar backlash.

-Mindas Ar'ran

If black people were the majority I don't see the problem with asking if there are non-black people here. I know what it's like to be unusual. Find the people you relate to.

Mindas Arran wrote: However, the post and content in question wasn't "I'm looking for [such and such]" so much as "I'm looking for anyone EXCEPT [such and such]". The post was titled "Any Other Non-White Jedi Here?" and I suspect that if a person athored a post titled, "Any Other Non-Black Jedi Here" there would have been a similar backlash.

-Mindas Ar'ran

You can't compare the experiences of a minority group to those of the majority. Well, you can try, but you'd probably come off looking like a jerk.

hey look we all are jerks sometimes - im a jerk at least twice a week and im not just saying that, you can ask and people will tell you lol

we all have a perspective, we all speak our truths

we dont have to see eye to eye and even if you dont believe someone elses perspective is valid, its a great exercise in jedi discipline to be in control of the mood that one culitvates with ones words

i wish someone would have said that outright to me what i started posting here lol all the hair i raised and feelings i hurt

---

EDIT
then again, maybe you did and i didnt want to hear

I feel like the "we're all the same" thing has particularly sinister implications when one considers who it usually comes from: people who are privileged by race, wealth, social status, etc. Like Joseph Campbell, who was white, male and made stupid amounts of money off his work. It's easy to say "we're all the same" when you've got it made. In fact, it's psychologically advantageous to do so: by assuming that everyone is like you, who has never been troubled by police at random or had to live without a nice house, garage, car and gadgets, you're denying yourself the bitter truth of the matter. Recognizing that there are people who have to live their lives vastly differently from our own, in fear of things we never have to fear, is a difficult pill to swallow. Most people don't do it. Most people don't even try to understand what it's like for people who are the "other."

I should stress: I don't think people gravitate toward Campbell-esque "colourblindness" out of willful ignorance. Rather, I suspect it's a survival mechanism. Being confronted with the reality of things, that not everyone has a life worth envying, is a challenge. Most people aren't up for it, and the people that think they are find it unexpectedly difficult. My hometown is a minority-majority city and I went to black majority schools until high school, and I *still* have a hard time confronting that fact, being white-as-it-gets and born into a relatively stable economic environment. I do suspect there are some people in power who want to push a narrative of holding-hands-and-singing-Kumbaya without actually fixing the disparities and inequalities that exist, because if we're not *all* upset about them, it's likely little progress will happen. But I don't think that is why that ignorance exists.

It's a totally different thing, but when I lived overseas I was delighted to encounter an American, Canadian or British person, simply because they were someone who I knew probably had similar experiences to me. Had I spent more time abroad I suspect I would have gone out of my way to find such people. One of my friends who is from Germany and lived in Japan admitted that it was far more comfortable for her to just seek out other Germans and hang out with them. Local people simply didn't understand exactly what it was like for her being a (female!) European who was trying to succeed in Japan of all places. Unity in diversity is important, but it's a challenge to stand on one's own whether it's because of one's race, nationality, gender identity or sexual orientation, or any other factor.

Anyway, I am glad you are here, Mahogany, and I really admire your courage in standing up for yourself like this. This community needs more people like you.

Mindas Arran wrote: Mahoganygipson,

You made a discriminatory post. I'm surprised that you thought the discussion would go in any other direction. You posted issues that are ubiqutous to the human condition and used it as justification to dismiss an entire group of people and their experiences based on the color of their skin.

- Mindas Ar'ran

There is NOTHING inflammatory about seeking those with a similar experience and the majority doesn't need to be included in every breath.

Being a Jedi does not mean you automatically see every angle. I miss more stuff than I see. And when we think we have the whole picture, that's when the real trouble starts. Objectivity is an ugly illusion, in my opinion.

Issues of race and privelidge are difficult to discuss. People tend to treat their own experiences as the norm, so if they don't experience it, it must not be so. Our community is not significantly better about his stuff than any other. I suspect I don't really need to tell you.

This could easily be said from the other side too. Just because you had a bad experience doesn't mean everyone like you has had that experience. And as far as "privilege" goes, minorities have privileges too. They have the privilege of getting into college easier, getting scholarships based on their minority, getting hired sometimes because diversity is "needed" rather than ability. Whereas white people get shamed and blamed for the crimes of their ancestors and for a privilege a lot of lower-middle and lower class white people don't have. Creating something exclusive to POC is just as racist as making something exclusive to white people. And really this whole conversation about privilege is really quite stupid. The only reason white people seem to have more "privilege" in the west is because most people in the west are white. Go to China and the privileged are Chinese, go to Saudi Arabia and the privileged are Arabic. Privilege isn't based on race. Its caused by socio-economic status.

Kymos Akari wrote: The only reason white people seem to have more "privilege" in the west is because most people in the west are white.

Nah. It's because they're white. In Canada, First Nations (that is, indigenous/native) people "live in conditions akin to those in countries that rank much lower [in human development standards] and in which poverty abounds." (source) Would you call those people privileged? They do live in the west. Curiously, the United Nations final report on that specific case makes no mention of purely socio-economic causes. Rather, it is a case of both governments and ordinary non-indigenous people intentionally treating them as even lower than second-class citizens.

In the United States, the situation re: African-Americans is similar. Are there socio-economic problems? Certainly. But are there also problems that are simply down to systemic, institutional and widespread racism? Definitely. My hometown became infamous for a U.S. Supreme Court case that ruled busing students to different schools to effect desegregation was an appropriate, effective and constitutional remedy for segregation. It worked: Charlotte's "salad bowl" neighbourhoods became "salt and pepper" instead, and there was racial equity in much of the city.

When busing ended at the end of the 20th century, the city quickly reverted back to a sort of segregation that it had not seen in decades — "white flight" took hold again. It hasn't gotten any better since then. This is not simply down to economics. I know that there is a popular U.S. presidential candidate who insists that all of these problems are simply rooted in economics, but there's a lot more to it than that. Honestly, if you think a conversation about privilege is "stupid," I imagine you do not have much experience of life without it. That sort of thinking is common among my white Canadian friends who say that First Nations people really don't have it all that bad, when every ounce of evidence says otherwise.

EDIT: As a late edit, I want to add something. You say that in China, Chinese people are more privileged and in Saudi Arabia, Arabs are more privileged. This is (probably) true. Both countries are notoriously hostile to outsiders and have very close-minded societies and governments. This could also be said of Japanese people in Japan, certainly for the exact same reasons. But what of a country that is open to foreigners, like Indonesia?

Well, it's only anecdotal evidence for now, but every single Indonesian I know, ranging from the upper-most 1% to solidly middle-class (by Indonesian standards), both from Jakarta and from the sticks, says that white foreigners, especially Americans, are overwhelmingly preferred for virtually every job they can get by in, especially in education. Not only this, but they are also paid much, much better than locals. They are also (generally) not expected to be fluent in Indonesian. Some English teachers in Jakarta don't even speak a word of it. My teacher friend says that they are generally held to much lower standards than native Indonesians, simply because having a white person around is prestigious on its own. Is that also a socio-economic thing and totally irrelevant to race?

People probably don't like having labels asserted over them for reasons like gender, race, wealth etc. I think the preference is to see each other as individuals, Jedi, defining ourselves towards equality rather then away from discrimination. It means the same thing as a direction of movement, but as the direction of focus the difference might manifest different results in terms of progress..... the whole focus determines the reality thing.

No doubt we all have unique subjective views of the world from our own unique experiences, and sometimes elements of that get shared with others which can be used to explore and understand our own and each others existence. Nothing wrong with that IMO!!!!

And so it could be lots of different things which define those shared set of experiences. It is why I seeked clarification to edit the subject heading of the other thread which originally said 'minorities' and not 'non-black'. As mentioned I think its fine to ask to talk to specific groups of people, but I think doing so has to watch it does not get blurred by exerting a particular groups own shared subjective experience as the parameters for how others must experience their own lives who might fit into the other group. Such that if someone fits into one majority group from one persons point of view, it should not necessarily mean that the person has had the experience which is being equated to the group. That is when things start to cross into discrimination land, as far as I can tell. Not saying its happening now here, just talking about the topic generally.

I do have a habit of typing a lot of words and not saying much