Opinions on Brexit?

Brick wrote: I'm sure a lot of you have already seen it, but here's Jonathan Pie's Referendum Special:

*WARNING: contains strong language

https://youtu.be/jGC5S3ag1q0

Excellent assesment hehehe , i dont envy you Brits , you have the choice between the Devil and the deep Blue Twats

V-Tog wrote:

Brick wrote:

V-Tog wrote: Did anyone watch the ITV debate last night?

I wish I hadn't...

Unfortunately I missed it, I'm sure I'll find it on catch up though. Any particular reason you regret watching it? Or will I understand once i see it?

Aqua wrote: If I may ask, what happened during the ITV debate?

I think you'll probably understand if you see it, Brick...

Since I first posted in this thread I've got off the fence and set up permanent residence in the Remain camp - but the ITV debate made me want nothing to do with any of it. The way I saw it, the Leave panel probably 'won' the debate, coming across much more eloquently and calmly than Remain who seemed to be struggling to form coherent arguments through their indignation - but, honestly, I found the whole thing quite frightening. The idea that these are the sorts of people that we elect to look after our welfare, when clearly all any of them are interested in is their own... :blink:

And, is it just me, or is it a bit bonkers to make Nicola Sturgeon the face of a Remain panel preaching the virtues of interdependence and integration and generally not buggering off to try to function as an isolated unit??

The EU makes a fairer and more democratic federation than the UK, so it makes perfect sense for scotland. Heck if scotland declared independence from the UK after a brexit, a scottish euro would go much farther than a scottish pound ever did. Scotland is not the only region to have envisaged declaring independence from its current state yet remain in the EU. It would make more sense in fact if this were the direction the EU took, as it would mean the commission could be dismantled and be replaced with a higher chamber of parliament comprising of directly elected region presidents.

Brick wrote: I'm sure a lot of you have already seen it, but here's Jonathan Pie's Referendum Special:

*WARNING: contains strong language

https://youtu.be/jGC5S3ag1q0

Jonathan Pie is hilarious, he's like the British Jon Stewart. Props to Akkarin, he addressed several of my points spot on.

The whole issue seems to be tied into multiple aspects that are too often muddled together. This Pie episode perfectly addresses the representation/democracy aspect of the vote. Yes, the EU is murky enough to compete with FIFA for corruption, but the whole thing works theoretically. Regardless, you shouldn't vote to stay just to spite a Tory majority.

Economy: The EU/Eurozone is largely Germany keeping the sinking ship afloat. Britain is the 2nd largest economy in the EU, and trades within the Eurozone account for a majority of that. Were Britain to leave, TTIP wouldn't likely go through, so depending on your views of that, there's a point. The EU has largely become a relatively well-paid labor pool that's been increasingly underused as immigration saturates the lower portion.
Greece, Italy, Portugal, Ireland, and Cyprus all have debt that outpaces their GDP and matching abysmal unemployment. While the possibility of a Grexit was quickly shot down in 2010 due to the large investment in Greece by the EU, a top-down exit would have similar removal of support but at the discretion of the investors. Luckily, Britain is already outside of the Eurozone, so they only feel the aftershocks of the continued mismanagement of South-Eastern Europe.

Immigration: Britain has been spared the blunt force of Syrian conflict spillover. Early on, France unofficially threatened to open the chunnel which would have spurred the isolationist movement further. As long as another Sangatte or Calais camp doesn't arise, Immigration shouldn't be a problem. Additionally, British security has historically been much stronger at preventing disasters like those in Brussels and Paris.

Foreign Policy: Were the Brexit to happen, it might spur on Scotland to another independence referendum, but that realistically wouldn't happen until well afterwards (during which time, it could also arise organically). The Brexit would likely discourage the completion of the 2014 Ukraine-EU treaty, and push Eastern Europe back to Russia. As MartaLina alluded, the Netherlands have tended to oppose EU integration through referendums.

Don't oversimplify the issue or worse give in to fear mongering or petty partisanship. Not that it's been a problem here, but elsewhere voters tend to be up in arms.

I really wish that all the 'debates' that happen in the TotJO would have the sincere-minded and informed quality that this one has had by all participants ...

My political knowledge is entirely too under-developed to make any sort of commentary. When I do get the occasional opportunity to talk to those people, my only platform is that of moral philosophy/ethics -- which never gets too very insistant on anything -- just bringing up some things that aren't out-shouted by the PIB devotees.

My ""opinion"" of the Brexit proposition has nothing to do with PIB, immigration, mega-corporations or unemployment ... it is just very personal (thus egotistical, illogical and totally unworthy of the rest of this 'debate'), that is, because several people I love very much live there and somehow it is reassuring to me that we live in more-or-less the same Union. That is all ... If Britain leaves, it would feel like we were children of divorced parents who just divvied up the kids.

Well, like I said, there's nothing useful in any of that so I'll just go back to my first point : this has been an informative and well-tempered discussion. Thank you ... !

Alexandre Orion wrote: I really wish that all the 'debates' that happen in the TotJO would have the sincere-minded and informed quality that this one has had by all participants ...

My political knowledge is entirely too under-developed to make any sort of commentary. When I do get the occasional opportunity to talk to those people, my only platform is that of moral philosophy/ethics -- which never gets too very insistant on anything -- just bringing up some things that aren't out-shouted by the PIB devotees.

My ""opinion"" of the Brexit proposition has nothing to do with PIB, immigration, mega-corporations or unemployment ... it is just very personal (thus egotistical, illogical and totally unworthy of the rest of this 'debate'), that is, because several people I love very much live there and somehow it is reassuring to me that we live in more-or-less the same Union. That is all ... If Britain leaves, it would feel like we were children of divorced parents who just divvied up the kids.

Well, like I said, there's nothing useful in any of that so I'll just go back to my first point : this has been an informative and well-tempered discussion. Thank you ... !

Actually that is very usefull , i did not see it as that , we get so overfed with poliics and rethorics that we are missing the point of pure "togetherness" ..family even indeed , thank you for this Alex , you certainly make me think !

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M-saz5emRGs

That's a cute music video. So what's the result of the vote? I think that despite the lovely 'we are together/united and have a common cause' the EU was brainchild of billionaires and globalists, it serves their interests primarily and we get thrown the cookies of Schengen, etc. They aren't people who want to see everyone in Europe united and happy, they see the people of Europe as a resource, each country as a part of their desired system and the traditions, cultures, relative sovereignty of each nation are an obstacle to them they want to break down for profit and control. Of course in the world we are one species, but today it's being sold that it's cool to eliminate all borders, thinking all cultures will assimilate with one another. The big guns (Soros and Rothschild) are out to make sure there is no Brexit however.

Someone email that to Farage plz

Well, this is it. Decision Day and I still have no clue which way I'm voting :blush:

I'm a little bit scared about either outcome...

We won't know the result of the vote until tomorrow and there's no exit poll.

Not sure what you mean by the Schengen reference, the UK is not a part of Schengen.

Billionaires and Globalists? The EU is far more protectionist than it is globalist with the UK probably the most globalist country in the EU. No one is saying the EU is perfect, but wouldn't these billionaires and globalists exist in each country regardless of membership of the EU? Wouldn't there always those who would wish to use people as a resource?

The EU sets out a series of common minimum standards which all countries within it have to follow to be members.

Accession criteria

political criteria: stability of institutions guaranteeing democracy, the rule of law, human rights and respect for and protection of minorities;
economic criteria: a functioning market economy and the capacity to cope with competition and market forces;
administrative and institutional capacity to effectively implement the acquis*[treaties and rulings] and ability to take on the obligations of membership.

Without these common standards countries are incentivised to compete with each other. Now I'm not against competition per se, but isn't it a good idea to have minimum standards saying "We won't undermine the rule of law or human rights in our quest to compete with other nations"? One only has to look at the rule of law in countries such as Ukraine and Russia to see what happens when government becomes more synonymous with organised crime to understand the importance of the EU's political aspect.

Let us not forget that many countries in the EU have only been democratic for about 25 years (the fall of communism). There have been many protests in Poland against the governments undermining of the rule of law in recent months. Some countries need the EU's guiding hand.

What about Balkan states? These countries were at war with each other 25 years ago, now they share common purpose in trying to ascend to the EU.

The UK does not need the EU for peace and stability, because we are still a world power. We can quite happily get along without it. But for some countries the EU represents the greatest economic and political opportunity they have ever had, it is their best hope for securing peace and prosperity. The EU magnifies the influence of British values such as democratic governance, market competition and the rule of law.

If the UK left it would severely undermine this effort. Other countries may start breaking away and it would be a huge boost to the dangerous nationalism which has emerged in recent years and was the cause of much of Europe's woes in the past.

The EU, for all its flaws, is the greatest thing to ever happen to the European continent, why resign instead of reform?, why leave instead of lead?

EDIT:

Brick wrote: Well, this is it. Decision Day and I still have no clue which way I'm voting :blush:

I'm a little bit scared about either outcome...

We can always choose to leave again at some point again in the future, if you're unsure it seems better to leave your options open