White Privilege

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

E-3_4L_Teeter wrote:

MAGNUS wrote: K-12 is more propaganda than learning.

That. That right there is where we need to start.

Smart citizens are harder to control. I have a hard time believing the education system will get anything but worse for this reason.

My views have changed quite a lot since I wrote this. Funny how that can happen

Since we're talking about education and its failure, I thought I would add some non-traditional educational videos on the subject of whiteness and education.

On the definition of Caucasian: ( Facebook link )

On the whiteness of wealth: ( Facebook link )

How many people who are posting here are people of color?

Locksley wrote: How many people who are posting here are people of color?

I've been told I have a very colorful personality, but I don't think that's what you mean. :laugh:

When discussing racial privilege compared to the privilege that comes with wealth and fame, the O.J. Simpson criminal case is a fascinating example. People most often assume the verdict was all about a black jury supporting a black defendant against a racist white LAPD, but what people forget is that most of the black community in Los Angeles did not consider O.J. to be one of them. He was a rich guy living in Brentwood married to a white woman hanging out with the country club elite. He is a poster child for what most consider to be "white privilege" including the special treatment he received from the legal system.

The verdict was an opportunity for the black community to strike back at oppressive white cops and Johnny Cochran knew it. He had a famous athlete that many blacks looked up to and he rode this sentiment to a "not guilty" verdict by playing the race card handed to him by a few stupid detectives, but interestingly enough, most of the black community shunned O.J. after the trial because he still acted too "white".

In the end, the trial was all about the lawyers O.J. could afford and the privilege his wealth and fame allowed him. None of us, black or white, can expect that type of privilege unless we are rich or famous. It's about the money.

my real problem isnt with "white privilege" as much as the toxic obnoxiousness of the people who push the idea

like these darling little revolutionaries and their poster campaign to make sure everyone "checks their privilege": http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1989915-Missouri-State-University-at-it-again-with-that-Priviledge-checking

"Missouri State Students Warned: Police Only Exist To Protect White Male Privilege"


like the idea that black people cant be racist

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8eTWZ80z9EE

her essential argument is predicated on "the sociological" definition of power

webers is the most common
“the ability of an individual or group to achieve their own goals or aims when others are trying to prevent them from realising them”
or
"the ability to exercise ones will over another, even if they resist" which is even worse, as it completely diregards the power of say, hosting a bake sale to generate funds to improve the playground at a local park, or earning a doctorate

what the woman in the video isnt recognizing is that

1) Im studying sociology and sociologists theories, and many of them really arent that smart

2) weber probably should have left it at "the ability of an individual or group to achieve their own goals or aims"

3) power, even by weber's definition, is a relative thing, and that relativity causes shifts from circumstance to circumstance, and does not preclude even an otherwise oppressed individual from having some degree of power in some limited context or circumstance

a black woman be low on the relative scale of power, statistically speaking
but she may also be oprah winfrey

or my sociology professor, who has a definite power over me right now

and this is just a witty little image which can save you the time of reading my whole post, as it pretty much conveys the bulk of my intended meaning

Akayuki wrote: The existence of any higher form of privilege, rights, and quality of life sets the universal standard of living to that point

this is elon musk

he has far more privileges and a much greater quality of life than I do

he is originally from south africa, but i think is an american citizen now, in which case we would both have the same rights

that his are less likely to be violated than mine, and that he is better equiped to defend them if they are violated, is obviously true, and we can agree is the definition of injustice

this is jeffry dahmer , he is dead now, murdered by another inmate, but during the time of this interview, many of his rights had been taken from him, and what privileges he may have enjoyed were totally contingent upon his behavior
it should go without saying that his quality of life was lower than my own

Akayuki wrote: So white privilege is the standard by which all other systems of rights and quality of life will be judged.

ive just pointed out two white men, do either of them set "the standard by which all other systems of rights and quality of life will be judged."

Akayuki wrote: ... to believe otherwise is to believe that there are some in this world that deserve greater rights and quality of living than others.

i think ive made a pretty good case that in fact, some do

at least i have made the case that individual choices, achievements, and circumstances are highly relevant to this discussion

Akayuki wrote: Yes it is a thing. It will be a thing as long as there are people who, because of the colour of their skin, do not have the same standards of living and rights.

i want to make sure to express that i am not denying the reality of racism, and i am not denying that minorities are more likely to experience discrimination based on their race

but i do want to point out that "rights" and "standard of living" are quite different things, and "privileges" is yet a third

the history of racial discrimination in America, particularly against blacks, has resulted in a very large number of people being born into economic disadvantage, and having a more difficult time improving that situation would than the average white person would, and that ignoring and denying this reality is probably the biggest reason why it hasnt been fixed yet

but again, acknowledging that minorities face disadvantages compared to the people in the majority is a far cry from accepting the idea that those in the majority are all guilty of any kind of wrong doing for the simple act of having been born in the majority

Akayuki wrote: So yes the statement that it isn't about the privilege of white people but about the lack of privilege other races have is accurate and at the same time irrelevant.

thats where we disagree - it is the only part that is relevant imo

the problem is that there are people who do not fully experience the respect and opportunity that is supposed to be associated with being a citizen of the united states

it is NOT a problem that most people DO exerience them

but the way that you increase privileges and opportunity is by working to achieve them, not by bashing the ones who already have them

i understand making the case to appeal to peoples empathy, I AM empathetic in most instances (not all) but the empathy vanishes in the face of people who point their fingers and talk down as if i personally have done something to them or as if i am to answer for the unfairness of the world

Jamie Stick wrote: Since we're talking about education and its failure, I thought I would add some non-traditional educational videos on the subject of whiteness and education.

On the definition of Caucasian: ( Facebook link )

On the whiteness of wealth: ( Facebook link )

i should have responded directly to you first, im sorry

i dont really care about the word "caucasian" to be honest, but ok, she has done a good job of indicting the word with racism

that doesnt mean that toby mcguire is a racist

more likely it means hes NOT a caucasian

the second video was better as it does present information that people should be aware of

but she is still using racist language, and she is still equating all white people with wealth, and with oppression

and again i have to say, the problem is not that there are rich white people

the problem is that, though we have made great progress in a short amount of time, there is still a great segment of the population which faces severe economic disadvantage

we dont change that by denigrating or shaming white people for being white - that will create hostility where you would otherwise find friends

the energy being spent on the "white men suck" campaign would be more useful in a "how do we help black people graduate college and open their own businesses?" campaign

OB1Shinobi wrote:
but she is still using racist language, and she is still equating all white people with wealth, and with oppression

That's because racism is systemic, not a bad habit like smoking or drinking excessively. The whole damn system is broken and it can't be fixed until whiteness is no longer a thing (and by that I don't mean genocide of a certain pale-skinned demographic).

Frankly, I hate the term white privilege because it, along with a lot of other trite terms used in 'social justice' circles, do not adequately articulate the problem. It isn't white privilege that I am concerned with, it's white supremacy. So long as whiteness is the key to access to the best of what society has to offer then we have a problem.

OB1Shinobi wrote: and again i have to say, the problem is not that there are rich white people

Yeah, you're probably right, but they're a part of it.

OB1Shinobi wrote: the problem is that, though we have made great progress in a short amount of time, there is still a great segment of the population which faces severe economic disadvantage

Economic barriers are only part of the problem. There's still the issue of police brutality , food deserts , housing discrimination , and much much more.

I've shared much of this information before and it gets ignored, but I'm hoping maybe the umpteenth time is the charm.

OB1Shinobi wrote: we dont change that by denigrating or shaming white people for being white - that will create hostility where you would otherwise find friends

the energy being spent on the "white men suck" campaign would be more useful in a "how do we help black people graduate college and open their own businesses?" campaign

nah, hurting white people's feelings doesn't take up even a fraction of the required energy needed to solve systemic racism, and that's precisely why people of color do it. It's hard to comprehend if you're white, especially if you're a white man, but when you're looking at a nearly impossible feat of overthrowing whiteness and white supremacy sometimes it can be cathartic to take potshots at whiteness with salient comments about everything absurd or wrong with white people.

Still seems like reverse discrimination even if it is partially accurate. I thought the whole point of the anti-discrimination movement was to avoid this sort of thing, making generalizations to underpin accusations, and in this instance being skin color or 'race'. There is no doubt the concept of privilege exists in established successful majority groups, but since its not limited to whites and does not include all whites, it seems a counter-productive label to its intended purpose.

Adder wrote: Still seems like reverse discrimination even if it is partially accurate. I thought the whole point of the anti-discrimination movement was to avoid this sort of thing, making generalizations to underpin accusations, and in this instance being skin color or 'race'. There is no doubt the concept of privilege exists in established successful majority groups, but since its not limited to whites and does not include all whites, it seems a counter-productive label to its intended purpose.

I can appreciate where this sentiment is coming from, but I'm not really sure it can be called discrimination. People of color don't have the institutional power to systematically exclude white people from anything.

If you can divorce the criticisms of whiteness from yourself as a white person, to realize it is not a personal attack but an attack on whiteness as a social and economic institution, then it might make more sense.