Man ...

ow , thats why i am always hungry , its not just me , its the stupid design :laugh:

OB1Shinobi wrote: what about volcanoes and tornadoes?

they are powerful to the point that we cannot withstand them
and if we do not recognize them as dangerous to us, there will be fatal consequences when we encounter them
but are the words "friendly" and "hostile" appropriate to understanding them?
is a tornado being playful when it destroys a home? is it angry?

what if you found out that the universe is essentially hostile?
would that change your commitment to being friendly yourself?

would you choose to become hostile?

or would you still choose "to become the change you wish to see in the world"?

maybe the universe is just powerful - maybe it is extremely powerful, and utterly impersonal

and its up to you (us) to decide how you (we) want to navigate that

The point i was trying to make earlier is that the universe is neither friendky or hostile. It is just the universe. Just like a lion or a tornado is not friendly or hostile. They just do what they do because that is what they are designed to do. There is no ill intent nor is there beneficial intent. None of those things are "bent on our destruction" nor do they wish us ill will and they dont have a mission to attack us that we need to defend from. They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The point i was trying to make earlier is that the universe is neither friendky or hostile. It is just the universe. Just like a lion or a tornado is not friendly or hostile. They just do what they do because that is what they are designed to do. There is no ill intent nor is there beneficial intent. None of those things are "bent on our destruction" nor do they wish us ill will and they dont have a mission to attack us that we need to defend from. They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

i appreciate your point

i think we have different associations with the words and phrases such as "hostile" and "universe" and "ill and beneficial intent" and "mission to attack us that we need to defend from"

a boa constrictor is not socially hostile - it wont spread rumors about me or make nasty comments on my facebook page

lions dont have war councils and strategy meetings where orchestrate complicated attacks on national infrastructure

but if i am small enough to fit in an boas mouth, or if a group of lions find me unarmed or unawares out on the plains, they will all eat me

if youre walking through the jungle and a leopard sees you, he will follow you
if he thinks he can win he will pounce on you and try to sever your spine with his teeth

or bite down on your throat and strangle you to death

if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"

its not an abstract premeditated plan for the destruction of all humans everywhere

its an impromptu plan of attack targeting one particular human at a time, and not because we are human and they dislike humans (actually i assume that we are pretty tasty and im sure they like us fine) its simply because we are there and it is their nature as predators - hunters - to hunt

tornadoes and earthquakes dont recognize us as people but their effects cost us our homes and our lives

it may simply be that we are frail, but the outcome is our destruction whatever the intent might be on their part

at the end of your post, you say:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

i dont know all of the associations you are thinking of when you say "vs trying to control it" but my response is that i DO recognize that the bear is a bear and the alligator is an alligator

and to a bear or gator, particularly to a hungry bear, or hungry alligator, you and i are both food

so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

you can choose your own vision of what we are

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMYrIi_Mt8A

what is the vision that you want to have?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYz9hmwJfLY

I'm often floored at the answers I find in nature. Nature says if we have the knowledge to spot harm then we can remove ourself at any time.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
........if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"...................


.......so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

I would still say that does not count as hostile intent. Just an intent to feed itself and possibly others in its pack or pride etc. Doing what nature has designed it to do to survive is not ill intent. Its just a natural cycle that has been going on since time began. When we go out to a field of cattle or a chicken coop and butcher animals for food is that ill intent? I don't think it is. To look at things from the cows perspective it might seem that way but it really is not. It is just intent to survive and the cow happens to be on the preys end of that system. It is their place in the cycle of life just as the plant is there for the cow to consume. The cow has no ill intent to the plant.

It is what we have done to those cows and chickens and even the plants we eat by filling them with hormones and steroids and chemicals and genetic modifications and keeping them in tiny coops or standing in small stalls all of their lives that have allowed us to not only thrive as a species but grow exponentially greater populations than we could have ever achieved with out those things. But these are the things that put us out of balance with nature, out of harmony.

Man thinks these attempts to control, or subdue or dominate nature give us an edge over it. But what it has really done is turn mankind into a cancer on this planet. We have spread to every corner and are consuming all resources with an unmatched greed with no regard for other species or the welfare of the planet. And like any cancer, if the body (nature) does not decide its no longer beneficial and destroys the infestation itself, we (the cancer) will eventually destroy ourselves through our own artificial manipulations and all consuming practices. We may not see it in our lifetimes but if we do not stop the way we live as a species we will destroy ourselves eventually.

...an old man told me one time and I quote " Great but now what?" it was his heavy creole accent and coffee vreath I miss often. The solution is as easy as the problem and as easy... we didn't heap the mess we are in, we built it and like any other problem if we begin to un ravel what we have done then we can adjust. The power for this change needed is from the individual. Individually we chose to create each bit of trash, it was made one by one, and so to our salvation can be, the power of the one by one. If I begin the clean up, I act, I work to rid...my life... adjust just me and how I buy and trash the difference IS made. I am the difference in the big cycle of trash. So by my actions I changed the outcome. Significantly? Hardly but, one by one is how it spreads. I don't, try not to throw away paper, cardboard, things that I can burn in my pit. I realized the amount of waist I create when I spend 50$ at Walmart. I want to say it's two to three walmart bags full of burn able paper products I would have normally have tossed. It's our actions that matter.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
........if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"...................


.......so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

I would still say that does not count as hostile intent. Just an intent to feed itself and possibly others in its pack or pride etc. Doing what nature has designed it to do to survive is not ill intent. Its just a natural cycle that has been going on since time began. When we go out to a field of cattle or a chicken coop and butcher animals for food is that ill intent? I don't think it is. To look at things from the cows perspective it might seem that way but it really is not. It is just intent to survive and the cow happens to be on the preys end of that system. It is their place in the cycle of life just as the plant is there for the cow to consume. The cow has no ill intent to the plant.

It is what we have done to those cows and chickens and even the plants we eat by filling them with hormones and steroids and chemicals and genetic modifications and keeping them in tiny coops or standing in small stalls all of their lives that have allowed us to not only thrive as a species but grow exponentially greater populations than we could have ever achieved with out those things. But these are the things that put us out of balance with nature, out of harmony.

Man thinks these attempts to control, or subdue or dominate nature give us an edge over it. But what it has really done is turn mankind into a cancer on this planet. We have spread to every corner and are consuming all resources with an unmatched greed with no regard for other species or the welfare of the planet. And like any cancer, if the body (nature) does not decide its no longer beneficial and destroys the infestation itself, we (the cancer) will eventually destroy ourselves through our own artificial manipulations and all consuming practices. We may not see it in our lifetimes but if we do not stop the way we live as a species we will destroy ourselves eventually.

if you are a cancer then dont you feel a moral obligation to kill yourself?
or are you special? are you the one human being in the whole species who isnt cancer?
if you dont kill yourself, arent you obligated to finding a way to kill the rest of us?
because thats how you deal with cancer

do you think cancer ever complains about the fact that it is cancer?

do you think cancer sees anythig wrong with being cancer - ever says "holy shit we're cancer man someone needs to get rid of us FAST!"
lol
im guessing NO

this idea that we are cancer is not wise and its only shallowly clever
its not even your idea - someone fed you that idea and you liked it because it feels righteous and gives you a chance to point your finger

but it doesnt add up

someone fed me that idea a long time ago and i ate it up too

i thought it was so clever lol
when agent smith said "ive deccided that human beings are really a VIRUS" i had a gasm like "ohthatssoDEEEP!!"
but its not deep
now i understand it was a phase, a way of thinking that let me look down on everybody like "human beings pfft, glad im not one of THOSE"
and im happy that grew out of it, because i dont want to see my family and friends as a disease

science says that we are primates

you should web search "chimp aggression" and see how they treat each other

then ask yourself what trouble they might be causing if they had the technology to launch shuttles into space

maybe give human beings half as much credit as you seem to be giving to "nature"

WE ARE NATURE lol

consider this: how old are human beings?
how old is industry?
how long have we been walking upright and compare that to how long we have been using electricity

its like the blink of an eye. of course we're still making mistakes!

that doesnt make us cancer

how do you even know about these mistakes?
because people told you
why did they tell you?
because they care!
people do care!
a lot of people care!
its perfectly normal for people to care
all over the world there are people who care
more with every generation
youre not the only one!
theres tons of us!

snubbing your nose at the whole human race does not make you a rebel or a visionary and being cynical is NOT the same thing AT ALL as being wise

thank you for reading
i know its a lot
im gonna finish with a quote i like from Stephen Colbert

"Remember, you cannot be both young and wise. Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us. Cynics always say no. But saying “yes” begins things. Saying “yes” is how things grow. Saying “yes” leads to knowledge. “Yes” is for young people. So for as long as you have the strength to, say “yes'."

I'd say us humans are probably more culture then nature... if we were nature we'd probably be still in the dark ages. The thing is culture is part of nature I guess, so maybe its like the head of the beast!! We just happen to have a highly capable head which gives our less capable bodies a disproportionate advantage over pretty much anything else we know - unless you go swimming with sharks or wrestling lions or body surfing a lava flow.

Given this apparent advantage, which basically equates to an unfair advantage in the majority of circumstances, we probably need to measure that advantage to develop an awareness of its abuse/overuse, use or even neglecting use. Not that nature fights fair.... so I like the Jedi Code for that personally.

How do we assess and measure our place on Earth seems to be the basic question, as human impact compared on other individual life and systems. I guess we assess it on impact to us as individuals and societies firstly (selfish yes, but required and most easily understood), and then we probably should extend that assessment outwards to various extents. We can measure somethings vulnerability as an indicator, its suffering or projected suffering, or even define what is really necessary disturbance to its environment maybe.

It's why I tend to view humans as guardians of life, to protect the Earth. But given population growth I always end up at the conclusion that we are destined to move offworld... as freaky as that sounds. It though raises the question about how to define what is an available resource and what is not once in space! I guess we could use the concept of the Living Force, being perhaps lifeforms primarily and secondary the resources needed to support present or likely future lifeforms. This then makes me think we could probably classify a large proportion of matter in space as 'dead', being devoid of life, any interaction with existing life or future life - and its that which could support colonization of space. We'd have to stick to it else we'd shift from guardians of life to consumers of all things.

I think that is the line we have to walk then, but also now. Being mindful, compassionate and not bound to the contemporary worldview which we are so easily born into through consumerism in media. It's just more delicate now because until we have the capability to be offworld, we are faced with limited resources to be able to get off world in sufficient time to avoid destroying our own home... and ourselves.

So unless we can think our way out of it with invention, humanity is doomed to destroy itself if not also most all life on Earth. Pending aliens popping up and gifting us tech!!! AFAIK it's what happens in biology when a species has no competition, sufficient resources to grow a lot, but a limited space to grow in. It grows exponentially until it suddenly all dies off, for various reasons - and humans would have the most numbers of reasons to try and avoid. I mean, its easy for bacteria, its just going to be exhausting resources and filling up space with pollution creating conditions which it can no longer live in, but just before that point the bacteria is having a great time, as far as bacteria happiness goes.. us humans have to worry about that but also blowing each other up over craving for power under the guise of political or religious ideologies among other things.

I don't mean to be too dark, and it's not in our lifetimes probably, but humanity needs to keep growing and improving with more then 'self' in mind, and cannot get lazy and take sufficient security, adequate comfort and diversity of entertainment as the important measures of existence IMO.