Man ...

ow , thats why i am always hungry , its not just me , its the stupid design :laugh:

OB1Shinobi wrote: what about volcanoes and tornadoes?

they are powerful to the point that we cannot withstand them
and if we do not recognize them as dangerous to us, there will be fatal consequences when we encounter them
but are the words "friendly" and "hostile" appropriate to understanding them?
is a tornado being playful when it destroys a home? is it angry?

what if you found out that the universe is essentially hostile?
would that change your commitment to being friendly yourself?

would you choose to become hostile?

or would you still choose "to become the change you wish to see in the world"?

maybe the universe is just powerful - maybe it is extremely powerful, and utterly impersonal

and its up to you (us) to decide how you (we) want to navigate that

The point i was trying to make earlier is that the universe is neither friendky or hostile. It is just the universe. Just like a lion or a tornado is not friendly or hostile. They just do what they do because that is what they are designed to do. There is no ill intent nor is there beneficial intent. None of those things are "bent on our destruction" nor do they wish us ill will and they dont have a mission to attack us that we need to defend from. They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The point i was trying to make earlier is that the universe is neither friendky or hostile. It is just the universe. Just like a lion or a tornado is not friendly or hostile. They just do what they do because that is what they are designed to do. There is no ill intent nor is there beneficial intent. None of those things are "bent on our destruction" nor do they wish us ill will and they dont have a mission to attack us that we need to defend from. They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

i appreciate your point

i think we have different associations with the words and phrases such as "hostile" and "universe" and "ill and beneficial intent" and "mission to attack us that we need to defend from"

a boa constrictor is not socially hostile - it wont spread rumors about me or make nasty comments on my facebook page

lions dont have war councils and strategy meetings where orchestrate complicated attacks on national infrastructure

but if i am small enough to fit in an boas mouth, or if a group of lions find me unarmed or unawares out on the plains, they will all eat me

if youre walking through the jungle and a leopard sees you, he will follow you
if he thinks he can win he will pounce on you and try to sever your spine with his teeth

or bite down on your throat and strangle you to death

if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"

its not an abstract premeditated plan for the destruction of all humans everywhere

its an impromptu plan of attack targeting one particular human at a time, and not because we are human and they dislike humans (actually i assume that we are pretty tasty and im sure they like us fine) its simply because we are there and it is their nature as predators - hunters - to hunt

tornadoes and earthquakes dont recognize us as people but their effects cost us our homes and our lives

it may simply be that we are frail, but the outcome is our destruction whatever the intent might be on their part

at the end of your post, you say:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: They just are what they are and we are what we are. If we can recognize that and do our best to live in harmony with that, i think we would be better off as a species vs trying to control it.

i dont know all of the associations you are thinking of when you say "vs trying to control it" but my response is that i DO recognize that the bear is a bear and the alligator is an alligator

and to a bear or gator, particularly to a hungry bear, or hungry alligator, you and i are both food

so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

you can choose your own vision of what we are

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=KMYrIi_Mt8A

what is the vision that you want to have?

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RYz9hmwJfLY

I'm often floored at the answers I find in nature. Nature says if we have the knowledge to spot harm then we can remove ourself at any time.

OB1Shinobi wrote:
........if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"...................


.......so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

I would still say that does not count as hostile intent. Just an intent to feed itself and possibly others in its pack or pride etc. Doing what nature has designed it to do to survive is not ill intent. Its just a natural cycle that has been going on since time began. When we go out to a field of cattle or a chicken coop and butcher animals for food is that ill intent? I don't think it is. To look at things from the cows perspective it might seem that way but it really is not. It is just intent to survive and the cow happens to be on the preys end of that system. It is their place in the cycle of life just as the plant is there for the cow to consume. The cow has no ill intent to the plant.

It is what we have done to those cows and chickens and even the plants we eat by filling them with hormones and steroids and chemicals and genetic modifications and keeping them in tiny coops or standing in small stalls all of their lives that have allowed us to not only thrive as a species but grow exponentially greater populations than we could have ever achieved with out those things. But these are the things that put us out of balance with nature, out of harmony.

Man thinks these attempts to control, or subdue or dominate nature give us an edge over it. But what it has really done is turn mankind into a cancer on this planet. We have spread to every corner and are consuming all resources with an unmatched greed with no regard for other species or the welfare of the planet. And like any cancer, if the body (nature) does not decide its no longer beneficial and destroys the infestation itself, we (the cancer) will eventually destroy ourselves through our own artificial manipulations and all consuming practices. We may not see it in our lifetimes but if we do not stop the way we live as a species we will destroy ourselves eventually.

...an old man told me one time and I quote " Great but now what?" it was his heavy creole accent and coffee vreath I miss often. The solution is as easy as the problem and as easy... we didn't heap the mess we are in, we built it and like any other problem if we begin to un ravel what we have done then we can adjust. The power for this change needed is from the individual. Individually we chose to create each bit of trash, it was made one by one, and so to our salvation can be, the power of the one by one. If I begin the clean up, I act, I work to rid...my life... adjust just me and how I buy and trash the difference IS made. I am the difference in the big cycle of trash. So by my actions I changed the outcome. Significantly? Hardly but, one by one is how it spreads. I don't, try not to throw away paper, cardboard, things that I can burn in my pit. I realized the amount of waist I create when I spend 50$ at Walmart. I want to say it's two to three walmart bags full of burn able paper products I would have normally have tossed. It's our actions that matter.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote:
........if he severs your spine he will eat you while you are still alive

does that count as hostile or ill intent?

is that a deliberate plan or mission to attack us?

i would say "yes"...................


.......so what does it mean to live in harmony with that?

what does it mean to "live in harmony" with natural forces that will destroy us when we encounter them?

I would still say that does not count as hostile intent. Just an intent to feed itself and possibly others in its pack or pride etc. Doing what nature has designed it to do to survive is not ill intent. Its just a natural cycle that has been going on since time began. When we go out to a field of cattle or a chicken coop and butcher animals for food is that ill intent? I don't think it is. To look at things from the cows perspective it might seem that way but it really is not. It is just intent to survive and the cow happens to be on the preys end of that system. It is their place in the cycle of life just as the plant is there for the cow to consume. The cow has no ill intent to the plant.

It is what we have done to those cows and chickens and even the plants we eat by filling them with hormones and steroids and chemicals and genetic modifications and keeping them in tiny coops or standing in small stalls all of their lives that have allowed us to not only thrive as a species but grow exponentially greater populations than we could have ever achieved with out those things. But these are the things that put us out of balance with nature, out of harmony.

Man thinks these attempts to control, or subdue or dominate nature give us an edge over it. But what it has really done is turn mankind into a cancer on this planet. We have spread to every corner and are consuming all resources with an unmatched greed with no regard for other species or the welfare of the planet. And like any cancer, if the body (nature) does not decide its no longer beneficial and destroys the infestation itself, we (the cancer) will eventually destroy ourselves through our own artificial manipulations and all consuming practices. We may not see it in our lifetimes but if we do not stop the way we live as a species we will destroy ourselves eventually.

if you are a cancer then dont you feel a moral obligation to kill yourself?
or are you special? are you the one human being in the whole species who isnt cancer?
if you dont kill yourself, arent you obligated to finding a way to kill the rest of us?
because thats how you deal with cancer

do you think cancer ever complains about the fact that it is cancer?

do you think cancer sees anythig wrong with being cancer - ever says "holy shit we're cancer man someone needs to get rid of us FAST!"
lol
im guessing NO

this idea that we are cancer is not wise and its only shallowly clever
its not even your idea - someone fed you that idea and you liked it because it feels righteous and gives you a chance to point your finger

but it doesnt add up

someone fed me that idea a long time ago and i ate it up too

i thought it was so clever lol
when agent smith said "ive deccided that human beings are really a VIRUS" i had a gasm like "ohthatssoDEEEP!!"
but its not deep
now i understand it was a phase, a way of thinking that let me look down on everybody like "human beings pfft, glad im not one of THOSE"
and im happy that grew out of it, because i dont want to see my family and friends as a disease

science says that we are primates

you should web search "chimp aggression" and see how they treat each other

then ask yourself what trouble they might be causing if they had the technology to launch shuttles into space

maybe give human beings half as much credit as you seem to be giving to "nature"

WE ARE NATURE lol

consider this: how old are human beings?
how old is industry?
how long have we been walking upright and compare that to how long we have been using electricity

its like the blink of an eye. of course we're still making mistakes!

that doesnt make us cancer

how do you even know about these mistakes?
because people told you
why did they tell you?
because they care!
people do care!
a lot of people care!
its perfectly normal for people to care
all over the world there are people who care
more with every generation
youre not the only one!
theres tons of us!

snubbing your nose at the whole human race does not make you a rebel or a visionary and being cynical is NOT the same thing AT ALL as being wise

thank you for reading
i know its a lot
im gonna finish with a quote i like from Stephen Colbert

"Remember, you cannot be both young and wise. Young people who pretend to be wise to the ways of the world are mostly just cynics. Cynicism masquerades as wisdom, but it is the farthest thing from it. Because cynics don’t learn anything. Because cynicism is a self-imposed blindness, a rejection of the world because we are afraid it will hurt us or disappoint us. Cynics always say no. But saying “yes” begins things. Saying “yes” is how things grow. Saying “yes” leads to knowledge. “Yes” is for young people. So for as long as you have the strength to, say “yes'."

I'd say us humans are probably more culture then nature... if we were nature we'd probably be still in the dark ages. The thing is culture is part of nature I guess, so maybe its like the head of the beast!! We just happen to have a highly capable head which gives our less capable bodies a disproportionate advantage over pretty much anything else we know - unless you go swimming with sharks or wrestling lions or body surfing a lava flow.

Given this apparent advantage, which basically equates to an unfair advantage in the majority of circumstances, we probably need to measure that advantage to develop an awareness of its abuse/overuse, use or even neglecting use. Not that nature fights fair.... so I like the Jedi Code for that personally.

How do we assess and measure our place on Earth seems to be the basic question, as human impact compared on other individual life and systems. I guess we assess it on impact to us as individuals and societies firstly (selfish yes, but required and most easily understood), and then we probably should extend that assessment outwards to various extents. We can measure somethings vulnerability as an indicator, its suffering or projected suffering, or even define what is really necessary disturbance to its environment maybe.

It's why I tend to view humans as guardians of life, to protect the Earth. But given population growth I always end up at the conclusion that we are destined to move offworld... as freaky as that sounds. It though raises the question about how to define what is an available resource and what is not once in space! I guess we could use the concept of the Living Force, being perhaps lifeforms primarily and secondary the resources needed to support present or likely future lifeforms. This then makes me think we could probably classify a large proportion of matter in space as 'dead', being devoid of life, any interaction with existing life or future life - and its that which could support colonization of space. We'd have to stick to it else we'd shift from guardians of life to consumers of all things.

I think that is the line we have to walk then, but also now. Being mindful, compassionate and not bound to the contemporary worldview which we are so easily born into through consumerism in media. It's just more delicate now because until we have the capability to be offworld, we are faced with limited resources to be able to get off world in sufficient time to avoid destroying our own home... and ourselves.

So unless we can think our way out of it with invention, humanity is doomed to destroy itself if not also most all life on Earth. Pending aliens popping up and gifting us tech!!! AFAIK it's what happens in biology when a species has no competition, sufficient resources to grow a lot, but a limited space to grow in. It grows exponentially until it suddenly all dies off, for various reasons - and humans would have the most numbers of reasons to try and avoid. I mean, its easy for bacteria, its just going to be exhausting resources and filling up space with pollution creating conditions which it can no longer live in, but just before that point the bacteria is having a great time, as far as bacteria happiness goes.. us humans have to worry about that but also blowing each other up over craving for power under the guise of political or religious ideologies among other things.

I don't mean to be too dark, and it's not in our lifetimes probably, but humanity needs to keep growing and improving with more then 'self' in mind, and cannot get lazy and take sufficient security, adequate comfort and diversity of entertainment as the important measures of existence IMO.

OB1Shinobi wrote: if you are a cancer then dont you feel a moral obligation to kill yourself?
or are you special? are you the one human being in the whole species who isnt cancer?
if you dont kill yourself, arent you obligated to finding a way to kill the rest of us?
because thats how you deal with cancer

do you think cancer ever complains about the fact that it is cancer?

do you think cancer sees anythig wrong with being cancer - ever says "holy shit we're cancer man someone needs to get rid of us FAST!"
lol
im guessing NO

this idea that we are cancer is not wise and its only shallowly clever
its not even your idea - someone fed you that idea and you liked it because it feels righteous and gives you a chance to point your finger"

LOL whoa man, that's a little harsh don't you think? Are there really any original ideas... really? Don't be so self righteous like you have all the original ideas and you are so much more enlightened than everyone else, dude.

In any case, no I don't think cancer thinks it needs to kill itself or it is bad. And I also did not say that it necessarily needed to be destroyed. (In fact I gave no opinion on that) Its natural behavior is to eventually destroy itself by destroying the host it has latched onto. Is cancer bad for doing what it was designed to do? Does cancer think it is evil? Probably not. In fact from its point of view it might consider itself some sort of self sacrificing entity that is providing the benefit of culling the weak from the herd, so to speak.

But you are right, I was probably a bit harsh in my description of mans recent behavior. I should have said humanity is behaving in a similar manner to what a cancer would, not that we ARE a cancer. And just as Carlos says, we have the ability to move away from that behavior and change our ways. If we do not we, like cancer, will eventually destroy ourselves.

Because we have the self aware ability to recognize our own shortcomings and correct them I do give mankind a great deal of credit. I'm sorry if I did not convey that accurately earlier. I think we are just as amazing as a species as we are flawed. I even delight in that fact. We have done awesome things. and we do an amazing amount of good. I don't think we are a disease as your former idol Mr Smith convinced you of. You see the difference between you and I is that (by your own confession above) you buy into concepts wholly and completely until something better comes along and convinces you otherwise. I do not do this. I am a critical thinker and try to evaluate everything with an objective mindset. Just because humans may exhibit some similar behaviors as a cancer today does not mean we get to jump to the conclusion that we are evil and a no good virus that is irredeemable and needs to be eradicated. I never said that and I would appreciate it if you did not put words into my mouth.

I'm glad that you are passionate about subjects like these. I understand that you as well as a lot of other people care. I care as well. If I didn't care I would not be in this thread discussing these things with you. I think we have the capacity for amazing accomplishments but we also have the capacity for nearly unbounded destruction. That is inherent in our nature and we should never be led to believe we must suppress or eliminate one side of that nature in favor of the other. Instead both sides should be something to be celebrated not condemned. We are perfect in our imperfection. However we must learn to balance both sides of our nature so that in as many cases as possible the greater good emerges. We have unlocked awesome power in the last 100 years. It would be a shame to use that power to destroy ourselves just because we could not find the restraint to use that power beneficially and sparingly. That's all I'm really trying to say.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: if you are a cancer then dont you feel a moral obligation to kill yourself?
or are you special? are you the one human being in the whole species who isnt cancer?
if you dont kill yourself, arent you obligated to finding a way to kill the rest of us?
because thats how you deal with cancer

do you think cancer ever complains about the fact that it is cancer?

do you think cancer sees anything wrong with being cancer - ever says "holy shit we're cancer man someone needs to get rid of us FAST!"
lol
im guessing NO

this idea that we are cancer is not wise and its only shallowly clever
its not even your idea - someone fed you that idea and you liked it because it feels righteous and gives you a chance to point your finger"

LOL whoa man, that's a little harsh don't you think?

LOL, NO, im not being harsh

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Are there really any original ideas... really?

maybe there are and maybe there are not, but certainly there is a big difference between accepting every trite little cliche that happens to be trendy at the moment, with really looking into a topic and fitting together as much of the full scope of relevant information as one is able

up to this point in the conversation, i believe you have been doing the first, and I am asking you to do the latter

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Don't be so self righteous like you have all the original ideas and you are so much more enlightened than everyone else, dude.

did you just say "I KNOW YOU ARE BUT WHAT AM I?" ??? lol thats awesome

well then I AM RUBBER AND YOU ARE GLUE AND WHAT YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF OF ME AND STICKS RIGHT BACK TO YOU!!

and i will raise you a "NEENER NEENER NEENER!"

and i know i am not more enlightened than EVERYONE else...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: But you are right,

DUUUH!

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I was probably a bit harsh in my description of mans recent behavior. I should have said humanity is behaving in a similar manner to what a cancer would, not that we ARE a cancer.

then you would still be wrong, and you are still not really thinking about what your'e saying

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: And just as Carlos says, we have the ability to move away from that behavior and change our ways. If we do not we, like cancer, will eventually destroy ourselves.

what exactly, specifically, are YOU doing that is causing your or anyone elses destruction?

what am I doing that is causing my own or anyone else's destruction?

is it you and I who need to change our behavior? are we the harbingers of doom for the whole species?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Because we have the self aware ability to recognize our own shortcomings and correct them I do give mankind a great deal of credit. I'm sorry if I did not convey that accurately earlier. I think we are just as amazing as a species as we are flawed. I even delight in that fact. We have done awesome things. and we do an amazing amount of good. I don't think we are a disease...

finally lol
thank you
i dunno but earlier, when you said that we are a cancer, i kinda got the impression that maybe you did actually think that we are a disease

i mean, you called us a disease lol

but now that you have explained that you were saying something earlier that you dont really believe, we can move this conversation forward, if you want to

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: ... as your former idol Mr Smith convinced you of. You see the difference between you and I ...

is this really THE difference between us? are you sure?

i think youre about to say something else that will collapse if we really look at it lol

i understand that it felt good to say it, just like the other cliches youve been spouting up to this point, but it looks to me like youre not really thinking about what youre saying

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: is that (by your own confession above) you buy into concepts wholly and completely until something better comes along and convinces you otherwise.

putting aside whether or not i actually do this (in the way that i think youre implying) let me ask you something: did you know that evolution is "just" a theory?

now, i am totally and completely convinced that life on earth evolves, and has been evolving for as long as there has been life on earth

but you know what, if some new information comes along that explains the diversity of life in some new and more convincing way, i will drop evolution hot rotten extinct potatoes

we call that "learning" lol

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I do not do this.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: ...what it has really done is turn mankind into a cancer on this planet.... And like any cancer, if the body (nature) does not decide its no longer beneficial and destroys the infestation itself, we (the cancer) will eventually...

OB1Shinobi wrote: ....something better...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: ...you are right... I should have said...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I am a critical thinker and try to evaluate everything with an objective mindset.

ok good

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I think we have the capacity for amazing accomplishments but we also have the capacity for nearly unbounded destruction. That is inherent in our nature and we should never be led to believe we must suppress or eliminate one side of that nature in favor of the other. Instead both sides should be something to be celebrated not condemned.

now at least you are speaking in a way which acknowledges that "we" are not just one single thing

i wonder if you do actually believe that the part of ourselves which likes to rape and pillage and torture and commit genocide really is something that should be celebrated

or am i detecting another cliche?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: We are perfect in our imperfection.

is this objective analysis or poetry?

i like both btw

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: However we must learn to balance both sides of our nature so that in as many cases as possible the greater good emerges. We have unlocked awesome power in the last 100 years. It would be a shame to use that power to destroy ourselves just because we could not find the restraint to use that power beneficially and sparingly. That's all I'm really trying to say.

i am glad that you saved the best for last - this was a really smart and fair sentiment, and i absolutely agree with you

honestly this was really good

in this last quote you do an excellent job of walking the line between various bits of information in a way that, "original idea" or not, comes across as insightful but also genuinely personal and socially constructive

i know i gave you a bit of a hard time, its not JUST because i want to be a jerk

Was that a men . My own race ! seeing that video made me thing on a other factor the vegetarian's . What they should have done with the earth . An anyway , I think many human was vegetarian since human exist . But the carnivore is sure here and it is a way of life and probably man went to far .

A carnivore now a day have more information about choosing the relationship with his planet . In this video it shows how a man became a monster of inventing and doing his bliss . But it took aliens to rather stop the guy or taking over the planet . :blink: this video is very difficult to see and to explain it , because it ressemble the earth .

PatrickB wrote: Was that a men . My own race ! seeing that video made me thing on a other factor the vegetarian's . What they should have done with the earth . An anyway , I think many human was vegetarian since human exist . But the carnivore is sure here and it is a way of life and probably man went to far .

A carnivore now a day have more information about choosing the relationship with his planet . In this video it shows how a man became a monster of inventing and doing his bliss . But it took aliens to rather stop the guy or taking over the planet . :blink: this video is very difficult to see and to explain it , because it ressemble the earth .

I agree , this video does not show our good sides just an idea of how bad is looks now , but there are good sides Patrick lets not forget the good we can and will do and not give up on this planet yes , as for vegetarians , its a choice to eat meat but for some even the only thing there is to eat , and animals eat animals , so i dont feel guilty for eating animals but i do feel awfull about the bio industry , its appaling how we treat our food ...

Oh man, Obi.. your gonna make me break out the quote machine arent ya. ok fine, lets do this thang.

Actually I just have a few comments about your last post and let me just say up front that I have really enjoyed throwing the ball back and forth with you in this thread. You are insightful and humorous and have never taken anything personally. I really appreciate that we can have a conversation like this and keep things on that level. (Unlike others we encounter if ya know what I mean.. nudge nudge.. :laugh: ) (JOKING!)

Kyran wrote: Are there really any original ideas... really?

Obi wrote: maybe there are and maybe there are not, but certainly there is a big difference between accepting every trite little cliche that happens to be trendy at the moment, with really looking into a topic and fitting together as much of the full scope of relevant information as one is able

up to this point in the conversation, i believe you have been doing the first, and I am asking you to do the latter

No I really haven't. I know it may seem that way and that may be due to the fact that ideas are hard to get across on a post board sometimes. I understand all the nuances of society and complex interactions and capabilities of our species towards both sides of the spectrum. I was just trying to illuminate one particular behavior that I feel we as a species manifest. I used metaphor and simile in that description and you took it a bit to literally. I think mankind exhibits (has exhibited) some self destructive behaviors in the way we approach this planets resources and other life.

That is not to say we are not constantly trying to correct those things and be better. On the contrary I think we are. I saw a documentary the other day that described the decline of the cheetah species due to over hunting them for their coats. However those very same hunters came to realize that they were destroying a species population and have now turned around started an organization to preserve and rebuild the very population they used to hunt. That's pretty amazing I think.

That's just one example but I think we need so many more like that, so the question remains - will we be able to pull our heads fully out before we "blow ourselves up/irrevocably modify our environment to the point it no longer sustains us"? I think that remains to be seen.

Obi wrote: well then I AM RUBBER AND YOU ARE GLUE AND WHAT YOU SAY BOUNCES OFF OF ME AND STICKS RIGHT BACK TO YOU!!
and i will raise you a "NEENER NEENER NEENER!"
and i know i am not more enlightened than EVERYONE else...

LOL this made me laugh. So we agree that neither of us is more enlightened than the other. Sorry if I came off that way, I was just trying to put on my best dramatic speech :laugh: - intended tone on a post board is.. meh... :dry:

Kyrin wrote: And just as Carlos says, we have the ability to move away from that behavior and change our ways. If we do not we, like cancer, will eventually destroy ourselves.

Obi wrote: what exactly, specifically, are YOU doing that is causing your or anyone elses destruction?
what am I doing that is causing my own or anyone else's destruction?
is it you and I who need to change our behavior? are we the harbingers of doom for the whole species?

Me Specifically?
I sometimes don't recycle like I should, I drive a car on hot days instead of taking public transport or riding a bike, I use the electricity generated by the coal plants, I don't get involved in the fight for animal rights, I buy GMO and non organic products because they are more convenient, I spray pesticides and chemicals on my lawn that kills all the spring plants bees depend on for life, I'm complacent in the cutting down of the rain forests because its easier to ignore it than get involved. I don't vote or get involved in politics in any way because I don't want to take the time to understand the issues our nation or this planet faces today, Its easier to let someone else worry about it.

The list goes on and on. And I'm not saying that I or anyone else am guilty of all or even most of these things but we are all guilty of some of them. I'm also not saying that as a species we don't work to change these things or that many of them are not some of the most complex issues we face. But what I am saying is the beginnings of change for any of these things starts with the individual.

Kyrin wrote: is that (by your own confession above) you buy into concepts wholly and completely until something better comes along and convinces you otherwise.

putting aside whether or not i actually do this (in the way that i think youre implying) let me ask you something: did you know that evolution is "just" a theory?
now, i am totally and completely convinced that life on earth evolves, and has been evolving for as long as there has been life on earth
but you know what, if some new information comes along that explains the diversity of life in some new and more convincing way, i will drop evolution hot rotten extinct potatoes

we call that "learning" lol

Please tell me you did not just say "Evolution is just a Theory"??!! Your not serious right? Evolution is "just a theory" in the same way that Gravity is "Just a theory". Do you think they might disprove gravity someday as well?

In laymans terms a theory is a hunch or a guess about something. This is not the case in scientific terms. A hunch or a guess is called a hypothesis in the scientific community (not a theory). People who don't understand this distinction sometimes dismiss scientific ideas saying "it's just a theory". In fact this is a common ploy of misdirection among Creationists who very commonly assert that evolution is just speculation when, in actuality, from a scientific point of view, evolution is a robust proven explanation for how life came to be that is based on proven reproducible fact.

When scientists speak of the theory of gravity or the theory of evolution, they don't mean that these are random untested ideas that someone came up with after too many beers. In scientific terms a theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world.

To think that someday the Theory will be dis-proven is not the process of "learning", its superstition.

Obi wrote: i wonder if you do actually believe that the part of ourselves which likes to rape and pillage and torture and commit genocide really is something that should be celebrated

Actually Yes I do, but not in the way you would black and white "straw-man" it into this conversation. Our aggressive emotions are just as much a part of us as our passive ones and they serve us just as well. It is in the balance of both sides of our nature that we find true peace and joy, not the eradication of one side in favor of the other or in allowing one side to run amuck and dominate.

'Kyrin" wrote: We are perfect in our imperfection.

Obi wrote: is this objective analysis or poetry?

Poetry, Duhh!
Its a poetic description of the ideas I just described above about the balance of our duality - just my opinion BTW and my personal way of succinctly describing it.

Obi wrote: i know i gave you a bit of a hard time, its not JUST because i want to be a jerk

I get that and like I said at the start of this I appreciate it. These sorts of discussions serve one of two purposes, at least for me. They serve to either reinforce beliefs and opinions I have by forcing me to defend them or in the face of an arguments complete collapse they serve as a vehicle to evolve or change those beliefs and opinions. By having to describe things in great detail we get to ferret out holes and inconsistencies in our beliefs as well as really shine a light on what we "think" we believe to see if it is real or just so much fluff.

Thanks man.