Suicide

rugadd wrote: Correct. Fear of death is illogical. It is our own hangups that make it an undesirable thing. On the other side of the coin, it is our hangups that can make it desirable.

That is a good point, it wasn't something I had considered, but I agree.

What is the difference between suicide and self-sacrifice ?

The character in Armageddon did not commit suicide ...

What about soldiers in the trenches who saved all of their comrades by throwing themselves onto a grenade that landed among them ? It was more 'self-sacrifice' than suicide (especially as had they not it would have gone off and quite likely taken them all out).

Anyway -- I'm no expert in this. I'm just throwing that question out there ...

You make a good point. After some searching into the difference and it seems to be the case that: all self-sacrifice is suicide, but not all suicide is self-sacrifice. Wikipedia list self-sacrifice as "benevolent suicide".

Whatever the case may be what this does is show that there are many different types of suicide, just as there are many different conditions that arise that compel someone to commit suicide: medical, mental, emotional, political etc

Example: A suicide bomber kills themselves, but does so with the interest of "helping" their cause so would also be a kind of self-sacrifice. Suicide is even in the name lol.

I don't see much of a difference. someone who kills themselves could be doing the world a favor or not. Young hippie adolf hitler could be a "hero" by killing himself, just like that astronaut in Armageddon.

I think the only difference between suicide and self sacrifice is viewpoint.

rugadd wrote: Correct. Fear of death is illogical.

Not from a biological standpoint; survival is a primal instinct.
Not from a philosophical standpoint; it is a fear of the unknown, for there is nothing we can learn about death that can be asked of the living.

Fear of death is highly logical. We don't know enough about the consequences of death to make an appropriate decision, and life is the "default" so long as we are breathing. It takes less effort to continue a process in motion than it does to end it to begin another, uknown process.

ren wrote: I don't see much of a difference. someone who kills themselves could be doing the world a favor or not. Young hippie adolf hitler could be a "hero" by killing himself, just like that astronaut in Armageddon.

Except he's the cause of his own ill reputation (to a very high degree), so I don't necessarily think that makes the best point.

Instinct does not equal logic. Logic can be used to explain an instinct but it is not the same thing.

Not from a biological standpoint; survival is a primal instinct.

Instinct isn't logical, it's, uh, instinctive.

Except he's the cause of his own ill reputation (to a very high degree), so I don't necessarily think that makes the best point.

I think it makes an excellent point. He became what he inevitably became. what turned hitler from a hippie into what he is remembered for is: trenches of WW1, aftermath of ww1 (german repayment) and the 1930's financial crisis (guess who owned the banking system back then). The staggering amount of people who agreed with his views is proof that anyone else anywhere else could've been him.
The point is, someone who put an end to their lives in order to prevent *something bad* from occurring is a *hero*. Whether you and I knew that this *something bad* was due to happen is irrelevant.
If hippie hitler had killed himself as he became consumed with anger, people would have seen him as a weakling, or even maybe a criminal back then. His family, like Wescli, may have complained about having to clean up all the brain bits off the wall. When someone dies, we don't know what it is they won't do because of death, the good as well as the bad stuff. We easily embellish what people could have been, and too easily forget that things can always get worse, even for people who've hit *rock bottom*.

rugadd wrote: Instinct does not equal logic. Logic can be used to explain an instinct but it is not the same thing.

ren wrote: Instinct isn't logical, it's, uh, instinctive.

As someone who believes that the universe tends to make sense more often than it does not, I prefer to think that there are logical reasons for instinct, which can then be explained logically.

ren wrote: The point is, someone who put an end to their lives in order to prevent *something bad* from occurring is a *hero*.

I think my problem with this as an example is that if we have no way of knowing Hitler will grow up and be, y'know, Hitler, then:

1. We can't know he prevented something horrible via suicide early in life, so he can't be lauded a hero.
2. HE can't know he prevented something horrible via suicide early in life, so he can't be lauded a hero.

From our perspective, given what finite amount we know about what the future holds, it still appears an unjustifiable suicide, and not some grand act of sacrifice for the good of the world. If we start thinking this way, then every action could potentially be called "heroic", and that's a load of bollocks.

(unintentional double post)