Suicide

It’s been brought up in other threads, suicide. Assisted suicide was talked about in one thread and then in another, dying for your country became a suicide conversation. :huh:

I honestly don't see how willingly putting yourself in the path of a moving truck is different from willingly putting yourself in the path of moving bullets.

I guess there are a few points to consider when contemplating this particular subject. Is your life yours and yours alone? Does your death only affect you? How did you gain the ability to see into the future and learn that there was no longer anything worth living for?

i thought of this. If my wife and child were to die, I would probably want to die also. And also, an opinion i've had most of my life now, there's no way I'm ending up in an old people's home (or similar "care" facility), so there are chances I'll have to kill myself then (provided I reach old age). I am not entitled to other people and other people aren't entitled to me.
I doubt I'd kill myself the way most seem to do it. I'd probably go a bit mental first, take care of some things that have been bugging me, though I doubt I'd ever throw myself in front of a train or truck/etc. As you suggested it's not a very nice thing to do to the other person involved. However...

seriously, think about the poor person that has to clean you up once your remains have been discovered. Seriously, I am not trying to be funny at all. I had to clean up the remains of someone I loved very dearly after their body had been in a house for a couple of weeks. I could go into details but it’s really not appropriate or needed.

I think you're wrong there. If that person had died of natural or accidental causes, you would have to do all that messy painful cleanup stuff... Do you think it'd be apropriate to ask "why did your heart/liver/RandomOrgan have to stop you selfish idiot, now look I have to do all this minging stuff because of you"? Their mind is just as much a part of them as any vital organ. This "poor person" (you) has the chance of having a mind and body healthy enough to keep on living. this "poor person" looks incredibly wealthy to me.

ren wrote: I think you're wrong there. If that person had died of natural or accidental causes, you would have to do all that messy painful cleanup stuff... Do you think it'd be apropriate to ask "why did your heart/liver/RandomOrgan have to stop you selfish idiot, now look I have to do all this minging stuff because of you"? Their mind is just as much a part of them as any vital organ. This "poor person" (you) has the chance of having a mind and body healthy enough to keep on living. this "poor person" looks incredibly wealthy to me.

When my grandfather died, it was natural causes. Passed away in his sleep. No big mess to clean up. It was sad, but it was his time to go.

When My Aunt died she blew herself in half with a high powered, large caliber rifle. The was blood, chunks of meat, bone, brain everywhere. The chair she was setting in, the pool that gathered under it and soaked through the chair, the pieces of hair, brain and skull that sprayed up the wall and across the ceiling.

I don’t know how many dead people you have seen or been around Ren, but death from natural causes tends to be… less messy. Trains, trucks, bridges, razors, guns, garage doors, these all get a bit messier. I have been to so many closed casket funerals because the body was so badly damaged they could have the coffin open that it is just… well, I’ve been to too many of them.

Yea, I can see why that's no joyful experience, and to be honest I didn't realize things were this graphic. I'm surprised members of the family/public are allowed to do this. Then again I come from a country where it's not possible to scatter someone's ashes at sea due to corpse disposal regulations.

We already have the right in the sense that any of us could take our own life regardless of the legality of it. If you mean, "Does anyone else have the right to stop you from committing suicide?", and to that I say yes, if they are compelled to do so and your suicidal attempts present them with the opportunity.

Everyone changes. This is just another way of choosing. I don't think it is my place to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do. I just know that I'm not looking to do it myself and my own philosophy is"Don't fear it, don't chase it."

Are the conditions of someone's excuse to commit suicide based on self-created sufferings? Does it have to do more with the person's inner world reacting to the outer world in a way that they totally reject the outer because of..... personal or egotistical reasons? If we were all walking egos would it matter if one ego decides to leave, or if we really are all connected doesn't it matter that everyone works together?

If someone has something happen to them that makes them feel like no longer living, is it their fault for having such an idea or is it the outer world's fault for not recognizing the issue and trying to help? I guess this concept should be judged on a case by case basis because you never really know someone's intentions or situations unless you actually talk to them and know them. Some folks will give in to this if the lose something or someone which I would say is not a good excuse. Some folks just don't enjoy their life which I would also say is not a good excuse. Someone making the decision before they experience the excruciating pain of dying of cancer of some disease, that I can understand. Whether or not we feel it is rational or justified, a lot of people who consider this end up convincing themselves of it and there is no way to really talk them out of it. It's a shame that a lot of these situations are based on ego created suffering from desire, fear, failure, loss, sadness, and if you appreciate the mystery of life and everything around you just as an experience you probably won't ever even consider suicide. Suicide to avoid pain is another tough one too, because they say the greatest pain comes from the avoidance of pain. I just figure that as long as you are alive and have your health you still have an opportunity to make a difference or turn things around, maybe even if you're stuck with life in prison.

I agree with Alex.

Lightstrider wrote: Are the conditions of someone's excuse to commit suicide based on self-created sufferings?...It's a shame that a lot of these situations are based on ego created suffering from desire, fear, failure, loss, sadness, and if you appreciate the mystery of life and everything around you just as an experience you probably won't ever even consider suicide.

Nothing personal, Lightstrider, but I have a lot of problems with this bit of text here.

Firstly, fear is the single most motivating stimulus to humans, even outranking pain and sex, so brushing it off like it doesn't matter is tantamount to saying you've never experienced true, actual, primal fear, and only what are actually worries disguised as fear.

Secondly, I'm not saying nobody kills themselves because they're sad, but I will say that if you're lumping mental illness, such as depression, into this category, it is also possible that a discussion needs to be had about how depression isn't sadness. They are not the same thing, they are not similar, and (in fact) if depression is sadness at all, it is the sadness that is caused when one cannot feel sadness.

Thirdly, everyone I know (with one possible exception, since I didn't know him well) who has contemplated or committed suicide actually has/had a better understanding of the awe and wonder of the world around them than most of the people who mourned them. The fact that the universe is intense and intricate doesn't make one less likely to kill themselves. In some cases, it actually increases it.

steamboat28 wrote: Firstly, fear is the single most motivating stimulus to humans, even outranking pain and sex, so brushing it off like it doesn't matter is tantamount to saying you've never experienced true, actual, primal fear, and only what are actually worries disguised as fear.

Secondly, I'm not saying nobody kills themselves because they're sad, but I will say that if you're lumping mental illness, such as depression, into this category, it is also possible that a discussion needs to be had about how depression isn't sadness. They are not the same thing, they are not similar, and (in fact) if depression is sadness at all, it is the sadness that is caused when one cannot feel sadness.

Thirdly, everyone I know (with one possible exception, since I didn't know him well) who has contemplated or committed suicide actually has/had a better understanding of the awe and wonder of the world around them than most of the people who mourned them. The fact that the universe is intense and intricate doesn't make one less likely to kill themselves. In some cases, it actually increases it.

That's why I said self-created sufferings which are petty justifications to think of ending your life, which I shouldn't generalize as being responsible for most suicides. Obviously there are many people who find themselves in a real tough situation, others who have real mental illnesses, others who are brilliant upstanding people full of love and understanding and they just lose the will to live. I guess when I think of the idea of suicide I think of emotional unstable people who want or really need attention and they just lose it. It doesn't surprise me considering we live a rat race maze. Like I said this topic must be judged on a case by case basis, people's situations may be similar but are never the same. Suicide is probably only illegal because the system needs you for the tax on your income to fuel itself like a parasite, BUT like Wes said someone is going to have to clean you up. I just think that to consider suicide may be more on the selfish side, because you mistakenly believe you are separate from others, but as Elizabeth said you may feel you are at fault and others would be better off without you.

Growing up I knew kids who attempted it, and one successfully hung himself because he found out his dad was gay, or because he was dyslexic and some of the teachers would purposely make him read as if to make fun of him. Not sure what to think of it, and the kids who attempted were just being kids crying out for attention. So this very little experience on the subject is why I feel that it's generally unnecessary and not to be accepted as a right to do so, but again it's not a topic to discuss generally without understanding a person's life and their reasoning as I'm sure there may be plenty of situations we could all list where we may justify doing it. MAYBE.

(PLEASE READ: This is just my opinion and I do not want to offend anyone by my post, so make sure you take what I say in a understanding way)
Well said Lightstrider and others, not going to lie I had an experience like this. I lost everything and everyone at the time. Though, I can't give specifics; but I can say that something kept me alive and I am glad it did because I wouldn't have met everyone here or experience this wonderful place. Most of my life has been pretty horrible, though those experiences as I look back made me who I am today. I am strong willed and just like "that night" my mind told me "If you spend your moments now thinking of a wonderful death to have, why not spend these moments on a wonderful life to live". In all honesty if my mind did not say that, I would have given up on life it self. I am glad I didn't. Though, everyone should look at things case by case; these among other threads are hard for me to talk about. Though these tough questions we ask others and ourselves on here are great topics to hear both sides and learn a knowledge we never knew. "There is no ignorance, there is only knowledge".

I can justify suicide and not justify it. Though, after experiencing my life; I will stop someone from dying or committing it. I will be selfish and keep them alive, because that's what it is. Selfishness to die and selfishness to live or keep someone living. If someone is stopping someone from dying its because they don't want them to leave their own lives and keep them in it with out taking account or even knowing the other person's pain. The other is being selfish by wanting to leave their life to find peace because of their pain, but they are not figuring out that the people they leave behind will miss them greatly and make them sad. This is what brings up selfishness because in order for someone to be happy one must be selfish. 2 sides of the same coin. Its like Joseph Campbell said in one of the interviews in lesson 1, "what may seem right to some, might be wrong to others and vice verse". Overall, I just basically said the same thing as the main point. It really depends on case by case and what happens in the moment. If you had a chance to save someone would you? or wouldn't you. Personally, Like I said before. Even if they hate me and despise all of my being I will still stop them from hurting themselves. I don't want people leaving this world like that and if they do it makes me unhappy, so therefore it is my right to be selfish and stop them from killing themselves in order for me to be happy.

steamboat28 wrote: Are we discussing suicide as a "life" choice or the result of mental illness? The two scenarios are vastly different, in my opinion, as someone who's seen both at work.

Agreed, the two are vastly different.

And in my opinion, if it were decided that suicide is a right granted to an individual, it should not be extended to those that suffer mental illness or are not of sound mind. In the same regards that legal matters and medical decisions are not valid from one who is mentally ill or not of sound mind.

I am referring to suicide as a ‘life’ choice.

Sabel wrote: I can justify suicide and not justify it. Though, after experiencing my life; I will stop someone from dying or committing it. I will be selfish and keep them alive, because that's what it is. Selfishness to die and selfishness to live or keep someone living. If someone is stopping someone from dying its because they don't want them to leave their own lives and keep them in it with out taking account or even knowing the other person's pain. The other is being selfish by wanting to leave their life to find peace because of their pain, but they are not figuring out that the people they leave behind will miss them greatly and make them sad. This is what brings up selfishness because in order for someone to be happy one must be selfish. 2 sides of the same coin. Its like Joseph Campbell said in one of the interviews in lesson 1, "what may seem right to some, might be wrong to others and vice verse". Overall, I just basically said the same thing as the main point. It really depends on case by case and what happens in the moment. If you had a chance to save someone would you? or wouldn't you. Personally, Like I said before. Even if they hate me and despise all of my being I will still stop them from hurting themselves. I don't want people leaving this world like that and if they do it makes me unhappy, so therefore it is my right to be selfish and stop them from killing themselves in order for me to be happy.

I have talked people down from committing suicide that I did not know and had no vested interest in other than I hold all life to be sacred. I do not believe my act was selfish or motivated by selfish means or desires.

In my opinion, no matter how much pain we endure, we can always endure more. Pain is a part of life just as joy is. We try to minimalize it and we try to maximize joy, but they are both still a part of existence and one could not exist without the other.

Each person has two greatest days in their life. The day they are born and the day they realize why. Our past shapes and molds us to what we need to become for what we are meant to do. Maybe ending one’s life is what they were meant to do, be some kind of example or martyr. I have no idea!

I was meant to preserve life. To see the sanctity of it and to cherish each moment for that moments sake. And to love live no matter how hard, cruel or unkind it may be at times; because, it is life… a special gift that is only granted to the living.