Suicide

Wes wrote

And in my opinion, if it were decided that suicide is a right granted to an individual, it should not be extended to those that suffer mental illness or are not of sound mind. In the same regards that legal matters and medical decisions are not valid from one who is mentally ill or not of sound mind.


Just the act of talking about never mind attempting suicide is enough for most doctors to decide that you suffer from a mental illness. If suicide is a right that is granted to an individual how do you define 'life choice'?
Just curious how you see it .

I like to draw a difference between "life" and "living" or worded differently "being alive" and "feeling alive". It seems ridiculous to me to have a desire to want to protect life as much as possible, while caring less about actually making that life worth living. The majority of health spending in the UK is done in the final parts of someone's life, because it takes more and more resources to extend their life further and further beyond its "natural limit". It seems like there is a general obsession with prolonging life as much as possible, which I would think should be second to ensuring that the life lived is of the highest quality possible.

Perhaps that is tied into ideas of always looking to tomorrow rather than focusing on today?

I'm not arguing that suicide is a good thing, but one shouldn't be forcibly prevented from suicide just so that they can continue living - even when they live in misery.

I think there are many good reasons behind suicide, but like steamboat I draw a strong distinction between suicide caused by an informed choice and suicide caused by mental illness.

Alexandre Orion wrote: Suicide is much different though, and a difficult concept to defend ethically. Much of it reposes on the debate surrounding "self-ownership" -- a position which I cannot defend, that we own our bodies - as though our physical bodies were a form of property. They are not ...

In philosophy the term "agency" is used meaning: "the capacity to act". To deny someone suicide therefore means to deny one their "agency".

One thing I've always found interesting regarding suicide is the Japanese act uf seppuku. For most of my life the idea was rediculous to me. Then I read the book series "Legend of the Five Rings: The Clan Wars Saga" Only three or four of the seven books are really that good but you really need all seven to get the story.

In these books many of the characters commit seppuku and while reading them I completely understood the decisions. Each time it made sense to me, at least given that environment. Most of the time they did it because honor or duty was forcing them to do something that they didn't agree with and in that society dishonor was a fate worse than death, so they chose death.

One character didn't chose death, he allowed his family name to be dishonored in the worst way, and still he lived. That was, however, becuase he had things left to do in this world before he could leave it, including restoring his family's honor.

I guess what I'm saying, other than that it's a good series as a whole, is that there are situations where I get it. Also that there have been more than one society throughout history in which suicide was not only allowed, but expected in some situations.

Goken wrote: One thing I've always found interesting regarding suicide is the Japanese act uf seppuku.

Seppuku is one of the reasons I'm on the fence about suicide. Being a huge fan of military history, japanese culture, jidaigeki, chanbara, and even American copy-pastes like L5R, I've seen this issue from both the side of someone who desires this ephemeral concept of honor to be defended at nearly-all costs, and also from the side of someone who has contemplated suicide for less-noble reasons. I'm really, really not sure how I feel about it, especially since (in period) seppuku ranged from the romanticised and "honorable" reasons, to really idiotic reasons to throw one's life away.

I urge anyone who thinks this was solely a "noble" practice to watch Hara-Kiri: Death of a Samurai. The remake was on Netflix for a bit (unsure if it still is), and when the happiest part of the film is the ten minute scene of someone killing themselves with a bamboo sword that splinters as they twist it, you should be aware it's not sunshine and kittens.

elizabeth wrote: Wes wrote

And in my opinion, if it were decided that suicide is a right granted to an individual, it should not be extended to those that suffer mental illness or are not of sound mind. In the same regards that legal matters and medical decisions are not valid from one who is mentally ill or not of sound mind.


Just the act of talking about never mind attempting suicide is enough for most doctors to decide that you suffer from a mental illness. If suicide is a right that is granted to an individual how do you define 'life choice'?
Just curious how you see it .

I don’t really define ‘life choice.’ I was merely using someone else’s word.

To me, life is. It begins by the actions of others but life doesn’t have a choice. It starts because it is meant to.
No one can choose to be alive. And we can’t choose to continue one second longer than when it is time for us to expire. I don’t see suicide as a right people have but an error in judgment and thinking. A very permanent and costly error that should be avoided.

Wescli Wardest wrote: To me, life is. It begins by the actions of others but life doesn’t have a choice. It starts because it is meant to.
No one can choose to be alive. And we can’t choose to continue one second longer than when it is time for us to expire. I don’t see suicide as a right people have but an error in judgment and thinking. A very permanent and costly error that should be avoided.

There are many forms of suicide and many reasons for it, are they all an "error in judgement and thinking"?. Japanese seppuku was mentioned as a form of (ritual?) suicide. Not to mention the past forms of human sacrifice in which letting yourself die was considered a great honour and often very joyous for the participant. What about those Tibetan Monks that ritually burn themselves to death in order to send a message? Is martyrdom also a form of suicide? The person is well aware that what they are doing will lead to their death, but does it anyway.

This is kind of an aside but I remembered it from my Philosophy: Ethics class. I forget which philosopher it was, but he said was that people actually have children without that child's informed consent. Given the above it would therefore be just to allow them to commit suicide when they are then able to make an informed choice. In short: they never asked to be alive, that decision was forced upon them, therefore they should have the choice over whether they should live or not.

Akkarin wrote: There are many forms of suicide and many reasons for it, are they all an "error in judgement and thinking"?. Japanese seppuku was mentioned as a form of (ritual?) suicide. Not to mention the past forms of human sacrifice in which letting yourself die was considered a great honour and often very joyous for the participant. What about those Tibetan Monks that ritually burn themselves to death in order to send a message? Is martyrdom also a form of suicide? The person is well aware that what they are doing will lead to their death, but does it anyway.

This is kind of an aside but I remembered it from my Philosophy: Ethics class. I forget which philosopher it was, but he said was that people actually have children without that child's informed consent. Given the above it would therefore be just to allow them to commit suicide when they are then able to make an informed choice. In short: they never asked to be alive, that decision was forced upon them, therefore they should have the choice over whether they should live or not.

Yes, even Seppuku is an error in logic. This is shown when the first Shogun forbid Samurai from committing the act. From that point on, all samurai that committed Seppuku disgraced their Daimio and their family.

How many people have heard the message of the Dali Llama and how many people have heard the message of the Bar-B-Q’d monk? I have never heard the message of someone roasting themselves… so clearly that is didn’t work. Besides, self-martyrdom defeats the purpose of martyrdom.

They were never asked to be alive; they were ‘forced’ to be alive… that is because they did not exist before. Did you point out that your professor was making an argumentum ad absurdum? And that he is spreading a sick and destructive thought process to impressionable minds that do not yet have the maturity level to wade through the BS?

Let me ask you, if your friend lost his dog, his significant other broke up with him, he had no job and no friends, would you…
A ) Walk up and shoot him in the head to put him out of his misery because it is the best option?
B ) Give him a vial of sleeping pills and tell him it was best for all involved?
C ) Try to help him overcome thins part of his life?

The question and answer seem absurd and insulting to a reasonable person. And that’s what we have to relay to those that think suicide is a viable option… their line of thinking is flawed and under normal circumstances they would not consider their actions. Not defend their line of thinking because they are upset. Upset happens, life’s hard, get over it.

Are we discussing suicide as a "life" choice or the result of mental illness?

Is there a difference? Most of us have a desire to live. Akkarin mentioned that we have an obsession with extending life (even when it's not worth living) . A mental illness is when someone's brain doesn't work like everyone else's. Mental illness doesn't denote illogical, but divergent thought. And the way I see it, if your life sucks and isn't worth living, that you have no reason to believe it will ever be worth living, then suicide makes perfect logical sense. It's fear of death that is illogical.

Wes would you mind being a little more specific about what you mean by "error in logic"?

The Dalai Lama is an internationally famed figure so it is unsurprising that you haven't heard of a more unknown figure. Have you heard of all the unknown figures who teach the same things the Dalai Lama does? Of course not, the comparison you made seems a little inappropriate.

Regarding the friend with the dog, I did say "informed choice". For a choice to be informed it requires deliberation and consideration, not just a spur of the moment or idle thought.

If you have a seriously debilitating medical or physical condition you can't simply "get over it".


Regarding logic:

A utilitarian is someone who believes in maximising the greatest good for the greatest number of people. It is entirely reasonable for a utilitarian to come to the conclusion that in order to try and fulfill this goal. Whatever unhappiness etc that is caused by the suicide might be overwhelmingly outweighed for example by not having to use up lots of medical resources that could be used elsewhere, in addition to all the people who might be taxed to pay for such resources and the governmental budget, in addition to perhaps an inheritance gain for all the people related to that particular person. It is perfectly reasonable that a utilitarian might conclude - perfectly logically - that their death is the best course of action.

A hedonist is one who believes that the highest good one can achieve in life is the pursuit of pleasure. If their life from that point on is not going to contain much, or very little, pleasure relative to the vast amounts of pain and suffering they are likely to receive then they might conclude that suicide is the best option.

A consequentialist is one who believes that the consequences of an action determine its morality. Ever seen the film Armageddon? SPOILER Bruce Willis commits suicide to prevent the extinction of almost every living thing on the planet. His action which was to allow himself to die, on purpose and with full knowledge of the consequences, is certainly suicide.

What exactly do you mean by "error in logic"? When making a decision one follows a set of steps logically to arrive at their conclusion, which part of this process is in error?

Correct. Fear of death is illogical. It is our own hangups that make it an undesirable thing. On the other side of the coin, it is our hangups that can make it desirable. In both cases I suggest getting over myself and reminding me that it just is and unless circumstances call for it, I shouldn't spend to much time thinking about it.