Trans

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2152345/Body-dysmorphic-disorder-Judy-Asselin-tells-heartbreak-son-Nathaniel-24-killed-himself.html

I guess my opinion could perhaps be better understood if you read this story.

This guy killed himself because he believed he was ugly.
Would you have:
-Offered a face transplant
-tryed to find out why this guy thinks he's ugly and why being ugly distresses him (and devise a plan to destroy those causes)

I see SRS as being the same as option #1, which I consider a "cheap hack"(in the computer jargon sense) and misguided (there's nothing wrong with the guy's face, heck he's lucky to have a face). I see #2 as tackling a problem.

http://www.hemingways.org/GIDinfo/BDD.htm

This link covers the differences between Body Dysmorphic Disorder and Gender Dysphoria (called Gender Identity Disorder in the article due to its age).

While they may seem similar on the surface they have several very important differences and cannot be treated the same.

http://shine.yahoo.com/parenting/transgender-girl-wins-right-to-use-bathroom-at-public-school-183951487.html

BDD sufferers often don't want to undergo psychiatric treatment, because they firmly believe their "defect" has a physiological origin.

Those with GID are rarely convinced they are mistaken.

People that DO DEFINITELY have something wrong with them can be convinced there is nothing wrong with them. This includes people with severe deformities, mental disability, motor disability.

Rugadd's article also doesn't help your argument. I don't have a gender identity issue and will use any bathroom when in need. And will [strike]politely[/strike] tell anyone who complains they can piss off (whenever the men's haven't been cleaned in a month, I WILL go to the women's). I've had to share segregated changing rooms with people of the opposite sex. I often see girls in the men's changing room at the gym and they don't seem upset or trans to me. (people who go to changing rooms not to get changed really annoy me though)

Does the fact that gender dysphoria is resistant to such persuasion, even under the effects of pharmacological aids not suggest there's something else at work than mere psychological disorder? I've provided you evidence of the efficacy, I've provided you sources on the non-efficacy of treatments that work for body image disorders. What further can I demonstrate to you that this is both an inborn medical condition and that SRS is an effective enough treatment to warrant coverage?

Rugadd's article, I believe, was a bit of a non-sequitor connected to the subject of the thread rather than the conversation we're having. That said, the changing room situation is less egalitarian here in the states. Some people don't care, but many throw a fit. Mostly its a bit of a straw man that anti-trans rights groups use to try and rally people around. The fact that she's allowed to use the appropriate bathroom is good though.

Does the fact that gender dysphoria is resistant to such persuasion, even under the effects of pharmacological aids not suggest there's something else at work than mere psychological disorder? I've provided you evidence of the efficacy, I've provided you sources on the non-efficacy of treatments that work for body image disorders. What further can I demonstrate to you that this is both an inborn medical condition and that SRS is an effective enough treatment to warrant coverage?

If there is something we can learn from this thread, it is that persuasion won't pierce convictions.

I've provided you evidence of the efficacy

Not really, no.

What further can I demonstrate to you that this is both an inborn medical condition and that SRS is an effective enough treatment to warrant coverage?

You can't. no-one can. No study shows srs to be an adequate treatment. no research is being done into other possibilities. this to me sounds like "Those with GID are rarely convinced they are mistaken" and that therefore srs is about giving people what they think they need instead of what they actually need.

Look, on the other hand, at the possible psychological causes. There's a plethora of them. You get different treatment based on what's between your legs. If a girl doesn't like pink, what do you think is going to get the blame for all the pink shit girls get? Seems pretty obvious to me.

Note that I haven't made any suggestions when it comes to treatment. I've only made suggestions when it comes to finding the source of that ill feeling trans have about themselves.

Trans people say they want to be accepted for who they really are. Let's face it: anyone who thinks they'll be accepted after cutting their own dick off when they live in a society that judges people by the colour of their shoes is completely insane.

ren, Gender Identity Disorder was treated as purely psychological for almost its entire lifespan. It wasn't until the last decade or so that studies of postmortem transsexual brains and later living transsexuals started to suggest there were biological causes that this changed. The reason most modern research is into the biological causes and not just treating it as a psychological disorder is because treating it as such and researching it as such for 40+ years yielded no beneficial results excepting determining that transsexuals showed relief of dysphoria when allowed to undergo gender transition. Many doctors toyed with only having patients do crossdressing or only hormones and what they found was that what degree of transition was needed to fully alleviate the dysphoria was fairly individual, some of us need the surgery to be completely comfortable, some don't. At no point were any of these doctors successful in alleviating what they saw as the disorder, even with aversion therapy (such as electro-shock). Once possible biological causes were found most medical professionals got on board because treating it as a psychological problem wasn't working.

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I figured I would also contribute to this discussion.

It is pretty clear both of you are never going to convince one another of who's right and who's wrong.

So you should just agree to disagree before emotions get even higher.

Of course feel free to let your emotions get involved and break the first line of the Code.

I can't speak for anyone else in this conversation, but my emotions are perfectly in check, and it doesn't seem like anyone else is getting emotional either. We are simply having a discussion about this. No, we might not convince each other, but we can at least put information out there for anyone else who doesn't know anything about this topic. If you don't like the conversation you could easily just not click on this thread anymore. That's what's wonderful about an online forum. It's so easy to just go read some other thread instead.

As far as the code goes, even if we were getting emotional, sometimes that happens. Nobody is perfect all the time. We are all learning and growing constantly.

Red Lila wrote: ren, Gender Identity Disorder was treated as purely psychological for almost its entire lifespan. It wasn't until the last decade or so that studies of postmortem transsexual brains and later living transsexuals started to suggest there were biological causes that this changed. The reason most modern research is into the biological causes and not just treating it as a psychological disorder is because treating it as such and researching it as such for 40+ years yielded no beneficial results excepting determining that transsexuals showed relief of dysphoria when allowed to undergo gender transition. Many doctors toyed with only having patients do crossdressing or only hormones and what they found was that what degree of transition was needed to fully alleviate the dysphoria was fairly individual, some of us need the surgery to be completely comfortable, some don't. At no point were any of these doctors successful in alleviating what they saw as the disorder, even with aversion therapy (such as electro-shock). Once possible biological causes were found most medical professionals got on board because treating it as a psychological problem wasn't working.

I've got a feeling this "purely psychological" treatment was always of the same kind and aimed at crushing "unnatural feelings" more than anything else. Has it ever been, for example, "your feelings are perfectly normal" ?