Jedi Pyramid

Alethea Thompson wrote: Jestor, to get a document which we can all agree on, that's the first part of it. And then the second is to get us to all work on a project. One gigantic project involving every group within the Jedi Community.

Wiki would be lovely, but I know for a fact (after the Jediism Wiki fiasco) that getting it onto wiki without proper citations is an impossibility. But, with the idea I have in mind, that may suddenly become possible. PM, your inbox.

You asked for input so here's some for "our truth" and "core ethics".

Our Truth (I had an idea for what this could be referred to...and then I forgot it in the midst of a drive thru rush )

The Force- “The Force” is a loosely adapted term to explain a something which all cultures agree exist, but disagree on exactly what it is. As such, a Jedi dedicates themselves to understanding of all things within and through “the Force”. As an unwritten rule, no Jedi can set down in law a concrete definition of “the Force” for all to follow, only for themselves.

These are basically empty words. Although saying there is no general consensus as to what is the true nature of the Force actually is (and we agree we'll probably never know I think) is true, you don't even offer a basic definition. If you look at the SW prequels, which is what most agree with, the Force surrounds us and penetrates us, meaning it's in and out of us, meaning we're in it, and it's everywhere we look at. It's also in the past, in the present, and in the future.

This is the first sentence of totjo's doctrine-to-be: “Jediism is a religion based on the observance of the Force, a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe. “


Core Ethics

Loyalty to the Jedi Code- This has a few different variants depending on what order a Jedi attends. A Jedi is bound by the code, but not to the Jedi Order. By relinquishing your loyalties to the order, a government or some divine guiding force (not necessarily “the Force”) you are able to keep your actions in check through the moral integrity of the Jedi Path outlined in the Jedi Code. It is important that a Jedi checks their own version of the code against the original codes (Anderson and Skywalker Codes) before they adopt it.

Incompatible with the loyalty line of the jediism maxims. I'll quote the original:

“III. Loyalty
Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them. Jedi can exist in this universe because the Force exists. But the Jedi Order needs more: it requires loyalty. It goes without saying that Jedi should be loyal to one another. They should not squabble or fight. More importantly, though, each Jedi should be aware that he must act in accordance with the wishes of his Master, who must in turn act in accordance with the wishes of the Jedi Council. This is not a question of seniority, but rather of understanding the will of the Force, and in this regard, the members of the Jedi Council are wise council indeed.
“

And the new version:

“Loyalty: To have faith in your Jedi brothers and sisters.
A Jedi remains true to what they have learned and to their own teachings. A Jedi always serves those who wish to learn more of the ways of the Force and in doing so, remain loyal to the way of Jediism and their Order.
“

Duty to the People- A Jedi's mission is to support their community through service. This service can be taken in many different (legal) directions, such as becoming a taking a role within a project/career aimed at giving back to the community, or simply giving time to talk with a stranger in need. A Jedi is also charged with acting when they witness a serious crime, within their means, in an objective manner.

Law does not outweigh belief or sense of morality. Also I wish this line didn't mention crime (a negative thing) but helping/protecting people in danger (a positive thing, which covers a lot more). In my country, the “standard” first aid qualification mostly covers helping people by helping the professionals do a better job. It includes things like: assessing the situation, contacting the relevant authorities and giving them the information they need, and preventing “suraccident” (dont know how to translate this, but “overaccident” or “further accident” seems OK-ish). This means that you do not enter a building on fire if there's a chance you're going to get stuck there. When the fire dept arrives, they'd have two people to save instead of one, lessening the chance of survival of the original victim. It can also be about keeping other people away, especially in situations like electrocutions, etc.

Respect the Law- A Jedi knows enough of the law to operate within it. Jedi should respect, and do their best to live by, the laws of the land they are living in. However, these are man's law, and like man, subject to flaws. A Jedi must act for the best interest of mankind as he see the situation. This may include seeking to change the law through legislation or revolution (when no other options are available) to better the community they live in.

breaking the law = not OK, but starting revolutions is? I think you may want to avoid examples.

Defense, Not Assault- Jedi are not vigilantes. “Assault” is a much different concept than “attack”- if in the position of a defender attacking someone with the minimal amount of force necessary is covered within a Jedi's “Duty to the People”.

I think we talked before about attack/assault being semantics...

Usage of “The Force”- A Jedi chooses to use the Force primarily for knowledge and defense. This means that actions concerning the Force should use the least impacting and damaging method available when possible.

At totjo we're not the “force power” kind of jedi. “From a certain point of view” we also use the Force all the time, in ways that have nothing to do with acquisition of knowledge, defense, or causing damage. Also “impact” is something we should strive for in our actions or inactions. This is incompatible with both the jediism maxims and the 16 teachings.

original maxims:

XI. Pure Motive

It is true that actions speak louder than words. However, behind every action is motive and a purpose. Without a sound motive and purpose, action has no meaning, no destination, and lacks a foundation. Action without motive and purpose does nothing other than to move for the sake of moving, beating the air to appear to doing something, when in fact is doing nothing, the proverbial spinning wheels in the mud. A Jedi moves with the Force. He meditates upon the Will of the Force. A Jedi’s actions are firmly based upon a deep motivation to serve the Force of Light, and is deeply rooted in purpose. There is no wasted movement, or the need for action when none is required, for to a Jedi, action means nothing without a pure motive, or a sound purpose.

new version:

Pure Motive: To act with motive and purpose.

Without a sound motive and purpose, action has no meaning, no destination and lacks a foundation. A Jedi moves with the Force, trusts in its ways. A Jedi’s actions are firmly based upon a deep motivation to be as their path dictates.

also

Intervention: To know when not to act.

A Jedi knows how inaction can have as great an impact as action and how some of the greatest lessons are self-taught. To be a victor is also taking that victory from those you protect. A Jedi intervenes only when a Jedi's intervention is required.

Not opposite to what you are trying to say, but your text ignores wu-wei

multiple lines in the 16 teachings as well.

Sorry...

Maybe Im not phrasing it properly....

Then what of the document?

So we all agree on something...

Are you going g to ask for it to became official part if each site?

IF yes, we have explained we like what we have... And see no reason to accept something "just because every one else does... I think speed limits are a good idea, yet I violate it all the time...

IF no, what's the point? Get us to agree, then us it at FA only? I mean, I guess that's your call, but then why care what anyone else says? We know you are a good person, trying to do good things...

Jestor wrote: Sorry...

Maybe Im not phrasing it properly....

Then what of the document?

So we all agree on something...

Are you going g to ask for it to became official part if each site?

IF yes, we have explained we like what we have... And see no reason to accept something "just because every one else does... I think speed limits are a good idea, yet I violate it all the time...

IF no, what's the point? Get us to agree, then us it at FA only? I mean, I guess that's your call, but then why care what anyone else says? We know you are a good person, trying to do good things...

the point I've been trying to make all along, she doesn't seem to care

Whether an order will adopt it or not is their prerogative. I'm looking bigger than the individual groups, I'm looking for a project that rivals Adam Yaw's.

Ok, to be entirely honest, this is starting to feel like beating a dead horse. We've concluded that this exercise is, while not necessarily unwelcome, not entirely needed at this time. We have to ask ourselves: are we arguing this for selfish reasons (see previous post by myself), or is this a genuine interest in the betterment of not only TOTJO, but the Jedi community at large? Are we coming to this debate out of a sincere wish to better not only our own Temple, but the community as a whole? I mean no offense to anyone present, but when I said earlier that the members of the communities need to come to the proceedings with open minds, that included TOTJO as well. Now, as far as I've seen, we keep rehashing the same old arguments over and over again in the thread, meaning that the topic has grown stale. I wholeheartedly believe that this topic should be left alone for a while, at least until we get more information or are more inclined to be open minded about it.

It might to some....

You ever explain something to someone, or point to something arcade distance, and say, "do you see that?"

And then, through process of elimination, through discussion, some give and take, figure out what was being talked about?

And whooo-eee, it can get frustrating...

Now, make it purely an text conversation... No pointing, no other clues, just some words on a screen....

And, we are all familiar with each other, so that what reads aggressive, I'd nothing more than two peers/friends/whatever, conversing...

Alethea Thompson wrote: Whether an order will adopt it or not is their prerogative. I'm looking bigger than the individual groups, I'm looking for a project that rivals Adam Yaw's.

GJH?

ren wrote: You asked for input so here's some for "our truth" and "core ethics".

Our Truth (I had an idea for what this could be referred to...and then I forgot it in the midst of a drive thru rush )

The Force- “The Force” is a loosely adapted term to explain a something which all cultures agree exist, but disagree on exactly what it is. As such, a Jedi dedicates themselves to understanding of all things within and through “the Force”. As an unwritten rule, no Jedi can set down in law a concrete definition of “the Force” for all to follow, only for themselves.

These are basically empty words. Although saying there is no general consensus as to what is the true nature of the Force actually is (and we agree we'll probably never know I think) is true, you don't even offer a basic definition. If you look at the SW prequels, which is what most agree with, the Force surrounds us and penetrates us, meaning it's in and out of us, meaning we're in it, and it's everywhere we look at. It's also in the past, in the present, and in the future.

This is the first sentence of totjo's doctrine-to-be: “Jediism is a religion based on the observance of the Force, a ubiquitous and metaphysical power that a Jedi (a follower of Jediism) believes to be the underlying, fundamental nature of the universe. “

The only issue that I've found with "the Force" is that there are Jedi out there which do not actually believe "the Force" exists, instead they believe it is metaphor which communicates we are all connected (three guesses). Which I guess also works against the ethic "Usage of 'the Force'". On this, even the Star Wars definition ends up falling short on how some of the community looks at what "the Force" is. :dry:

Ren wrote: Core Ethics

Loyalty to the Jedi Code- This has a few different variants depending on what order a Jedi attends. A Jedi is bound by the code, but not to the Jedi Order. By relinquishing your loyalties to the order, a government or some divine guiding force (not necessarily “the Force”) you are able to keep your actions in check through the moral integrity of the Jedi Path outlined in the Jedi Code. It is important that a Jedi checks their own version of the code against the original codes (Anderson and Skywalker Codes) before they adopt it.

Incompatible with the loyalty line of the jediism maxims. I'll quote the original:

“III. Loyalty
Be known for unwavering commitment to the people and ideals you choose to live by. There are many places where compromise is expected; loyalty is not amongst them. Jedi can exist in this universe because the Force exists. But the Jedi Order needs more: it requires loyalty. It goes without saying that Jedi should be loyal to one another. They should not squabble or fight. More importantly, though, each Jedi should be aware that he must act in accordance with the wishes of his Master, who must in turn act in accordance with the wishes of the Jedi Council. This is not a question of seniority, but rather of understanding the will of the Force, and in this regard, the members of the Jedi Council are wise council indeed.“

And the new version:

“Loyalty: To have faith in your Jedi brothers and sisters.
A Jedi remains true to what they have learned and to their own teachings. A Jedi always serves those who wish to learn more of the ways of the Force and in doing so, remain loyal to the way of Jediism and their Order.“

I'll reword this, but I would like to ask a question regarding your own version of Loyalty. Hypothetically speaking, let's say that your order (not ToTJO, someone's personal order, regardless of where they are) begins to go the direction that we all saw Sith Academy taking (militaristic) to overthrow a government which the order felt was unjust, but you as an individual do not and feel compelled to stand against your order "on the battleground"? How exactly does this fit into Loyalty?

Ren wrote: Duty to the People- A Jedi's mission is to support their community through service. This service can be taken in many different (legal) directions, such as becoming a taking a role within a project/career aimed at giving back to the community, or simply giving time to talk with a stranger in need. A Jedi is also charged with acting when they witness a serious crime, within their means, in an objective manner.

Law does not outweigh belief or sense of morality. Also I wish this line didn't mention crime (a negative thing) but helping/protecting people in danger (a positive thing, which covers a lot more). In my country, the “standard” first aid qualification mostly covers helping people by helping the professionals do a better job. It includes things like: assessing the situation, contacting the relevant authorities and giving them the information they need, and preventing “suraccident” (dont know how to translate this, but “overaccident” or “further accident” seems OK-ish). This means that you do not enter a building on fire if there's a chance you're going to get stuck there. When the fire dept arrives, they'd have two people to save instead of one, lessening the chance of survival of the original victim. It can also be about keeping other people away, especially in situations like electrocutions, etc.

For both Brenna and Ren- does this work better? (can someone find a smoother method of writing this?)

Duty to the All- A Jedi's mission is to support their community (human, animal, plant or otherwise) through service. A Jedi is also charged with acting when they witness dangerous situations in an objective manner.

Respect the Law- A Jedi knows enough of the law to operate within it. Jedi should respect, and do their best to live by, the laws of the land they are living in. However, these are man's law, and like man, subject to flaws. A Jedi must act for the best interest of mankind as he see the situation. This may include seeking to change the law through legislation or revolution (when no other options are available) to better the community they live in.

breaking the law = not OK, but starting revolutions is? I think you may want to avoid examples.

Respect the Law- A Jedi knows enough of the law to operate within it. Jedi should respect, and do their best to live by, the laws of the land they are living in. However, these are man's law, and like man, subject to flaws. A Jedi must act for the best interest of mankind as he/she sees the situation.

Defense, Not Assault- Jedi are not vigilantes. “Assault” is a much different concept than “attack”- if in the position of a defender attacking someone with the minimal amount of force necessary is covered within a Jedi's “Duty to the People”.

I think we talked before about attack/assault being semantics...[/quote]

Legally speaking, they are not semantics. The original read something about knowing the legal definition of assault. How about:

Defense, Not Assault- Jedi are not vigilantes. If, however, they are placed in a position where they are defending someone against loss of life, limb or eyesight, using the minimal amount of force necessary is covered within a Jedi's "Duty to the People".

Ren wrote: Usage of “The Force”- A Jedi chooses to use the Force primarily for knowledge and defense. This means that actions concerning the Force should use the least impacting and damaging method available when possible.

At totjo we're not the “force power” kind of jedi. “From a certain point of view” we also use the Force all the time, in ways that have nothing to do with acquisition of knowledge, defense, or causing damage. Also “impact” is something we should strive for in our actions or inactions. This is incompatible with both the jediism maxims and the 16 teachings.

original maxims:

XI. Pure Motive

It is true that actions speak louder than words. However, behind every action is motive and a purpose. Without a sound motive and purpose, action has no meaning, no destination, and lacks a foundation. Action without motive and purpose does nothing other than to move for the sake of moving, beating the air to appear to doing something, when in fact is doing nothing, the proverbial spinning wheels in the mud. A Jedi moves with the Force. He meditates upon the Will of the Force. A Jedi’s actions are firmly based upon a deep motivation to serve the Force of Light, and is deeply rooted in purpose. There is no wasted movement, or the need for action when none is required, for to a Jedi, action means nothing without a pure motive, or a sound purpose.

new version:

Pure Motive: To act with motive and purpose.

Without a sound motive and purpose, action has no meaning, no destination and lacks a foundation. A Jedi moves with the Force, trusts in its ways. A Jedi’s actions are firmly based upon a deep motivation to be as their path dictates.

also

Intervention: To know when not to act.

A Jedi knows how inaction can have as great an impact as action and how some of the greatest lessons are self-taught. To be a victor is also taking that victory from those you protect. A Jedi intervenes only when a Jedi's intervention is required.

Not opposite to what you are trying to say, but your text ignores wu-wei

multiple lines in the 16 teachings as well.

Eliminate "Usage of 'the Force'" and replace it with "Action"

Action- A Jedi recognizes that there are times when getting involved with a situation is against the will of the person they are seeking to assist, or that helping them may be more detrimental in the long run. As such, a Jedi seeks inner wisdom to determine when to act and when not to act.

Brenna wrote: Fortitude-
I think needs to be more specific. It is emotional strength and conviction that allows you to deal with any circumstances, whether its “danger” or trauma or stress etc. Far more than just the will to keep going, it is the courage to hold to ones convictions in the face of any adversity.

The original was probably the superior to the second version, I'll dig it back up and see if I can reword this one.

Brenna wrote: Integrity- Integrity is about doing what is legally and morally right
This one is tricky, morally right according to who? Legally right according to who? In some countries it is legally right to stone someone to death for having a child out of wedlock...

In very few countries, but this one also goes to culture and tolerating their culture. Just sort of a side note (http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/22/weekinreview/22worth.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0)

ANYWAYS , what about this rendition?

Integrity- Integrity is about doing what is morally right. A Jedi should hold themselves to a high standard knowing that what they do when no one is looking is just as important as what they do when people are looking. To determine what is morally right, a Jedi seeks to define their understanding of "the will of the 'the Force'".

Brenna wrote: Objectivity-
I think this needs to be made a bit clearer. Objectivity is the ability to look assess something without emotional or cultural bias and with as little personal perspective as possible, not just looking at all sides.

I'll look back into this one as well.

Brenna wrote: Recklessness-
There is a great deal more to recklessness than simply endangering one’s life. Recklessness is a disregard for the consequences, whether it’s of your of your actions, or speech. Mindfulness of all that we think, say and do is important, no matter how small it is. And it’s also not just in regards to other people, but also the consequences our every day actions have on ourselves.

Another one I'll come back to (only because if I don't actually get my homework done today, I know myself well enough to know I won't get it done before the class is over, lol! )

Brenna wrote: Spiritual Art-
I think this needs to be less specific. Meditation is not the only path to connecting to our spirituality. And spirituality is about far more than a system of connection. A requirement that a Jedi explore their spirituality is essential, but how they connect with that needs to be far more open.

same here, lol

Alethea Thompson wrote:
The only issue that I've found with "the Force" is that there are Jedi out there which do not actually believe "the Force" exists

I think this applies to the overwhelming majority of Jedi. Not only do they not believe in it, but anyone who offers hard evidence and explanations for it gets burned at the stake.