Jedi Pyramid

The only person that ever really argues against it here, vehemently, is the one the most jaded from the process: Ren. He has seen so much rejection that he no longer sees a point. Which makes a lot of sense. Those who have actually taken the time to discuss constructively what is wrong or right about this document (rather than making a statement and not giving examples) have been engaged in a much more receptive fashion. I've even had one person come to me in private and offer a rewording of "Respect the Law" which is fabulous. Ren made the statement that it wasn't being discussed by the council- he should note that it isn't even a finished product, so why on earth would I ask the council to make a unified statement until its been pruned, thought out and debated?

The only people arguing are myself and Ren, the rest of you and I are debating or discussing.

Alethea, have you thought of maybe simplifying your pyramid. More words give people more things to pick at...and maybe if you had a smaller more condensed version it would be easier to understand and/or follow.

Concur. I've forgotten most of what I read within it from yesterday, when I actually had a relevant point about it.

Lets look at what Alethea and I have been saying in private...

Im actually the one who suggested changes to the "respect the law" portion.....

AT TOTJO, we all know the procedure, right?

At FA, their "Jedi" are roughly the equivalent of our "knights"... You can't call yourself a Jedi until certain parameters are met...

WHich, we deem as ridiculous, because anyone can call themselves a Jedi... You don't need TOTJO for that... I've even told people, "you don't need totjo to tell you thatbyou are a Jedi"...

Dont join, you don't need us...

At some point in our theologies, we all agree that to really be a Jedi, "continued learning, and yada-yada" is a good idea...

We just do it at knighthood...

If you were to look up, on the internet, what a Jedi is, you will get tons of answers...

Yet we all agree at some point...

So, with Aletheas document, I have suggested she include the sentiment that we all agree on what she has, but the words used, the points at which the definition comes true, and the methods to reach this, vary...

Does this make sense?

If she was to put it on the wiki page of a "Jedi" definition, and I including my disclaimer..

How should her document read?

SHe isn't trying to change TOTJO, or mold any group...

But there is too much stuff here to see that, and perhaps her approach could been better...

No offence to many, but, when you allow guests to discuss,as,well, it turns into a litany of Mister communication, with the point being lost...

My original question, of "what is this for, and why" still has not been answered publicly...
Alethea?

You seem quite intent on making assumptions about me (not to mention the personal attacks), so here, allow me to reiterate my points in a simpler form for you:

-totjo will retain its own doctrine, because we believe in denominations
-Totjo believes in individualized training. not individualized training only for disabled people.
-totjo believes in free determination within religious structures. Your document will not be accepted here. It may be accepted elsewhere. Have those other places define what they want to live by without interference from us.
-totjo's doctrine is already very similar to your pyramid. The initiates programme already covers studying the doctrine.

And here's an extra one:

-totjo is overlooked by the council. the council is what you have to convince of anything. you've already shot yourself in the foot on that front.


You know what the funny thing is? I'm the guy who rewrites the doctrine (part of which I posted in this thread, especially for you). It is I who rewrites the IP, and has an old project in need of restarting called "post-apprenticeship course" for which i need to gather material. Andy and you have done a great job at convincing me I shouldn't accept anything from your communities. Thank you.

Dont join, you don't need us...

You sure are a strange VP of membership affairs you know that?

My original question, of "what is this for, and why" still has not been answered publicly...
Alethea?

Agreed. What is this for? I keep telling you you're not putting anything on the table.

She isn't trying to change TOTJO, or mold any group...

To be fair, it's not and never will be about what she or anyone else wants to do, but what they actually do or do not (including repercussions).

ren wrote:

Dont join, you don't need us...

You sure are a strange VP of membership affairs you know that?

Its true... lol...

ANd people respond to it...

THey don't want people telling them how to define themselves, or their beliefs...

The want respect, tolerence and understanding for those they have...

We offer the opportunity for that...

That's why we only request the oath, and an app....

But hey! You want to improve yourself? Well, that sounds like some "knight" qualities there..

OH? You want to help others? Even better...

They don't need us, need TOTJO...

TOTJO needs them...

HUGS for all! I read most of the conversation and wow, pretty long people. But I just wanted to express (possibly repeating) the idea that i believe as do a couple of others i think-

If someone calls themselves a Jedi, are they not so, if only in their own mind and even if everyone else (perhaps including even you or me) disagrees? The majority doesn't matter to the determined individual. I'd like to argue the same can go for the insane, who believe fervently themselves normal and sane.. We can ONLY TAKE THEIR WORDS FOR IT whether they're sane and wait to see their actions reflecting their words.I think the same goes for being a jedi. We don't know for sure but after time we believe their actions follow through with their words.

Sometimes people sadly reach barriers with each other they cannot cross and refuse to listen to the another and start see the worst in each other, so i'll say to you Aleathea, I TRUST REN. I believe he IS a jedi. Do Jedi(is there a plural of Jedi??) seek power? I don't think so. And I don't even know him personally but I believe. So whilst it's fine for you to accuse him of taking over all the jedi and the world and why not the universe, I believe it's likewise fine for me to say you that I think you're mistaken. Don't get annoyed with him. Being annoyed is NOT peaceful. I mention this because I like the idea you mentioned, Emotion yet peace, so relax a little, HUG

And finally to the real question. I personally think drawing up a complete guideline of "How To Be A Jedi" will complicate and cause trouble rather than unify people. I think it's better that people can come online to debate what is a Jedi and find their own meaning to it. One person's answer to a question is not necessarily anothers. So let US and everyone have fun, finding our own answers (and paths) and SUGGEST ways to anothers who want to find their own paths rather than ENFORCE your answer onto others.

Lots of peaceful wishes to everyone here

Vusuki wrote: If someone calls themselves a Jedi, are they not so, if only in their own mind and even if everyone else (perhaps including even you or me) disagrees?

I am an autobot because I follow the autobot code. http://tfwiki.net/wiki/Autobot_Code

Sorry to say I don't believe you, but If you really do believe you're an autobot... Good for you, I don't see any harm in you being that! Hope you're having fun wherever you are Autobot. Can this be your new nick-name? Autobot Maynoth?