Developing tk/pk

MartaLina wrote: What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

Yes it is there and yes we can actually measure it. Being in love floods the brain with chemicals and hormones that produce feelings of pleasure, obsession and attachment. Neuroscientists divide love into three phases: lust, attraction and attachment. During the lust phase, hormones flood the body with feelings of intense desire. Adrenaline and norepinephrine make the heart race and the palms sweat, while the brain chemical dopamine creates feelings of euphoria. The brain releases dopamine in response to other pleasurable stimuli too, including drugs, which explains the so-called lovers' high. Even before people fall in love, seeing an attractive face activates the same part of the brain as do painkillers such as morphine: the opioid system. This part of the brain is responsible for feelings of "liking."

Being in love increases blood flow to the brain's pleasure center, the nucleus accumbens. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans show this region lights up when people are in love. The surge in blood flow usually happens during the attraction phase, when partners become fixated on each other. Love lowers levels of the brain chemical serotonin, a common attribute of obsessive-compulsive disorders. The serotonin drop could explain why lovers display such single-minded concentration on the object of their affection. These feelings can also cause lovers to be blind to their partner's undesirable traits in the early stages of a relationship, choosing to focus only on their partner's good qualities. After people have been in love for some time, the body develops a tolerance to the pleasurable chemicals. The attraction phase gives way to the attachment phase, when the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin permeate the brain and create feelings of well-being and security.

So not only love but the various stages and incarnations of love can be measured. What do we get when we try to measure PK...Flatline baby!

:dry: Triple post, :laugh:

Temple is no friend to mobile devices, double post, please moderate, etc etc ad nauseum...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

MartaLina wrote: What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

Yes it is there and yes we can actually measure it. Being in love floods the brain with chemicals and hormones that produce feelings of pleasure, obsession and attachment. Neuroscientists divide love into three phases: lust, attraction and attachment. During the lust phase, hormones flood the body with feelings of intense desire. Adrenaline and norepinephrine make the heart race and the palms sweat, while the brain chemical dopamine creates feelings of euphoria. The brain releases dopamine in response to other pleasurable stimuli too, including drugs, which explains the so-called lovers' high. Even before people fall in love, seeing an attractive face activates the same part of the brain as do painkillers such as morphine: the opioid system. This part of the brain is responsible for feelings of "liking."

Being in love increases blood flow to the brain's pleasure center, the nucleus accumbens. Magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) scans show this region lights up when people are in love. The surge in blood flow usually happens during the attraction phase, when partners become fixated on each other. Love lowers levels of the brain chemical serotonin, a common attribute of obsessive-compulsive disorders. The serotonin drop could explain why lovers display such single-minded concentration on the object of their affection. These feelings can also cause lovers to be blind to their partner's undesirable traits in the early stages of a relationship, choosing to focus only on their partner's good qualities. After people have been in love for some time, the body develops a tolerance to the pleasurable chemicals. The attraction phase gives way to the attachment phase, when the hormones oxytocin and vasopressin permeate the brain and create feelings of well-being and security.

So not only love but the various stages and incarnations of love can be measured. What do we get when we try to measure PK...Flatline baby!

Might want to include sources the next time you cut n paste...


http://ri.search.yahoo.com/_ylt=AwrTHRDBk9RXulEA.idXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTEyZTBoaTR2BGNvbG8DZ3ExBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjE5MTBfMQRzZWMDc3I-/RV=2/RE=1473578050/RO=10/RU=http://www.livescience.com/43395-ways-love-affects-the-brain.html/RK=0/RS=1JoCqNHchq4fPYrILQn3gsdlu_8-

Khaos wrote:

What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

Yet, you would have no problem stating it IS there because you cannot measure it?

:huh:

As for love, while I suppose you cannot measure it, yet, you can express it in a measurable way.

However, that does not apply in any real consistent or measurable way for TK/PK

Now, if you say it cannot be measured and yet claim it can be demonstrated, then you are saying it can be measured in some way in an observable sense( Moving things with your mind should be a measurable instance, not unlike hugging, for love, or a kiss), not unlike love.

Yet, this is not the case, and it hasnt gotten any better at making it so

Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science... if someone can do TK/PK I'd really want them to apply try to apply science to it! New discoveries would be one of the main sources of expanding the frontiers of science, by allowing new tools to be created to look deeper/further/beyond what was previously considered to be the limits.

Yet, there is nothing to measure for science, or to create tools for.

You know, because those that actually CAN do it in a big way wont, for a myriad of excuses, money, fame, or science, which is strange no matter how you slice it.

Seriously, you can state how something can be beyond science, but in this case, there is nothing to measure past hearsay in he first place.

New frontiers? Show that there is such a frontier.

Even were there not tools to measure it, a display, a consistant repeatable display would be enough for any scientist to put thousands of hours in trying to find ways to measure, and develop it, or ways to develop it.

A drove of real scientists would.

You say its possible, I say "Ok show it to me"

Aaaaannnd you cant.

I do so wonder what people coming into my BJJ class say to such a sales pitch.

"Show me it works"

"Sorry, I cant, and its beyond perception, but you will certainly be able to defend yourself with it."

No....That dont metal.

Always a perception/conflict of science vs intuition. There is none. The difference is only the beliefs that you hang onto too tight. It's all about learning and understanding. Use what works for you but don't limit yourself. Be flexible and open minded

Khaos wrote:

Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science... if someone can do TK/PK I'd really want them to apply try to apply science to it! New discoveries would be one of the main sources of expanding the frontiers of science, by allowing new tools to be created to look deeper/further/beyond what was previously considered to be the limits.

Yet, there is nothing to measure for science, or to create tools for.

You know, because those that actually CAN do it in a big way wont, for a myriad of excuses, money, fame, or science, which is strange no matter how you slice it.

Seriously, you can state how something can be beyond science, but in this case, there is nothing to measure past hearsay in he first place.

New frontiers? Show that there is such a frontier.

That's easy.... I'm not asserting its existence, just the right for people to discuss trying to discover it in this forum without people asserting its non-existence to the point that it derails the threads topic.

Your belief is not required for others belief, as I said earlier, if it upsets you when other people discuss it - perhaps consider it as a meditation rather then an effort to quantify or discover something otherwise unknown. Is anyone here saying they have proof? If not, then your assertions of failure seem misplaced and well... offtopic.

What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

Yet, you would have no problem stating it IS there because you cannot measure it?

:huh:

As for love, while I suppose you cannot measure it, yet, you can express it in a measurable way.

However, that does not apply in any real consistent or measurable way for TK/PK

Now, if you say it cannot be measured and yet claim it can be demonstrated, then you are saying it can be measured in some way in an observable sense( Moving things with your mind should be a measurable instance, not unlike hugging, for love, or a kiss), not unlike love.

Yet, this is not the case, and it hasnt gotten any better at making it so

Hmm i actually had to sleep on this one , you have some good points here , however i see now where we differ , i see love as taking responsibililty for another beings happiness or if thats out of reach a part of their well being , putting them in front of myself , therefore its almost impossible to measure my love for them , esp when i have to keep that love hidden. I assume that you measure love in hugs and kisses? That would be great actually , the world would be so wonderfull if we could all show love in that manner

And thanks for pointing out one of my thinking flaws , i do indeed have no trouble at all stating that i have seen angels and stuff like that , i cannot prove their existense even if many more have seen them , its not measurable indeed. I love sience by the way , and empirical evidence is very important where saving lives are concerned def !! But i cannot help but dream there is more to life than just empirical evidence , and having said that , i agree with you that i should be more carefull with stating experience as evidence.

Adder wrote: That's easy.... I'm not asserting its existence, just the right for people to discuss trying to discover it in this forum without people asserting its non-existence to the point that it derails the threads topic.

The topic is TK/PK (and arguably any of the other items in the second article) and since the OP posed no specific question, I'd say pretty much anything that vaguely touches upon that topic goes. To respond to what other people say on the topic without going completely unrelated directions also doesn't seem like much of a derailment, but feel free to correct me if I misunderstand. If anything, I'd argue that the first actual derailment came through RyuJin in post #256264, when he first brought science into the mix for no reason and that would not be the last derailment. Indeed, the post I am right now responding to doesn't seem very on topic itself, is it?
At any rate, I would much appreciate if you could refer to the post where anyone asserted or implied that someone did not have a right to discuss the topic at hand or was even discouraged from doing so.

Your belief is not required for others belief [sic], as I said earlier, if it upsets you when other people discuss it - perhaps consider it as a meditation rather then an effort to quantify or discover something otherwise unknown. Is anyone here saying they have proof? If not, then your assertions of failure seem misplaced and well... offtopic.

It seems like the only ones upset are those who would rather one side shut up. Now, since Khaos is here, I'll leave it to him to explain how he feels about it, if he so pleases, but I wouldn't learn much from a discussion like that and I always felt like this was supposed to be a place of growth and learning.
Nobody needs to say they have proof. But there comes a burden of justification with any positive claim, and uninterrupted, millennia-long failure to meet it is itself quite something to consider when evaluating the veracity of the claim which is surely a meta-question to be settled before we go on discussing the implications of something that until then might very well not even be a thing.
Now, of course everybody is welcome to believe anything and everything for good and bad reasons and without reason, too, and in an effort to learn and improve, I am for one eager to hear what they believe and what their reasons are and meditation cannot answer that as well as the people I ask and challenge, to my own benefit as much as to theirs. We are then having a discussion. Does that upset someone?

Gisteron wrote:

Adder wrote: That's easy.... I'm not asserting its existence, just the right for people to discuss trying to discover it in this forum without people asserting its non-existence to the point that it derails the threads topic.

The topic is TK/PK (and arguably any of the other items in the second article) and since the OP posed no specific question, I'd say pretty much anything that vaguely touches upon that topic goes.

First of all, the topic is "developing tk/pk," and that's the title for those who can't read. Second, doesn't really matter what "you say" as you're not a moderator.

This most certainly is a place of growth and learning, thirdly you're also not a teacher, and it doesn't seem you or Khaos are here to "grow & learn" but Instead hack away at anyone's theories which aren't locktight as both of you are excellent debaters, fully know it and feed from the conflict.

People are becoming hesitant to express their views here for fear of being ridiculed by the two of you. Enjoy it while it lasts, because this too shall pass boys...

Smh, science wasn't brought in for no reason...you and a couple of others sought to discuss/debate the subject as skeptics...i'm not an idiot, I know skeptics and debaters demand empirical evidence...and the only way to obtain that is through the application of science..

Just because one cannot read between the lines does not mean there isn't anything written there...

One day perhaps I will become a masterdebater, but for now I have no interest in it(I get the impression it causes chafing)...

This has gone a long way from my intent...I was merely providing information for folks that were interested in a topic and instead I wound up in a swarm of mynocks...oh well...

Zenchi wrote: First of all, the topic is "developing tk/pk," and that's the title for those who can't read. Second, doesn't really matter what "you say" as you're not a moderator.

Neither are you, but you are nonetheless welcome to explain how either a critical position or a response to another one on the topic is a derailment while this right here isn't.

This most certainly is a place of growth and learning, thirdly you're also not a teacher, and it doesn't seem you or Khaos are here to "grow & learn" but Instead hack away at anyone's theories which aren't locktight as both of you are excellent debaters, fully know it and feed from the conflict.

Not only teachers can learn and not only from teachers can anyone else learn. If you find that an environment where no critical opinions are voiced is a better place of learning, if you are opposed to the socratic dialogue (if I may so arrogantly give myself that much credit), you are welcome to try and ban it from TOTJO, but until you have, I have done nothing wrong and owe you no apology.

People are becoming hesitant to express their views here for fear of being ridiculed by the two of you.

Well, if there was so much as one person I ever ridiculed over anything during my time here, I could understand such fears. But I haven't, and I don't. Now, I do suppose that some are hesitant to express themselves on subforums that encourage public discussion, for fear of their views being challenged. Because I cannot relate to that I have no words to comfort them, but I do understand why they might suspect that there is this risk.

Enjoy it while it lasts, because this too shall pass boys...

Is that a threat? :side:

This most certainly is a place of growth and learning, thirdly you're also not a teacher, and it doesn't seem you or Khaos are here to "grow & learn" but Instead hack away at anyone's theories which aren't locktight as both of you are excellent debaters, fully know it and feed from the conflict.

Actually, I am an educator. You could argue I am not one here in any official capacity, however, it is also here that people will also argue that anyone can be a teacher, regardless, of age, rank, and affiliation.

So, unless YOU believe you have nothing to learn from anyone other than official TotJO resources then it is you who doesnt seem here to "learn and grow" but just be comfortable in a box "expressing your opinions" without any sort of critical approach.

This is not growing and learning, it then becomes a small pond dedicated to padding fragile egos that cannot handle anything more than agreement to their views.

Hmmm, so then, what is it that is being grown here? Because for all your accusations of ridiculed and such, im sorry, thats weak sauce.

More it seems what is being grown then, is a weakness of constitution and character.

Is TotJO a place where everyone gets to be right? Regardless of topic and belief?

Well, that way you can go through life never having to "grow, and learn" at all.

Enjoy it while it lasts, because this too shall pass boys...

Yes, it will, one way or the other, and regardless of consequence I suppose it will be too much to actually expect anything to have taken anything away of value here other that if they dont like something that challenges their worldview they can possibly complain enough to make it go away.

Too bad for those people, as life will seldom offer such luxury.

Gisteron wrote:

Zenchi wrote: First of all, the topic is "developing tk/pk," and that's the title for those who can't read. Second, doesn't really matter what "you say" as you're not a moderator.

Neither are you, but you are nonetheless welcome to explain how either a critical position or a response to another one on the topic is a derailment while this right here isn't.

How about the thread author and a forum moderator? If your not discussing developing TK/PK or going with a related offshoot then you'd seem to be offtopic to me, and since it's also explicitly counter to the topic by arguing against it - it's probably deserving a thread split..... which would be messy, which is my forum moderators don't appreciate that sort of derail IMO. The difference between derailment and a thread evolving is the the relation to the topic - but in my eyes anti-topic does not count and therefore locking would be inappropriate. If it continues on... then I'll look at splitting it, letting the other one be the least understandable, and enforcing it going on. That is my opinion anyway, other mods might disagree... but then again I'm a bit grumpy today.

Could I humbly suggest that at this point, this thread's purpose is now the 'derailment' and not the original post...

Are you volunteering to split them? :lol:

I din't like people shutting down conversations by arguing against the topic, and thread locking is an equivalent result. I'll make an assessment about splitting, and if not defer to the thread creator in regards to locking.

Adder wrote: Are you volunteering to split them? :lol:

I din't like people shutting down conversations and thread locking is an equivalent result. I'll make an assessment about splitting, and if not defer to the thread creator in regards to locking.

Not my job anymore

Perhaps just start a new thread for the original subject and rename this one?

I'm sure though that as a mod we were encouraged not to lock a thread just cos the thread creator wanted it (not saying at this point that Ryu does).

Edan wrote: I'm sure though that as a mod we were encouraged not to lock a thread just cos the thread creator wanted it (not saying at this point that Ryu does).

That would assume it was my only reason, and as I said I'd ask. If I already knew I wouldn't need to ask... so to me that should tell you I would be using that piece of information as an additional factor in my decision - not the main factor.

Adder wrote:

Edan wrote: I'm sure though that as a mod we were encouraged not to lock a thread just cos the thread creator wanted it (not saying at this point that Ryu does).

That would assume it was my only reason, and as I said I'd ask. If I already knew I wouldn't need to ask... so to me that should tell you I would be using that piece of information as an additional factor in my decision - not the main factor.

I think you misunderstood a little what I meant (or I wasn't clear enough).

Either way, I don't think closing this thread is the right option, and now I'm derailing the derailment that is arguably no longer a derailment... so this is my last post!

im just curious if anyone - anyone at all - has, at page 7, an opinion on tk/pk which is at all different from the opinion they had at page 1?

---

Edan wrote:

Adder wrote:

Edan wrote: I'm sure though that as a mod we were encouraged not to lock a thread just cos the thread creator wanted it (not saying at this point that Ryu does).

That would assume it was my only reason, and as I said I'd ask. If I already knew I wouldn't need to ask... so to me that should tell you I would be using that piece of information as an additional factor in my decision - not the main factor.

I think you misunderstood a little what I meant (or I wasn't clear enough).

Either way, I don't think closing this thread is the right option, and now I'm derailing the derailment that is arguably no longer a derailment... so this is my last post!

best post of thread, for so many reasons

Seriously? It was respectfully asked if contrary opinions would be entertained and that was approved. So that was embarked upon. So now why this discussion on what is appropriate to counter the original content?