Developing tk/pk

RyuJin wrote: At one point it was "impossible" for 1 object to be in 2 places at the same time...then they achieved it with the hadron collider...

They did? How? Any citations on that?

At one point it was "impossible" to bring someone back from the dead...then we developed defibrillators...

And the dead are still as dead as they ever were. What's your point?

Imagine the impossibilities we'll overcome in the distant future...

I suppose anything that is possible in principle might at some point become possible in practice. Are you implying that TK/PK is one such thing? If so, citation, please.

Also, unlike the woo-woo crowd, science and engineering actually has a track record of achievements and successes. The moment their methods are brought anywhere in the vicinity of woo, it crumbles and collapses, yelling that those evil skeptics are conspired to laugh at them, meanwhile having done nothing to be taken serious in the first place. Critical thinking is a cornerstone of science and a wrecking ball to woo and the woo folks know it and discourage it for that reason.

RyuJin wrote: At one point it was "impossible" for 1 object to be in 2 places at the same time...then they achieved it with the hadron collider...

At one point it was "impossible" to bring someone back from the dead...then we developed defibrillators...

Imagine the impossibilities we'll overcome in the distant future...

Actually quantum particles have always has the ability to be in two places at once, in fact many places, called superposition. However I have no idea what this has to do with the collider as it is a particle accelerator/smasher and has nothing to do with bi-location. It was the rigors of science that allowed us to build things like the collider to discover what was already in operation and thus better understand our universe.

As for the human physiology, its mechanisms have also always possessed the ability to be resurrected from recent death given very specific and exacting conditions – it’s just that we did not possess the technical knowledge until recently to be well versed in those techniques. We can thank science for discovering and documenting those processes, now well defined withing the framework of natural law. However we still can’t use magic, or energy healing, or any other "psycho-whats-it" to miraculously just fix any injury or malady that results in death. Those things are outside the realm of science because they do not have any quantifiable means within the laws of physics to function as such. Instead they are composed of empty assertions and hollow promises.

By your logic we should just be able to invent or conjure up anything we dream of if we just "imagine the possibility" hard enough. We would not have to operate within the laws of nature at all. If that is the case there is nothing to say that I cant one day develop the ability to shoot green monkeys out of my butt that eat nuclear waste. Energy Crisis solved or a gross misuse of the laws of logic? The world may never know! :laugh: :silly:

Transparent aluminum was once a thing of imagination, and is now a reality...Bluetooth technology was a thing of imagination, and is now a reality...imagination is the birthplace of progress...someone imagines a concept then works towards achieving it, along the way there are countless failures and sometimes the originator of the idea never lives to see its fruition...orwell, verne, disney, all dreamers imagining amazing things...some of which now exist, some which still don't... most scientists only apply themselves to things that have a payoff within their lifetime, few do it for the love of science or out of pure curiosity...money and need drive advancement...if there isn't a practical need or a way to profit from something it's cast aside as a waste of time...

Ok, but those are just applications of technology. They have nothing to do with a naturally evolved sense or ability that uses an aspect of the laws of physics to manipulate matter. Are you saying that we may one day develop the technology to give us the ability to do PK? If this is the case I see little reason to discuss a natural ability that may or may not have evolved and even less need to explore the training of our minds to develop that ability? Instead we just need to develop the technology to artificially allow us to access that ability.

See, Ryu, I wouldn't even grant as much as Kyrin does here. First of all, thanks for just swiftly ignoring the responses to the previous argument that is invalid in structure and unsound in its premises, and just moving on to more assertions. Do not validate us for that would be after all beneath you...

But then of course let's remember that transparent aluminium wasn't imagined to be quite like the real thing. Bluetooth is a very specific patent and wireless information transmission existed long before bluetooth did.
Imagination is the birthplace of art. Progress is born out of need, and science moves forward out of curiosity. Most of what Orwell, Verne or Disney made up either never came to be or came to be in the broadest and most generous reinterpretations.
I don't know what scientists you surveyed, but I can think off the top of my head of entire fields of science that outside of motivating other fields did almost nothing to contribute to our daily lives even once, like astronomy, paleontology and history. The reason nobody wastes time on magic anymore is because they have wasted well enough time on that to understand that there is no point in wasting any more.
While we are at it, are you seriously implying that all of the most educated and brilliant minds on the planet are collectively blind to the potential profits of magic? Do you think they never heard of the countless hacks who make millions by simply lying to their audiences about it, to say nothing of the money religions make by cultivating pretty much the same kind of claims on the same kind of thinking?
"Oh, these small-minded unimaginative intellectuals who only care about their own immediate benefit, what do they really know about anything?"
No! [Censored] this!

Gisteron wrote: See, Ryu, I wouldn't even grant as much as Kyrin does here. First of all, thanks for just swiftly ignoring the responses to the previous argument that is invalid in structure and unsound in its premises, and just moving on to more assertions. Do not validate us for that would be after all beneath you...

But then of course let's remember that transparent aluminium wasn't imagined to be quite like the real thing. Bluetooth is a very specific patent and wireless information transmission existed long before bluetooth did.
Imagination is the birthplace of art. Progress is born out of need, and science moves forward out of curiosity. Most of what Orwell, Verne or Disney made up either never came to be or came to be in the broadest and most generous reinterpretations.
I don't know what scientists you surveyed, but I can think off the top of my head of entire fields of science that outside of motivating other fields did almost nothing to contribute to our daily lives even once, like astronomy, paleontology and history. The reason nobody wastes time on magic anymore is because they have wasted well enough time on that to understand that there is no point in wasting any more.
While we are at it, are you seriously implying that all of the most educated and brilliant minds on the planet are collectively blind to the potential profits of magic? Do you think they never heard of the countless hacks who make millions by simply lying to their audiences about it, to say nothing of the money religions make by cultivating pretty much the same kind of claims on the same kind of thinking?
"Oh, these small-minded unimaginative intellectuals who only care about their own immediate benefit, what do they really know about anything?"
No! [Censored] this!

Perhaps if you weren't such a troll on a regular basis? So you disagree with him, now you're going to throw a fit because he denied you the satisfaction of acknowledging your side of things? That's troll behavior simply put, and proves your weren't so much interested in having a healthy discussion/debate, over just nit picking the thread like you do so many others like a scab, because your fairly good with words and feed off of the conflict. Please get over yourself...

Zenchi wrote: ... now you're going to throw a fit because he denied you the satisfaction of acknowledging your side of things?[/colore]

Actually, no, if you'd read the post you just quoted unabridged, you'll notice how i responded to more or less every bit he said. It's not like I feel entitled to personal validation either; Ryu ignored my response just as much as he ignored Khaos' and Kyrin's. Now, I may have never formally learned how to have a healthy discussion or debate, but where I come from that usually entails a back and forth, a dialogue. If you find that this is a trollish expectation I have of discussion partners, I can well live with that. Of course nobody is actually required to oblige. I'm just pointing to the irony of implying that the other side is the closed-minded and self-centered one, while one oneself keeps preaching on as if there is nothing to be discussed, nothing to be questioned.

Which part is the troll part exactly? Why also, are well reasoned arguments considered trolling?

I mean, going off of the phrase " There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" why then is it that when people simply wont take anecdotal evidence, or poorly researched or outright bad research and claims of fantastic claims(Which should also have fantastic evidence) it is considered trolling rude, or what have you.

Is only blind acceptance considered not trolling here anymore?

Im sorry, but this place is getting a bit much on calling out butt hurt as trolling and I am a bit tired of it.

Its much easier to claim trolling and such rather than practice some sort of level of that Jedi detachment I am always hearing about and address the argument objectively rather than respond emotionally and make a mountain out of a molehill.

Its getting ridiculous now.

You cannot even have an adult, mature, conversation anymore and shouldnt contribute unless your just padding each others fragile egos, instead of peer reviewing, discussing, and debating the topics here in such a way as to actually explore and get something out of the conversation other than " One time, I had a cool experience.. and it doesnt matter if science, or anything else disagrees I know its all true, etc".

So, basically, unless we are going to agree and pad your ego, you are going to basically say what you want, and do the forum version to covering your ears and screaming "LALALALALA" if it isnt something you want to hear, or claim its trolling, rude, bullying, etc.

Khaos wrote: Which part is the troll part exactly? Why also, are well reasoned arguments considered trolling?

I mean, going off of the phrase " There is no ignorance, there is knowledge" why then is it that when people simply wont take anecdotal evidence, or poorly researched or outright bad research and claims of fantastic claims(Which should also have fantastic evidence) it is considered trolling rude, or what have you.

Is only blind acceptance considered not trolling here anymore?

Not at all, its all about presentation, should be common sense as long as you've had an account here...

Im sorry, but this place is getting a bit much on calling out butt hurt as trolling and I am a bit tired of it.

Believe I've heard that song and dance before from you Khaos...

Its much easier to claim trolling and such rather than practice some sort of level of that Jedi detachment I am always hearing about and address the argument objectively rather than respond emotionally and make a mountain out of a molehill.

Its getting ridiculous now.

You cannot even have an adult, mature, conversation anymore unless your just padding each others fragile egos.

And yet you continue to stick around, wonder why...

Gisteron wrote:

Zenchi wrote: ... now you're going to throw a fit because he denied you the satisfaction of acknowledging your side of things?[/colore]

Actually, no, if you'd read the post you just quoted unabridged, you'll notice how i responded to more or less every bit he said. It's not like I feel entitled to personal validation either; Ryu ignored my response just as much as he ignored Khaos' and Kyrin's. Now, I may have never formally learned how to have a healthy discussion or debate, but where I come from that usually entails a back and forth, a dialogue. If you find that this is a trollish expectation I have of discussion partners, I can well live with that. Of course nobody is actually required to oblige. I'm just pointing to the irony of implying that the other side is the closed-minded and self-centered one, while one oneself keeps preaching on as if there is nothing to be discussed, nothing to be questioned.

I dont necessarily disagree with the points (some of them) you've made, you make a good arguement, but there are better ways to go about proving your point without getting all emotional about it, making your side of the debate sound like an attack because you disagree. Im not asking anyone to kiss a$$...

I didn't ignore anyone's posts. I simply pointed out perspectives that were contrary to some...

I'm not against science, nor am I for blindly accepting the fantastic...I am open to both...some seem completely closed off to the idea that the fantastic MAY be possible...I am not...it may or may not be possible...however i'm not going to belittle nor diminish someone else's perspective as some seem intent on doing...if someone else believes in it and are not causing harm with that belief then what is the problem?...as I said in the op, I know some believe in the possiblility and some don't...and I don't recall ever mentioning magic?.....

RyuJin wrote: I didn't ignore anyone's posts. I simply pointed out perspectives that were contrary to some...

I'm not against science, nor am I for blindly accepting the fantastic...I am open to both...some seem completely closed off to the idea that the fantastic MAY be possible...I am not...it may or may not be possible...however i'm not going to belittle nor diminish someone else's perspective as some seem intent on doing...if someone else believes in it and are not causing harm with that belief then what is the problem?...as I said in the op, I know some believe in the possiblility and some don't...and I don't recall ever mentioning magic?.....

On the contrary, its not that some are saying they don't or wont believe. Instead I and others are taking the default position of not accepting a claim without evidence to support that claim. And in this case the claim that PK may be possible is an extraordinary claim and thus requires extraordinary proof. If I said my sister was in the garage you may take me at my word, however is I said I had an invisible pink unicorn in the garage you would most likely demand extraordinary evidence be provided to support my claim.

And yet to date, after a myriad of studies and tests and experiments and scientific investigation of such claims as the existence of invisible pink unicorns or PK, no substantial proof or evidence has ever been found to support the existence of either. James Randy has has even had a million bucks on the line for quite a few years and, even though many have tried, none have been able to claim it. And yes I know that a default stance is typically that the "sensitives" don't do what they do for the money, but just think of the charities they could help, not only with their gift but also the money they could get from proving PK exists. Needless to say I don't buy these bogus positions either.

As for bringing up the subject of magic, I would respectfully disagree with you. I think you brought it up when you first mentioned PK.

I just reread all my posts in this thread and none mention magic...a post made by jestor mentions magic (or magician), but not a post by me...

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

RyuJin wrote: At one point it was "impossible" for 1 object to be in 2 places at the same time...then they achieved it with the hadron collider...

At one point it was "impossible" to bring someone back from the dead...then we developed defibrillators...

Imagine the impossibilities we'll overcome in the distant future...

Actually quantum particles have always has the ability to be in two places at once, in fact many places, called superposition. However I have no idea what this has to do with the collider as it is a particle accelerator/smasher and has nothing to do with bi-location. It was the rigors of science that allowed us to build things like the collider to discover what was already in operation and thus better understand our universe.

Don't 'particles' exist only because we try to measure them, and when said to exist only do so in clouds of probabilities? Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science... if someone can do TK/PK I'd really want them to apply try to apply science to it! New discoveries would be one of the main sources of expanding the frontiers of science, by allowing new tools to be created to look deeper/further/beyond what was previously considered to be the limits.

RyuJin wrote: I just reread all my posts in this thread and none mention magic...a post made by jestor mentions magic (or magician), but not a post by me...

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -- Arthur C. Clarke

When I say magic I mean any power of apparently influencing or forecasting events by using mysterious or supernatural forces. TK/PK falls under that.

Adder wrote: Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science...

It does, but nothing discussed here is strictly beyond science. The domain of science is the set of all theoretically observable things and the things that can be deduced from observations. These limits were never narrower in the past than they are today and can by definition never grow broader either. We are not differentiating between claims that were unfalsified at some point and those that were, we are differentiating between claims that are in principle falsifiable and those that are in principle not. It is not a matter of time until the latter become scientific.

And on that note, let us please pick either one or the other and stick with it. TK/PK cannot be simultaneously something one can experience or perform and beyond experience and performance at the same time. Nothing we agree to consider real is this internally inconsistent. If magic powers do manifest in reality in detectable (i.e. identifiable) ways, we'd expect to have an instance of that at hand. If they don't, that's all that needs be said. Which is it?

What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

But maybe that is not what is being said Off course we have all had that weird feeling in our stomach knowing that something is wrong , i blame that on a lot of shit being wrong in the world , but knowing exactly what is going to happen next is another thing , there is more between heaven and earth , and mostly its our imagination. But why get so upset over anything like TK ? Its not that we are going to knive anyone from a distance are we , i mean i have only seen someone move a piece of paper loll ? Or is it the fear of the unknown ? Or are we trying indeed to comfort ourselves with the idea there is more ? Is there more? Its scary shit really.....yeah thats what it is

RyuJin wrote: I just reread all my posts in this thread and none mention magic...a post made by jestor mentions magic (or magician), but not a post by me...

It was a joke of sorts. I was implying that Pk is magic. In its purest sense that's what it equates to. I could claim to have magical powers and I would have just as much basis for that claim as you have for claiming you have some sort of PK ability. So when you say PK, I hear magic.

Adder wrote: Don't 'particles' exist only because we try to measure them, and when said to exist only do so in clouds of probabilities? Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science... if someone can do TK/PK I'd really want them to apply try to apply science to it! New discoveries would be one of the main sources of expanding the frontiers of science, by allowing new tools to be created to look deeper/further/beyond what was previously considered to be the limits.

What is this thing that exists beyond science that is not anti-science? How can a thing exist beyond something and yet be a part of it? That makes no sense. Either a thing is an object of the set or it is not. It cant be both, that defies the laws of logic. Either we believe in Science the provable, repeatable, falsifiable aspect of our reality that is based in unchangeable laws of Physics or we believe in magic where no aspect of our reality can be accepted as valid because we might not have existed a few seconds ago or the the laws of physics could be changed at will, thus rendering our entire perception of reality a lie and we as a species irrelevant.

In any case, as I have said before, there have been many many attempts to put science to PK and every single one in every single instance has failed. There is no medium nor mechanism that has ever been discovered within the electromagnetic spectrum that has ever been shown to have the ability to defy the force of gravity as a component of the natural evolution of an organic organism. Nor has there even been presented the slightest evidence that our brains have the capacity to somehow function at a quantum level and thus directly manipulate the particles of condensed matter in such a way as to remotely move objects, or communicate among minds etc.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

RyuJin wrote: I just reread all my posts in this thread and none mention magic...a post made by jestor mentions magic (or magician), but not a post by me...

It was a joke of sorts. I was implying that Pk is magic. In its purest sense that's what it equates to. I could claim to have magical powers and I would have just as much basis for that claim as you have for claiming you have some sort of PK ability. So when you say PK, I hear magic.

Assumptions assumptions.... :lol:

What i have trouble with is stating that something is not there because you cannot measure it , you cannot measure my love but it is still there ?

Yet, you would have no problem stating it IS there because you cannot measure it?

:huh:

As for love, while I suppose you cannot measure it, yet, you can express it in a measurable way.

However, that does not apply in any real consistent or measurable way for TK/PK

Now, if you say it cannot be measured and yet claim it can be demonstrated, then you are saying it can be measured in some way in an observable sense( Moving things with your mind should be a measurable instance, not unlike hugging, for love, or a kiss), not unlike love.

Yet, this is not the case, and it hasnt gotten any better at making it so

Just because something might be said to exist beyond science doesn't mean it is anti-science... if someone can do TK/PK I'd really want them to apply try to apply science to it! New discoveries would be one of the main sources of expanding the frontiers of science, by allowing new tools to be created to look deeper/further/beyond what was previously considered to be the limits.

Yet, there is nothing to measure for science, or to create tools for.

You know, because those that actually CAN do it in a big way wont, for a myriad of excuses, money, fame, or science, which is strange no matter how you slice it.

Seriously, you can state how something can be beyond science, but in this case, there is nothing to measure past hearsay in he first place.

New frontiers? Show that there is such a frontier.

Even were there not tools to measure it, a display, a consistant repeatable display would be enough for any scientist to put thousands of hours in trying to find ways to measure, and develop it, or ways to develop it.

A drove of real scientists would.

You say its possible, I say "Ok show it to me"

Aaaaannnd you cant.

I do so wonder what people coming into my BJJ class say to such a sales pitch.

"Show me it works"

"Sorry, I cant, and its beyond perception, but you will certainly be able to defend yourself with it."

No....That dont metal.