Taoism

Rickie wrote: Religion/philosphy/belief system? Call it what you want, I've read it's called all those and dates back to the 4000BC. Can anyone place dates on what you've posted

Bump

I had a look about dates of Taoism being 4000 years old. Ancient Chinese calendars, apparently unreliably, indicated that the Yellow Emperor lived in around 4000 BC, but the date used today was calculated to by a Jesuit Martino Martini in the 17th century.

It looks like Taoism itself might go back to Huang Ti , the Yellow Emperor, who reigned China from about 2696 to 2598 BC.

Going even further, the I Ching is said to have come from Fu Xi who reigned around 2800 to 2737 BC. The I Ching is a Chinese divination system based on nature and might have represented a very early influence on Taoism.

this information is from "the roots of wisdom" fifth edition

Here’s the list of dates for religious and philosophical events

Bce = before current era, ce = current era
2680-2565 bce great pyramids built
Ca 1500 bce moses leads Hebrew exodus
Ca 1500-450 bce Vedas, earliest literature of india composed
Ca 1000 bce chavin culture in peru; olmec culture in mexico
Ca 605 bce lao tzu (founder of taoism)
Ca 600 bce Egyptian book of the dead
Ca 563 bce Siddhartha guatama (Buddha)
Ca 551 bce k’ung fu-tzu (confucious)
Ca 490 bce Protagoras
Ca 470 bce Socrates
Ca 428 bce plato
Ca 384 bce aristotle
Ca 4th century bce perictyone/ diotima of manitea
Ca 29 ce death of jesus
Ca 45 pan chao
Ca 70 romans destroy temple at Jerusalem
Ca 100-300 Buddhism spreads to china
Ca 325 council of Nicaea
Ca 327 macrina
Ca 354 Augustine of hippo
Ca 355 hypatia of Alexandria
Ca 475 fall of roman empire
Ca 529 st. benedict founds monestary at monte casino
Ca 550 buddhism enters japan
Ca 632 muhammad founds islam
Ca 870 al farabi
Ca 1033 anselm of Canterbury
Ca 1098 hildegard of bingen
Ca 1100-1500 islam spreads to eastern Europe, india, and southeast asia
Ca 1126 averroes
Ca 1225 thomas Aquinas
Ca 1347 catherine of siena
1517 martin luther begins protestant reformation
1543 copernican theory of solar system published
1588 thomas hobbes
1596 rene Descartes
1631 anne finch, viscountess Conway
1632 baruch benedict de Spinoza/john locke
1646 gottfried Wilhelm Leibniz
1650 sor juana ines de la cruz
1665 isaac newton formulates law of gravity
1685 george Berkeley
1711 david hume
1712 jean-jacques rousseau
1724 immanuel kant
1751-1772 publication of French encyclopedie, grand attempt to summarize all rational knowledge
1759 mary Wollstonecraft
1748 jeremy bentham
1770 g.w.f. hegel
1775 friedrich von schelling
1776 u.s. declaration of independence
1788 arthur Schopenhauer
1789 french revolution
1806 john stuart mill
1807 harriet taylor mill
1808-1826 latin American revolutions overthrow European rule
1813 soren Kierkegaard
1815 elizabeth cady Stanton
1818 karl marx
1820 susan b. Anthony
1823 clarisse coignet
1839 charles sanders peirce
1842 william james
1844 friedrich Wilhelm Nietzsche
1859 john dewey/Charles Darwin publishes theory of evolution
1860 charlotte perkins gilman
1868 w.e.b. dubois
1872 bertrand Russell
1889 martin Heidegger/Ludwig Wittgenstein
1905 jean-paul Sartre/albert Einstein publishes special theory of relativity
1908 simone de Beauvoir
1921 john rawles
1925 malcolm x
1929 martin luther king jr
1938 robert nozick
1953 cornel west

"Individuals in search of the truth can benefit the most, not by grasping or striving, but by means of a patient, accepting focus on natural patterns and influences that are worthy of being emulated"

"Idiot's Guide to Taoism" by Toropov & Hanson

I'm loving this Taoism stuff!

I was very lucky as a child to be read "the tao of pooh" by Benjamin Hoff. Its a very simple book explaining taoist principles through the life of Winnie the Pooh and friends. I went on to discover the Tao Te Ching but still pick up The Tao of Pooh every now and then. I would recommend it to anybody. Tao is a very mysterious and beautiful principle Enjoy discovering it.

Once upon a time in ancient China, there was a sage who taught a group of disciples at a remote monastery. They studied teachings from many sources of wisdom, even some that originated from distant lands.

One imporant topic they delved into was human suffering. The disciples were taken by the concept and could not stop talking about it. “Suffering is unavoidable,” one of them declared while others nodded in agreement. “Birth, aging, sickness and death... we suffer through all of them, not to mention the setbacks, heartaches, annoyances and so many other causes of misery.”

This talk had an effect on all of them. They no longer went about their daily activities with good cheer. There was a sense of growing dissatisfaction, and some began to complain about everything.

The sage observed this and decided it was time for a Tao lesson. He gathered the disciples together and said: “I see quite a few moody expressions among you recently. Perhaps we can brighten the mood by taking a break. The nearby lake is particularly beautiful this time of the year. Let us go there.”

The lake was indeed beautiful, filled with pure and pristine water from streams of melted snow. The disciples paid little attention to this natural beauty, for their minds were still preoccupied. The sage knew this would be the case, so he was not surprised when one them finally broke the silence: “Master, what is the Tao perspective on suffering?”

The sage brought out a cup he had prepared, and showed it to all the disciples. They could see that it was half filled with salt. He handed it to the disciple who asked the question and said: “Fill this cup with water from the lake, and stir it well to dissolve all the salt.”

The disciple did as the sage ordered. It took a while, but eventually he was able to get all the salt dissolved. “Good,” the sage approved. “Now take a sip and tell us how it tastes.”

The disciple took a sip and immediately spit it out. “Master, it is much too salty. It tastes horrible!”

“Of course,” the sage smiled. “The salt is just like the suffering we experience in life. It can be extremely difficult to swallow. Even a little sip is horrible.”

“So that is the Tao perspective, Master? That suffering is horrible?” The disciple was puzzled.

Instead of answering, the sage brought out another cup. The disciple looked at it and was startled. The second cup was filled to the brim with salt. As bad as the first cup was, this could only be worse. Would he have to drink it too? He did not know what to think.

“Pour the salt in this cup into the lake,” the sage instructed. “Then use the empty cup to scoop up water from the lake and drink. Drink it all.”

The disciple did as he was told while the other disciples watched him. When he was done, everyone wanted to know: “Well? How was it?”

“Refreshing!” The disciple smiled. “I was a bit thirsty from sipping the first cup. Now my thirst is completely quenched and I feel great!”

“Do you see the difference?” The sage could tell the disciples were beginning to get it. “The ordinary mind is like the first cup. To such a mind, suffering can be almost unbearable. Even a sip of it is horrible, just like you saw for yourselves. This is why the natural response to suffering, for most people, is moodiness and complaints.”

“The Tao mind is like this beautiful lake,” the sage waved his arms at everything around them. “If you can expand your mind into the great dimensions of the Tao, then suffering for you will be like salt poured into the lake. The salt is still the same, but your experience of it will be quite different. Even if you end up with more suffering in your life than other people, it will have no power over you, just as more salt has no effect on the lake. The water remains as pure, pristine and refreshing as ever. Now that is the Tao perspective on suffering!”

"A drunken man who falls out of a cart, though he may suffer, does not die. His bones are the same as other people's; but he meets his accident in a different way. His spirit is in a condition of security. He is not concious of riding in the cart; neither is he concious of falling out of it. Ideas of life, death, fear and the like cannot penetrate his breast; and so he does not suffer from contact with objective existence. If such security is to be got from wine, how much more is to be got from the Tao ?"

~ Chuang Tzu

Rickie The Grey wrote: "Individuals in search of the truth can benefit the most, not by grasping or striving, but by means of a patient, accepting focus on natural patterns and influences that are worthy of being emulated"

"Idiot's Guide to Taoism" by Toropov & Hanson

I'm loving this Taoism stuff!

With no disrespect or intentions to start a rumble I'm not seeing a big difference between Jedism and Taoism except for some substantive choice of words?

Daoism is not a unified religious practice but is as varied a religion as Islam or Christianity. Over the past two millennia it has changed drastically and evolved into a diverse set of beliefs and practices. Starting out as an indigenous animist spirituality practiced by virtually every social class, in the 5th century bce the first collection of more ancient oral sayings was written down and assembled in the Daodejing for the literate elite and attributed to the legendary figure, Laozi. Today, Daoist priests perform for their congregation the same practices as any other clergyman (rites of passage, funerals, and weddings, etc). A Daoist can and will often share her/his spirituality and practices with tenets of Confucism and Buddhism without ever feeling any one of them is incompatible.

At the same time, there are Taoists who abhor Buddhist and confucian thinking. That's just how varied it is. lol.

I agree with you Rickie the Grey, there is very little difference in the basic philosophy of jedi and tao. Apart from the words we use to describe it, and if studying tao has taught me anything it's that words do not really suffice.

Alexandre Orion wrote: "A drunken man who falls out of a cart, though he may suffer, does not die. His bones are the same as other people's; but he meets his accident in a different way. His spirit is in a condition of security. He is not concious of riding in the cart; neither is he concious of falling out of it. Ideas of life, death, fear and the like cannot penetrate his breast; and so he does not suffer from contact with objective existence. If such security is to be got from wine, how much more is to be got from the Tao ?"

~ Chuang Tzu

So, if you're not in Tao, get drunk :whistle:
by the way, does humor belongs in Tao ?

What you said was funny. So why not?

Andy Spalding wrote: You only really need the first part of the Tao.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

After reading this you might as well close the book and head out for a walk because the rest is just saying the same things in different, equally vague, words.

If you are looking for something with less Eastern wisdom(vagueary) you should look in to stoicism. Many of the same concepts presented for a western mind

i agree with andy. it reads as so much vagueness to me, which i guess is the point. in one of my last chapter reviews of biocentrism, after dr lanza mentions eastern religions again as clearly more favorable than western ones, i wondered:

'what it is about Westerners becoming enamored with Eastern religions. My guess is that the Eastern religions have the flavor of the new, the mysterious and the unknowable. ‘This religion/philosophy/whatever must be awesome because no one can understand it’ kind of thing.'

i started writing my own little taoisms a little while ago, after seeing the tao quoted all over the place here. my favorite one i posted, about the catfish. equally vague and meaningless as what i have been reading. o, i know, i know: 'desolous, thats the point.'

Desolous wrote: ...after dr lanza mentions eastern religions again as clearly more favorable than western ones, i wondered:

'what it is about Westerners becoming enamored with Eastern religions. My guess is that the Eastern religions have the flavor of the new, the mysterious and the unknowable. ‘This religion/philosophy/whatever must be awesome because no one can understand it’ kind of thing.'

By 'western religions' I presume, as most do, that you mean 'Christianity/Islam/Judaism' + their various forms. Even though Paganism/Wicca are also arguably 'western religions' but they just don't get the same level of publicity...

But with regards to the former three religions, they are typically about submitting yourself to a higher power (or at least are warped into that by some churches) "OBEY US AND BE SAVED!"

Whereas when people make the comparison to Eastern religions it is typically with the view that they are all about You yourself rather than submittance to a higher power.

It is down to the differences in philosophy based, a lot in the west, on Descarte (the world is a clock we can understand by taking it apart) as opposed to the holistic views you find in Eastern thought.

It is a good idea actually to read through it. Seeing as how they are small books, why not take them on your walk with you ?

Could we see your "taoisms", Des ?

You know, neither Lao Tzu, Chuange Tzu nor Lieh Tzu "copyrighted" anything at all. Some translators in recent years, say - the last couple of centuries- may have, but well ... screw them. I wouldn't say they have the flavour of the "new" (that is for those into exoticism), but they are relatively free of tyrannical dogmas - probably because they had enough tyranny in other areas.

As long as you are advocating effortlessness, non-resistance, non-interference, non-expectation and thus the purest, truest vision of love from within, your stuff may very well be every bit as good as the stuff dug out of old China.



Of course, if it is all about control issues and defending the right to kill people, we'll take the piss out of you ...

:laugh:

Alexandre Orion wrote: Could we see your "taoisms", Des ?

...

Of course, if it is all about control issues and defending the right to kill people, we'll take the piss out of you ...

:laugh:

no need to take my piss. and i Have read them, at various points throughout my life. in fact, one of my earliest non-childrens books was on buddhism, which of course from there led to the exploration of other eastern paths, much to the consternation of my catholic mother and secret joy of my agnostic scientist dad. i revisit the tao from time to time. i dont have control issues, nor do i think i have the right to kill someone.

heres the one i posted a while ago:

'Woman goes fishing in a river near her hometown. She hooks giant catfish, obviously larger and older than she, for she was quite small and slender. After wrestling the catfish ashore, she exclaims, 'wow, you're huge! you must be the oldest thing in the river!'

Catfish eyes her lazily and says something in a language the woman doesn't understand, because catfish can't speak english.'

MCSH wrote: I read it once, but I just read, and passed...

I should go and study it again

If you can contact Alexandre Orion, he can help you a lot... he told me he studied it since the past 17 years (lol, same as my age!!!)

You could check out Zhuangzi's writing on the Tao if you haven't! I always recommend him to those that want a bit of a lighter start than the Tao teh Ching. He is a lot more fun to read than the Tao teh Ching and less enigmatic. He's also discretely humorous and mocking in his tone which makes it even more fun to read!

Oh, there's always the Tao of Pooh too! This is how I was really introduced to Taoism and its even more fun to read than Chuang Tzu/Zhuangzi

I've been reading the Tao Te Ching since I was 17, which was approximately 12 years ago. It is one of the books that I readily accepted because it resonated with my inner voice. It's for this same reason that I joined this community because it closely resembles Taoism.

How does the sea become the king of all streams?
Because it lies lower than they!
Hence it is the king of all streams.

Therefore, the Sage reigns over the people by
humbling himself in speech;
And leads the people by putting himself behind.