Taoism

Just before registering here I started to read up on Taoism. Seems to me there is a lot of force type beliefs that are fundimental to Taoism. Has anyone studied this much?

Many here have “studied” the Tao Te Ching and Taoism, or soon will.

Alexandre Orion has done an extensive report on the Tao T Ching in his journal… perhaps you could pick his brain on it!

I read it once, but I just read, and passed...

I should go and study it again

If you can contact Alexandre Orion, he can help you a lot... he told me he studied it since the past 17 years (lol, same as my age!!!)

Taoism is beautiful because it doesn't claim to know anything. That's the best part. It acknowledges that answers are beyond the "word" and that it takes careful pointing to find it.

You're correct in that there is a lot of resonance with Taoist beliefs here. But then again, not everyone feels that way. That's the beauty of a syncretistic faith

However if you wish (as many of us do) to study Taoism with a Jedi perspective, there's a version of the Tao Te Ching in the library that might help you out:
http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Training--Library/24989-81-JEDIISM-RITE-SPIRITUAL-LITERATURE--THE-FIRST-BOOK-OF-JEDIISM#24989

You only really need the first part of the Tao.

The tao that can be told
is not the eternal Tao
The name that can be named
is not the eternal Name.

The unnamable is the eternally real.
Naming is the origin
of all particular things.

Free from desire, you realize the mystery.
Caught in desire, you see only the manifestations.

Yet mystery and manifestations
arise from the same source.
This source is called darkness.

Darkness within darkness.
The gateway to all understanding.

After reading this you might as well close the book and head out for a walk because the rest is just saying the same things in different, equally vague, words.

If you are looking for something with less Eastern wisdom(vagueary) you should look in to stoicism. Many of the same concepts presented for a western mind

And, although not a professed stoic himself, Marcus Aurelius had much stoic influence in his meditations (since he was taught stoicism as a philosophy in private schooling).

Andy is correct. The first part says everything that it needs to say.

The first part does indeed say a lot about the Force and its nature but the rest of the book offers insights into behaviour, conduct, connections to the Force, and guidance for those that are in a position of responsibility. As such, it is unwise to dismiss it so readily.

I found a lot to reflect on while reading. One of the things was about exercising. The idea of slow rhythmic movements, which makes me think of Tai chi. Since I've read that I've tried it a few times a day. I'll keep you posted.

Then there is the idea of staying in harmony of your life and life, we are a spirit dwelling in a body and you are what you think. Stuff to reflect on. These are things that have wondered through my internal abyss from time to time. Good stuff.

Ok, so here is the essence of Taoist thought and practice summed up in a couple paragraphs,

Suppose you and I have an argument. Suppose you win and I lose. Does that mean you’re really right and I’m wrong? Suppose I win and you lose. Does that mean I’m really right and you’re wrong? Is one of us right and the other wrong? Are we both right and both wrong? If we can’t figure it out ourselves, others must be totally in the dark, so who could we get to settle it? We could get someone who agrees with you, but if they agree with you how could they decide who’s right and wrong? We could get someone who agrees with me, but if they agree with me how could they decide? We could get someone who disagrees with both of us, but if they disagree with both of us how could they decide? We could get someone who agree with both of us, but if they agree with both of us how could they decide? Not I nor you nor anyone else can know who is right and who wrong. So what do we do? Wait for someone else to come along and decide?

What is meant by an “accord reaching to the very limits of heaven”? I’d say: right isn’t merely right; so isn’t merely so. If right is truly right, then not-right is so far from being right that there’s no argument. And if so is truly so, not-so is so far from being so that there’s no argument. When voices in transformation wait for each other to decide, it’s like waiting for nothing. “An according reaching to the very limits of heaven:” because it’s endless, we live clear through all the years. Forget the years, forget Duty: move in the boundless, and the boundless becomes your home.

y

Andy Spalding wrote:

Suppose you and I have an argument.

y

What would be the point of determining who won?

Mark Anjuu wrote: The first part does indeed say a lot about the Force and its nature but the rest of the book offers insights into behaviour, conduct, connections to the Force, and guidance for those that are in a position of responsibility. As such, it is unwise to dismiss it so readily.

I never said dismiss it. The rest of book is also cultural and not significant for somebody who is not looking to be a Taoist.

IF somebody is looking for behavioral guidelines, cross-culture connections, status responsibility, etc, then YES! Read it.

But, if I am doing research about religions to find out what they think about the Force as an abstract concept, then I stop after the first 5 pages.

I studied the Tao Te Ching during my Apprenticeship, and again as a Knight.

I don't see it as an ultimate guide to all things Jedi, but I believe it to offer a better glimpse into the true nature of the Force than the limitations of our language usually allow us to express, and I believe that the wisdom contained within it is worthy of much time and consideration.

Lao Tse wrote: Noble man stay away from conflict, the inferior person always disputes.
Noble man does not need virtue, the inferior person needs virtue.

People fail to realize the Tao, because the mind is always moved by many improper emotions.

Emotions overcome the mind, means the spirit is disturbed.
When spirit is disturbed, then one adheres to the improper things.
When adheres to the improper things, Then desires and pretension takes place.
As desires and pretension takes place, then annoyance and anguish are richened.

Improper desires, annoyance and anguish,
Always pressure and bother the body and the mind.

Sounds pretty Jedi to me. Taoism is one of things I need to spend more time on.

Before attempting to tackle the Tao Te Ching, the Book of Five Rings or any of the other Eastern philosophies, I would start by reading…

Bushido - The Warriors Code

Just my Opinion.

I've read through the Tao Te Ching several times, and I refer back to it a lot. There's a lot of different translations of it though, so I would recommend this one . It's more poetic, yet it is easier to understand in its simplicity.

After that you might be interested in the Hua Hu Ching. It's much easier to understand in its direct language but is, IMO, much deeper. (my signature is from that book)

The Tao Te Ching was not written for Taoists, but for a border guard of Chu (perhaps) ...

Lao Tzu wrote it because he was asked to ...

One can read it as one reads a philosophical text -- and not 'get' it.

One can read it as a religious treatise -- and not 'believe' it.

One can read it as an encyclopaedia -- and not 'learn' anything.

One can read it as a lyric poem -- and not be 'moved' by it.

So, put it away -- then you 'get' it.

Laugh at it -- then you 'believe' it.

Forget it -- then you've 'learnt' it.

Look at the World, and at the heavens -- then you may be 'moved' by it ...



Tao Te Ching 41 :

When a superior man hears of the Tao,
he immediately begins to embody it.
When an average man hears of the Tao,
he half believes it, half doubts it.
When a foolish man hears of the Tao,
he laughs out loud.
If he didn't laugh,
it wouldn't be the Tao. Thus it is said:
The path into the light seems dark,
the path forward seems to go back,
the direct path seems long,
true power seems weak,
true purity seems tarnished,
true steadfastness seems changeable,
true clarity seems obscure,
the greatest seems unsophisticated,
the greatest love seems indifferent,
the greatest wisdom seems childish. The Tao is nowhere to be found.
Yet it nourishes and completes all things.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Before attempting to tackle the Tao Te Ching, the Book of Five Rings or any of the other Eastern philosophies, I would start by reading…

I started with many encyclopedia entries and articles about eastern religions and philosophies (when I was single-digit years old :laugh: ). The first "real" book I read in this vein tho was, Hagakure.

Then I read the Tao Te Ching, and I've gotta tell you, my first time thru it didn't do a whole lot for me. They don't say "read" about Taoism tho, do they...they say "study" taoism...and there's a reason for the distinction.

Is there any religion older than Daoistism?

Yes...

Buddhism...partly because it actually came first, and partly because Taoism, isn't actually a religion...it's a philosophy (of course some people do attribute religious significance to it, but that only shows the extent to which those people don't "get it" lol)