Cultural Appropriation

Getting back on topic about what is appropriate for cultures, this is the kind of thing that as a Native American, a practicing traditionalist, and a Cultural Anthropology Professor I find extremely disturbing.

http://www.weavingunity.com/healing-sweat-lodges.html

This person has no right to these ceremonies, has no traditional training, and is charging. Selling the sacred is wrong on all levels. This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.

what is the solution?

In the UK and in Europe some things have 'protected status', usually food or drink.. Perhaps things like sweat lodges and other 'important cultural aspects' could have something similar... Prevent inexperienced replication.

Jedi_Roz wrote: Getting back on topic about what is appropriate for cultures, this is the kind of thing that as a Native American, a practicing traditionalist, and a Cultural Anthropology Professor I find extremely disturbing.

http://www.weavingunity.com/healing-sweat-lodges.html

This person has no right to these ceremonies, has no traditional training, and is charging. Selling the sacred is wrong on all levels. This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.

Not only that, but fake sweat lodges by people untrained in them have a body count: http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-arthur-ray-sentenced-sweat-lodge-deaths/story?id=14989777

OB1Shinobi wrote: what is the solution?

I wish I had an answer. Perhaps something like Edan suggested would at least stop the Youtube Shamans from holding what they think is something they have experience in. Perhaps when religion has no money to be made in it?

steamboat28 wrote:

Jedi_Roz wrote: Getting back on topic about what is appropriate for cultures, this is the kind of thing that as a Native American, a practicing traditionalist, and a Cultural Anthropology Professor I find extremely disturbing.

http://www.weavingunity.com/healing-sweat-lodges.html

This person has no right to these ceremonies, has no traditional training, and is charging. Selling the sacred is wrong on all levels. This is becoming a bigger and bigger problem.

Not only that, but fake sweat lodges by people untrained in them have a body count: http://abcnews.go.com/US/james-arthur-ray-sentenced-sweat-lodge-deaths/story?id=14989777

Very true, this has happened many many times. Awhile back Chief Arvol Looking Horse even asked to ban Whites from Ceremonies for these very reasons. It turned into a huge backlash but I understood what he was trying to get at.



It is a huge debate we have in Indian Country.

its the financial angle that i find myself aligned with - to be honest its not even an issue of culture to me but the idea that spirituality is not for sale in general

its my view that as a general rule, enrichment in spiritual matters is a human practice and should be viewed as something to be shared with anyone who is willing to put in the work of learning and doing

i dont support keeping the bible or the vedas closed hidden away so that only one special group gets to benefit

but i disagree with charging money for bible study or a meditaton group and using spirituality as a commercial venture

that being said, its been commercialism which has made many forms of spirituality available to me so i see a value where some dont

the difficulty that you face in the example you give is that even if such a measure were enacted the law only has so much effective power in a situation like this

from what i read the payment system they have is formated or languaged as volutary donations to cover cost

and on that score i have to say that format of payment is not only legally unassailable but it should remainthat way

being able to accept donations at free events is not something youre/we're going to be able to legally change

and really thats a good thing because obviously its a good format that works in everyones benefit generally speaking

also, training or no training, anybody can start a fire and throw a canvass over a frame

if youre ok with protecting the TERM

eg no one can call what they do a "traditional sweat lodge" or maybe even just "sweat lodge" without the approval of some native organization which you guys/gals would have to agree on

thats legally plausible but it doesnt prevent the actual phenomena of replicating their understanding of the sweat lodge experience and opening it up to voluntary contribution level participation

then you have the option of opening up your native practices to outsiders but im guessing there is a vocal portion of your community who feels that thats the problem in the first place - that they are native practices and should not be given away or passed around to anyone who comes a'calling

that being said, it would allow you the ability to retain functional control of the rites, as well as create a platform which could be used to educate the public on all sorts of issues facing your communities and culture/s today as well as build relatonships with non natives that are founded on really healthy positive experiences and that elevate the awesomeness of everyone, really

but i assume i am not telling you anything you havent already discussed, so at this point i dont know what else to consider or what to suggest or further comment

if i am missing some important information in this then please educate me, i am sincere in my desire to help to at least brainstorm to find an acceptable solution

They say some degree's are better then others. So considering people's time costs money, I can imagine 'training' in something spiritual could be a paid service, and like any other training provider you assess it's actual worth based on it's capacity for genuine information and practices, not just the cheapest provider. I think the only thing which could be enforced is claiming something which isn't true, which goes hand in hand and reinforces that concept of something being genuine or an authority on a topic. So I don't think we'll ever be able to stop people selling their own experiences/beliefs if they want to, but we can question the authenticity - its that authenticity which is the measure of value to me.

OB1Shinobi wrote: its the financial angle that i find myself aligned with - to be honest its not even an issue of culture to me but the idea that spirituality is not for sale in general

its my view that as a general rule, enrichment in spiritual matters is a human practice and should be viewed as something to be shared with anyone who is willing to put in the work of learning and doing

i dont support keeping the bible or the vedas closed hidden away so that only one special group gets to benefit

but i disagree with charging money for bible study or a meditaton group and using spirituality as a commercial venture

that being said, its been commercialism which has made many forms of spirituality available to me so i see a value where some dont

the difficulty that you face in the example you give is that even if such a measure were enacted the law only has so much effective power in a situation like this

from what i read the payment system they have is formated or languaged as volutary donations to cover cost

and on that score i have to say that format of payment is not only legally unassailable but it should remainthat way

being able to accept donations at free events is not something youre/we're going to be able to legally change

and really thats a good thing because obviously its a good format that works in everyones benefit generally speaking

also, training or no training, anybody can start a fire and throw a canvass over a frame

if youre ok with protecting the TERM

eg no one can call what they do a "traditional sweat lodge" or maybe even just "sweat lodge" without the approval of some native organization which you guys/gals would have to agree on

thats legally plausible but it doesnt prevent the actual phenomena of replicating their understanding of the sweat lodge experience and opening it up to voluntary contribution level participation

then you have the option of opening up your native practices to outsiders but im guessing there is a vocal portion of your community who feels that thats the problem in the first place - that they are native practices and should not be given away or passed around to anyone who comes a'calling

that being said, it would allow you the ability to retain functional control of the rites, as well as create a platform which could be used to educate the public on all sorts of issues facing your communities and culture/s today as well as build relatonships with non natives that are founded on really healthy positive experiences and that elevate the awesomeness of everyone, really

but i assume i am not telling you anything you havent already discussed, so at this point i dont know what else to consider or what to suggest or further comment

if i am missing some important information in this then please educate me, i am sincere in my desire to help to at least brainstorm to find an acceptable solution

Sure. Here goes. Lets say I invite everyone here to a sweat lodge. Open ended. Come as you are. I mean everyone from the Council on down to guests, Knights, Apprentices, etc.

I ask for nothing but in the invite I state that the event is a potluck. Bring what you can and if nothing is what you can bring that is fine too.

I have given no further details except a place to meet, bring something to pass if able and that's it.

My husband and my friends are there as well. My husband tends the fire, my friends gather the stones for the sweat, We have part of the Jedi clergy lead a prayer or two, I make sure every one is comfortable and make sure everyone is drinking water. More people (friends of mine) outside are singing/drumming. We go through a great meditation in the sweat lodge, everyone is comfortable and has a powerful experience. After the ceremony I again make sure everyone has plenty of water, my husband tends the fire, the stone gathers cool the stones and the drumming circle has changed from drums to flute music. We sit around a large bond fire, enjoying the potluck and telling stories. Everyone goes home feeling energized and rejuvenated.

Great stuff right? Except one person who thought the whole thing was cheesy and or they could do a better job and probably make money off of it. So they take that one experience, dress up a shack in the back of their property, maybe even put some dream catchers out and wear some seagull feathers and then charge people for a authentic sweat lodge. A disaster later and I find out and get really upset because what I shared was a community event. What that person was doing was looking to make a buck or one hundred.

I didn't tell you I had prepared that lodge location weeks in advance, I had a holy man there blessing the grounds. My husband had to go through special rites to be allowed to be a fire keeper. The stone gatherers had to be taught how to use those stones and when to allow the sweat to continue at a slow but steady pace. I had to go through years of training to recognize when people are okay, when they need guidance to keep them grounded or water to drink. The drummers learned songs and rhythms to help people stay focused, aware and not wandering. Afterwards the wood collected has been waiting for a sacred event to burn for it was a grandfather tree that fell down in the winter. The food was all gifted to creator and we shared everything together and to make sure that no one drifted off that flute music continued to keep us grounded as we shared the meal.

That is all part of the cultural training. Perhaps I offered this to everyone to help myself become a better spiritual leader. I say this however asking for ANY kind of money (regardless of the bs they state on their website to collect donations) is wrong in Indian Country. Our people take care of each other. In the scenario I described I said bring food if you can, if not that's okay too, there will be plenty for all. There always is. In this scenario this was my gift and my responsibility as the water pourer to make sure this happened safely. All of the details are required to be taken care of by me. Not the people coming to the event. That is the difference between Native philosophy and consumerism. In Indian Country we share the ceremony with the community; in consumerism you are paying to be entertained.

Sacred rites are NEVER for sale. They are a gift. If they cannot be treated that way then people do not deserve them nor have the right to perform them.

And yes, if I ever held a sweat you all would be welcome. Even the folks across the big ponds.

So, you're okay with cultural appropriation--the cheapening of a culture's sacred practices or a cultural religion's most holy rites--as long as that cheapening isn't literal? People can't charge for their services? It's not okay to--y'know what, Adder brings up this point again. Why don't I just cover this whole thing at once.


It's not about legality, OB1. It's about being a decent human being. Do you know what kind of person takes the rites and practices held sacred to another and exploits them for any reason, even one where they don't make any money? A sh**ty one. A completely sh**ty one. The kind of person that does this is the kind of person that runs natives off their land and then replaces everything in the country they used to live with gift shops selling cheap imitation-turquoise jewelry and culturally-inaccurate Hobby-Lobby-feather warbonnets. The kind of person who looks at Rastafarianism as nothing more than smoking weed, wearing sweet dreads, and hanging up posters of Bob Marley, when the religion has a rich and interesting history and culture. This kind of person takes the most holy, the most sacred practices of other cultures, cultures that had no fondness or even contact with one another, and puts them together in a book for neopagans to practice, invoking their names in a completely incorrect ritual that cost some poor teenager $39.95 so they could make a dollar.

But it's also the kind of person that would dance on your grandmother's grave, because they don't see why it's a big deal to you. It's the same kind of person that would play catch with a priceless family heirloom, or relieve themselves on the oak tree your deceased father planted in your honor. These are the kinds of people who destroy rare books for something they saw on Pinterest, or smash depression glass to make a coffee table. These are the kinds of people that don't understand non-material worth.

If you don't see a problem with religious appropriation unless there's money involved, you have a fundamental inability to understand holiness, sacredness, and profanity.
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Adder wrote: They say some degree's are better then others. So considering people's time costs money, I can imagine 'training' in something spiritual could be a paid service, and like any other training provider you assess it's actual worth based on it's capacity for genuine information and practices, not just the cheapest provider. I think the only thing which could be enforced is claiming something which isn't true, which goes hand in hand and reinforces that concept of something being genuine or an authority on a topic. So I don't think we'll ever be able to stop people selling their own experiences/beliefs if they want to, but we can question the authenticity - its that authenticity which is the measure of value to me.

There are many schools of thought on this, and I (personally, being a bit of an eccentric) am conflicted on how (again, personally) to apply this. But, I will say that the three most prevalent schools of thought are:

1. No one should ever be charged for spiritual services, but donations are always acceptable.
2. It's okay to charge for your temporal effort and training, but not your spiritual gifts.
3. It is not only acceptable, but proper, that you be paid for spiritual services rendered. In cash whenever possible.

Many shaman (literal shaman, not the watered-down meaning), Native American tribes, and some Christian churches feel that #1 is the only appropriate response, and even then how they handle it is different. Some Christian churches refuse any compensation (at least once, until you insist), because "...freely ye received, freely give." Many of the Native practitioners I know here in the US refuse to accept cash, but will gladly accept things from a certain specific list of appropriate goods (my favorite and most local will work for blankets, gifts of food, non-monetary metal, tobacco, craft supplies, or an "equal trade" of spiritual services) if you are absolutely adamant about giving them something. Shaman I have spoken with actively expect "payment", but will not accept money. Popular shamanic payments are vodka or tobacco, food, raw material for new tools, tea, leather, and clothing.

#2 is the province of many people, and I hover somewhere between this and the "shaman" section of #1 when I deal with people. I feel like if I put time, effort, and money into learning something, and when I do that thing that it is all my doing (I'm not invoking a deity or spirit to do the work for me, and am using my own energy), or it involves legal paperwork, you're getting charged. If you want a necklace from me (and we aren't close enough for it to be a gift), you'll pay for my craftsmanship, the materials cost, my labor time, and shipping, but not the blessing itself--a blessing is an invocation for a being higher than myself to make this necklace special, sacred, set apart. Since I'm asking for outside assistance, I won't/can't charge for that. If I perform a wedding, I'm not charging for the religious ceremony (because that invokes a being higher than myself on the spiritual planes to oversee and bless the union), but you can damn sure believe you owe me for my transportation, my time (ministers don't just "show up" and perform ceremonies), and the hassle of dealing with the legalities and paperwork, and it won't be cheap. Reiki is very similar for many reasons I hope to discuss in a future rant, though I have covered it pretty clearly in the past as well.

And soooo many people think that #3 is just a horrible, horrible attitude to have, spiritually, but it isn't. Your culture, your religion may frown on it, but it makes a helluva lot of sense. The main example I know to give of this is vodou. There is a Haitian proverb that states "houngan/mambo pa travay pou gran mesi", or "The houngan/mambo doesn't work for a big thank you." Vodou is a religion of barter and bargaining with the lwa, a give and take. Sometimes what the lwa want has to be paid for out of the pockets of the vodouisant. As Andezo skillfully said at imamou.org ,

If Metres Mambo Ezili Freda tells me that the work I want her to do for me is going to cost me a party I have to pay for in her honor, does that mean she’s a fraud too? After all, the grocery store isn’t going to accept my undying love and thanks in return for all that champagne and cake…

Not only that, but vodou, like every other faith, has a lot to pay for. Drummers can't eat or pay their rent with the goodwill of the people. Floorspace can't be rented with love and cheer. You can't buy rum and cigars (for the Baron) with your good looks. Vodou is a religion that believes the traditional line that communities should take care of their spiritual leaders, but is also sensible enough to realize that capitalist culture has all but destroyed that notion in congregants. They split the difference by charging. Most will, in addition to the bartering mentioned above, take cash, check, or credit card. The honest ones are willing to work with an individual to make sure that the work at a level that can be afforded, but the gifts of the lwa (and the time of the mambo or houngan) aren't free, and to stiff any party involved is considered highly offensive. Before I understood this concept, a vodouisant told me they could never respect me as a holy man because I'm not "a professional", I don't make my living doing this stuff. I took it as a grave insult. Now I see it as a cultural difference.
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Jedi_Roz wrote: Great stuff right? Except one person who thought the whole thing was cheesy and or they could do a better job and probably make money off of it. So they take that one experience, dress up a shack in the back of their property, maybe even put some dream catchers out and wear some seagull feathers and then charge people for a authentic sweat lodge. A disaster later and I find out and get really upset because what I shared was a community event. What that person was doing was looking to make a buck or one hundred.

This. This bothers me soooo badly. I wrote a bit of a rant on the hypocrisy of many NRMs in regard to their willingness to call others out on their appropriation, when they're singlehandedly responsible for books upon books upon books of (often literal) desecration for the sake of making a few bucks.

It is a different issue entirely, in my mind, if someone is attempting something like this without the desire for money or renown, because that person is more likely to be willing to listen to reason and be educated on why these aren't things not everyone can or should be doing. And, if they are, who knows? Perhaps their genuine interest will catch the eye of someone who will initiate them properly.

But to profane a sacred practice for money is the lowest form of profanity, in my opinion.

I didn't tell you I had prepared that lodge location weeks in advance, I had a holy man there blessing the grounds. My husband had to go through special rites to be allowed to be a fire keeper. The stone gatherers had to be taught how to use those stones and when to allow the sweat to continue at a slow but steady pace. I had to go through years of training to recognize when people are okay, when they need guidance to keep them grounded or water to drink. The drummers learned songs and rhythms to help people stay focused, aware and not wandering. Afterwards the wood collected has been waiting for a sacred event to burn for it was a grandfather tree that fell down in the winter. The food was all gifted to creator and we shared everything together and to make sure that no one drifted off that flute music continued to keep us grounded as we shared the meal.

THIS. Thankyou. People act like these kinds of ceremonies pop up overnight like mushrooms. So. Much. Effort. goes into rites and rituals, regardless of faith, that is often completely unappreciated.

That is all part of the cultural training. Perhaps I offered this to everyone to help myself become a better spiritual leader. I say this however asking for ANY kind of money (regardless of the bs they state on their website to collect donations) is wrong in Indian Country. Our people take care of each other...In this scenario this was my gift and my responsibility as the water pourer to make sure this happened safely. All of the details are required to be taken care of by me. Not the people coming to the event. That is the difference between Native philosophy and consumerism. In Indian Country we share the ceremony with the community; in consumerism you are paying to be entertained.

Sacred rites are NEVER for sale. They are a gift. If they cannot be treated that way then people do not deserve them nor have the right to perform them.

Very well put, Roz. Thank you for your insight.