The Problem with Black Lives Matter

Yes this is true, and man, my heart really does go out to the injustice of it. But its also less true now than it was fifty years ago and (unless the race-baiting marxist agitators get what they want and make us all MORE racist towards each other) it gets less true with every generation.

There may be agitators on both sides. I've only seen them on one. I'm happy to entertain evidence but its hard for me to concur with "race-baiting marxist agitators" because I honestly don't know enough to say. You may be correct and a lot of us just don't see what you see. I also agree though that things have progressed. People have progressed. Black people used to be openly lynched by regular citizens, not even cops. We used to be afraid of white hoods and burning crosses. Things are definitely better. Absolutely. But we can't stop working for progress because that progress didn't happen on its own. It happened because black people, white people, jews, gentiles.... people raised awareness and influenced a reaction from the majority. And its that pressure from the voters that makes progress in the laws. I don't agree with everything BLM says or wants, but I FEEL where they are coming from. They accomplished a great feat. They were heard, not just by a nation, but they were heard internationally. And if they made even one cop think twice, if they have even saved ONE life by their protests, then for me it was all worth it. BECAUSE black lives matter. And so does white lives and LGBTQ lives. But the problem is that white lives were never in question. White cops don't choose to shoot a white person because they're white. And if a black cop shot a white suspect because of the color of their skin I would want that cop to be sent to prison. I simply seek one standard for all.

The solution is the same now as it was then: black people getting degrees and having successful careers in bedrock institutions such as law (cops, lawyers, judges) medicine, education, banking, infrastructure development, military (as officers) and government (as elected officials). Thats it. Thats always been the the solution to discrimination and its always been an uphill struggle. Its easier now than it has ever been, but (more than ever before) a lot of black people seem to want to make enemies of the white people that are otherwise on their side, by accusing us of being racist oppressors. gtfo lol

You're right! That is 100% the solution. While that's happening, cops shouldn't be able to execute black people because of their racist views. They should be held accountable. Schools shouldn't be able to discriminate. Access to education prevents many of us from achieving successful careers. It devestates hope. It removes the perception of choice. Banks shouldn't be allowed to keep blacks out of "white" neighborhoods. Public education shouldn't be worse than a 3rd world country just because the money is concentrated into wealthier neighborhoods. And if they don't live near those of us who can afford to live there (meaning communities of economic parity) then how will they ever know who we are and trust us to help manage their businesses? When we have equality I promise we will collectively stfu. We're just not there yet. Man if I told you about the struggles of my fiance trying to move up in her career you probably wouldn't even believe me. Don't get me wrong. Things are better than before. And there have always been great people who were white, who stood up against the system. We're (majority) not looking for enemies but friends. We protest because we want those in the majority and those in power to hear our pain. We want America to be better because we know it can be. We believe in that majority otherwise there would be no point in protesting.

When people i hate me i will see them as a threat and an enemy, and i will oppose them. Want me to stand with you, or against you? (again, this is a general "you", not you in particular)

Same here. The difference is that black nationalists don't go around shooting up white churches because that's not what even they want. Even the hatred of the most radical black person in the New Black Panther Party (very different from the original) would evaporate if they didn't feel hated and abused. The reason for their hate isn't skin color. It's the LONG history of actions of people who not only share that skin but make it into a superior product. I don't agree with them but I understand their FEELINGS. All whites are not the same and have never been the same.

Whites are not unified at all. The only whites who even want to be unified (on the basis of whiteness) are the actual white supremacists.. and the more that the left pushes against "whites" as if we are a unified group, the more that the white supremacists and the white nationalists begin to look like justifiable movements. If you want to create MORE racism in the world, the way to do that is by promoting racist ideas such as the idea that all whites are racist and only whites can be racist.

This is a brilliant statement. I agree. Now I want you to flip this whole thing. Blacks are not unified at all. The only blacks who even want to be unified (on the basis of blackness) are the actual black supremacists.. and the more the right pushes against "blacks" as if they are a unified group, the more that the black supremacists and the black nationalists begin to look like justifiable movements. I've been part of movements trying to unify black people for economic empowerment. Why? Because if we can't get economic power from the regular model and our education, crime, housing, businesses, jobs, etc. all depend on economic growth and power... then why not practice "group economics" just like other minority groups. We are the only minority group that doesn't put their money together to take care of themselves. And its because we're not unified. We're black to those who aren't black. But to each other we're just people. Just like whites, to each other, are just people. One day I hope we can all just be people.

ONLY RACISTS see people as being unified by their race.

my younger more optimistic self would agree with this. My older self cannot ignore the racism experience by my people. Therefore, we become unified by the struggle of being black in America. It's not just because we have black skin because black skin murders black skin all the time. But we are unified through a shared experience. Whites would never be unified as "former slave masters" because that would be wrong and ridiculous. A vast MINORITY of whites were slave owners. But for slaves it was different. Especially since our families were literally torn apart that made us more of a family.

The problem is that cops are allowed to kill people and get away with it. Not that they are allowed to kill black people. A free pass to murder American citizens is inexcusable, regardless of the race of the citizens.

I agree 100%. I don't think anyone wants cops to kill people and get away with it. Sometimes a cop kills a person and it has nothing to do with race at all. It's wrong either way. But the targeting of African Americans is an additional issue. The criminal justice system's targeting of black people is an additional issue. If you want to remove race I would agree with this statement: "cops should not be allowed to discriminate". We can say that without stating a color or gender or sexuality. But BLM is protesting discrimination, not just killing people. Whether or not you say who they are discriminating against is not as relevant as the fact that they are (and some have admitted) discriminating. We didn't make up the word "racial profiling". That was and is a practice of many jurisdictions. But if we're looking at one issue (police brutality) from a macroscopic lens... you're not going to see change. How do I know? Because we haven't seen change. People just quietly go missing and we, as a general mass of Americans, don't notice them enough to do anything about it. What groups were talking about it on the national stage and calling for reforms? And there comes a point were you can't wait around for the majority to notice a problem that affects you disproportionately. The LGBTQ community shouldn't wait for the majority to treat them as human beings. Nor can they say "stop oppressing people in general". No... you have to be specific to stop specific actions. But agree with a lot of what you have said and appreciate your patience in this conversation. I love you. I respect you. May the Force be with you.

Siptah wrote: Truth is not what you want it to be; it is what it is, and you must bend to its power or live a lie.
---Miyamoto Musashi

Musashi also said “You must cultivate your wisdom and spirit. Polish your wisdom: learn public justice, distinguish between good and evil, study the Ways of different arts one by one. When you cannot be deceived by men you will have realized the wisdom of strategy.”

Your "truth" is not necessarily the "truth" Musashi was speaking of in that quote you used. The actual "truth" contains both sides of this issue, whether either wants to admit it or not.

I want to apologize for my tantrum earlier in the thread. Mostly I’d like to say sorry to ZealotX. I made some bad assumptions about your arguments and had some bad associations on this subject because of past history trying to discuss it.

In any event, that said, I do think that people should be treated equally regardless of skin color, nationality, etc. It is one’s choices that matter, not one’s birth circumstances. I do think that there is a major problem surrounding this issue in the U.S. and other places the world over. Many things do need to change. I just question how some people are going about their attempts to affect change.

@Lykeios

I really appreciate that. I don't remember everything I said to you but if I said anything you perceived to be offensive I'm also sorry.

What you said about past history is, in my opinion, very important. First, that's not something I can hold against you. What's important to me is that there is a logical reason for it. And the truth is that there are experiences on both sides that, if applied to others, helps to perpetuate racism and the bad feelings attached to it.

For example... there are plenty of black people with really bad experiences. Because of that some of them advocate total separation, going back to Africa, anti-police chants, defense, etc. There are guys who talk about white people being "the devil" because they compare the hell that slaves had to go through with the very idea of "Satan" as an adversarial force. These are reactions. Most disagreements imo turn into arguments and fights because both sides react and feel justified in their reactions. At some point we can just end up reacting to each others reactions and lose sight of the original disagreement. I don't agree with the black people who overreact but I understand their feelings and why they're overreacting. I don't agree with the white people who overreact and I understand to some degree why. It is unfair to be linked with hate and injustice and horrible offenses when you do not stand for these things. At the same time it is unfair to be linked to criminal behavior just because you have a certain color of skin and when crime is, much more intellectually honest, linked to economic disparity.

There are blacks who go out of their way to ignore crime in the black community. Why? Is there a link between black crime and white people? There is. However, are white forcing anyone to sell drugs? They're not. What people do to survive is what it is but you can't excuse self-destructive behavior. Bill Cosby addressed these issues, not just in speeches, but through his TV shows. But part of the reason why there are blacks who go out of their way to ignore the crime or responsibility is because of the blame and attachment where so many whites associate the criminal activity in the black community to "being black" rather than being born and raised in a very low economic status.

Meanwhile... while we're throwing stones at each other and turning each other into the enemy the rich are judging the poor as a group and the biggest warfare is class warfare.

@Siptah

Honestly, it makes you come off as more of a troll than anyone to be taken seriously. I thought about addressing your insults point by point but that would probably serve as a diversion from the adult conversation taking place. You will not be able to provoke racial animosity here; bait all you like.

Instead I will reiterate what I've been saying. PEOPLE have done many good things trying to stop racism. Many of those people happened to be white and many of those people happened to be black. Ignoring the contributions on either side is a display of ignorance. These people ignore contributions to the world such as Africa being the birth place of all humans, Africans creating language, math, art, science, etc. And yes, Egyptians were "black" as well even though the height of their civilization existed before the idea of race was invented. And we can talk about how the Moors influenced invention and technology in Europe and where Algebra, for example, came from, and were surgery came from, where video game cartridges came from, where some of the technology that created the internet came from, and many other things commonly taken for granted today. But all of that would be missing the point.

...That we are all people who are not defined by how we look. Racism exists because of people trying to assign positive traits to themselves through the use of a false premise while assigning negative traits to others by the same token so that they can feel superior to them. They have to convince themselves of this racial propaganda in order to gain a social advantage from other whites they deceive by convincing them that blacks are a common threat. Manipulating people's fears works but it is very cowardly. But this is why racists tend to be very fearful and uneducated individuals who spread racism like a virus to other fearful, ignorant, and uneducated individuals. That kind of think simply wont work here

This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6rDvbQ-mz4&t=217s

OB1Shinobi wrote: This was a pretty cool video by a channel im beginning to love. Its called “Can Black Lives Matter and Law Enforcement Co-exist?”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6rDvbQ-mz4&t=217s

Great video. And I've seen other videos before from this same channel. A lot of good stuff.


When they invoked MLK I think he does represent a lot of people who feel the same way and I think this is often why many people don't understand the whole BLM mindset. They are looking through a lens of how things "should be" rather than seeing how things are. And they don't really have to see how things are and no one can make them. So when it comes to the way others should react they can invoke MLK but when it comes to their own conscious or unconscious bias, this same guy starts talking about crime statistics.

But wait! I don't remember any statistics in MLK's dream. It was all content of character. The only reason to bring up crime stats is to justify prejudicial treatment of minorities. If you're going to invoke MLK then you should be acting like those statistics do not exist and whoever you are stopping is equally innocent until proven guilty. Isn't justice supposed to be blind for the sake of fairness and equality? But some of the same people who claim not to see color, often see color when it is convenient to do so; or when they get scared as if being scared makes it okay.

It is that same element of fear that makes a police officer dangerous to anyone (of any race/gender/ethnicity) they are stopping and/or chasing. However, if an officer is predisposed to fear of certain types of people this may not show up on a test he has to take in order to wear a badge. And as far as statistics, there are statistics too which tells us what happens to blacks four times more often. And it isn't simply about "this cop is a racist" but rather how much an officer is influenced by racism itself (talking about the whole construct and its support by society). How much is that cop aware of crime statistics? How much does that officer equate black people with poverty and the desperate behaviors poverty can produce? How many black stereotypes has this officer heard and is subconsciously influenced by? How many jokes about black people has this officer heard and chuckled if not laughed at? How much does an officer understand that the thug persona is often a mask used to help young black men survive and cope with their own fear?

It's not simply about what color you but how much you are affected by racial issues and how much you understand the people you are policing whether they are White, Black, Hispanic, or Asian.

That's why it makes sense that the police should come from the communities they are policing. No, that wouldn't fix everything. But at least it would be better. I don't want to be policed by guys who have never had an extended conversation with a black person. Has he lived MLK's dream in his personal life? If so, then we should be able to tell from his social media. There should be at least one black person who can vouch for him or her. That, I would be okay with. But if someone from that person's personal life could file a report and say they overheard something then no, I would feel safer if that officer was moved to a white community. It's not necessarily about a person's color. It's about their experiences and how they contribute to their implicit and explicit biases.

And as much as we can all talk about MLK and his dream there are still black communities and white communities and public schools funded by the tax dollars of the communities they're in. So I hear that... and it's good, but we also have to consider where we currently are as a society so that we can figure out how to get to where we want to be. Because we are not there yet. This is not the mountain top.

Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.

ren wrote: Cops fear criminals and criminals fear cops. They're all armed to the teeth, further justifying that fear. It has got nothing to do with race, statistical discrepancies are not a product of outright racism, but a byproduct of historical racism.

Cops go after criminals. Criminals are likely from a poor or cop-hating background. People are poor or hate law enforcement because of injustices. Historically, major injustices were committed in perfect legality against large groups of people over multiple generations, often on the basis of their skin colour, national origin.

States/cities could easily create a new class of cop, unarmed, dressed in high visibility gear, and create a new class of crime to legally protect these special officers and severely punish anyone who harms them. And perhaps stop treating the law like it's god's most sacred creation on earth.

Saying it has nothing to do with race I think is an assumption that cannot fairly be made. Recent history has shown that it's more than just fear. I know there are racist people because I know people with racists in their families. If some of them are cops then it is what it is. They can't suddenly put racism on the shelf when they put that uniform on and you only have to listen to the Mark Fuhrman tapes to know how much racism intertwines with law enforcement. This idea that people don't bring themselves, their personality, their habits (good or bad), etc. into their jobs... just doesn't hold water. Police officers are people. And some people are racist just like some people are obese. Yes, it is true.

You may not see it because you can't see racism like you can see obesity. Racism is more like an STD. If you aren't in a position to have sexual relations with someone who's infected you may not know they have an STD and even then, you may not know unless they disclose it to you. And do they tell everyone? No. They'll tell you if they trust you or if they feel like you need to know. That's how racism is. It's not something everyone is proud of because everyone knows that society views it as ignorant and backwards thinking. This is where class warfare comes in because a lot of people don't want their culture being dictated by socially conscious, politically correct, "elites". So yes, they would like to be openly racist but they know they can't. They're not stupid. Saying something racist in public is like a crime in and of itself; a social crime. Therefore, these "criminals" simply say these things among themselves. Not every crime is done in broad daylight. Even if a drug deal is done in broad daylight its usually a very private sort of transaction. Again... that's how racism is. So if you expect every racist to show you their card, they're just not gonna.

That said, it is true that criminals are armed to the teeth. This is why our gun laws don't make sense (to me). Because the more you arm, the more everyone else is going to arm up too. Criminals aren't going to shoot you with arrows when they know you have muskets. Criminals are not going to carry muskets when they know you have a 9 mm. The more deadly the weapon you allow people on one side to have the more people on the other side will upgrade to compete. But neither side MAKES the weapons. They just buy them and use them. Which means there is one party that always benefits from everyone's desire to upgrade. The same thing happens among nations. Nations feel like they have to acquire more missiles and bombs because of the missiles and bombs another nation has. And there is always one party that benefits; the party that makes the weapons and the people who are invested in those companies. And they are the ones who lobby against gun laws and they are the ones who don't make weapons with better security to prevent them falling into the wrong hands. Why? Because they don't want to tip the balance of power in favor of the criminals OR the non-criminals. Because then people would feel safer and therefore buy less guns.

Last but not least, I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms. I think this is a very smart (part of the) solution. A soldier is trained to kill. So when you send in soldiers to be police you're running a risk that they will fall back on their soldier training. Then you have SWAT. They don't get sent in on domestic violence calls either. When a call is dispatched there should be a threat level associated with it. I would suggest having dedicated teams for non-violent offenses armed with non-lethal weapons; stun guns, etc. Most importantly, I would give them kevlar guards and an arm mounted shield.

You could have other teams and do something even like the combo soldiers where one had the shield and the other a sword or spear. This way you could send in the person with the shield out in front, to block and talk, while the second officer's job is to protect the first, shooting back if necessary. I think being armed with shields and non-lethals is perfectly fine and wouldn't force non-violent criminals to carry more violent or deadly weapons. A lot of these criminals would give up peacefully if they didn't fear for their lives.

I know there are already police officers who specialize in homicide or theft. I think it would be a good idea to create new specialties. And allow weapon manufacturers to create the next generation of non-lethal solutions for a new generation of non-lethal cops. Otherwise, being armed to the teeth is just going to remain normal and criminals don't use their weapons only on cops. The same way cops currently view every suspect as a deadly threat, criminals view everyone that way because everyone could have the same deadly weapon that they're carrying. So the freedom to be armed to the teeth isn't making us safer.

I love your idea about different kinds of police officers in different uniforms.

We introduced a role for police officers that specialises in helping you find good latte places. It seems to be going well.




I can tell never from reading this posts (and other stuff on the internet) If I really do just live in a completely different world, (I've had the odd run in with cops, and they are dicks as often as not, but I wouldn't say they are half a dozen shiny rocks away from ripping the earth in half.....) or if the people writing things have an agenda that might skew the facts a little....