What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Zero_storm wrote: Why is everyone so worried about telling everyone else that the path they walk as a Jedi is wrong? Too much focus on being right!

Right ,wrong ,or indifferent, be the Jedi you want to be, and let others do the same. All of this arguing has had me doubting my own beliefs and actions.......no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

Because many here cannot conceive of something such as being a Jedi as having true value unless it is an objective value (a standard) that applies to everyone. Some feel they need to have a standard to compare themselves and others to in order to give a value to where they are on their path. It is very difficult for them to think of this "playing field" any differently. To them, if this kind of system does not take place, than it must be a value-less definition-less free-for-all that might as well not exist.

There are some of us like myself who don't see the "playing field" in terms of a "moral model", but instead in more of an "existential model", since it is the existential level of things in which morals arise from in the first place, and is the one level that every human being is connected within. Outside of that level, things get split up, comparisons are made, and people begin picking "sides" as to what is "right" and "wrong", and trying to objectify things on this level.

Alas, it's not an easy notion (the existential model of the playing field) to get one's understanding into without spending a lot of time learning how to shed layers and layers of perceptual illusions from, and even after a life time, you never truly shed them, you just become free of slavery to it. For people who aren't "there" yet, any mention of this model is just a bunch of non-sense, and many of the obstacles to getting to that point can make one feel very discouraged that its even worth it.

So as a result, you have a temple with plenty of people who are operating their path on a quite conventional moral level, where they are right, others are wrong, there are Jedi and non-Jedi, and everything is just a familiar and typical as any other system of belief or philosophy.

Zero_storm wrote: ...no more! I know who I am, and why I am that way. And more so, what I BELIEVE I need to do to better myself and positively affect the world around me.That's what's important!

Yeah! Be the best, most genuine you you can be!

Proteus, you put into words something I couldn't even begin too. Thank you.

My point exactly if they want to believe they are an incarnation of something that resonates in their very heart beat: their existential pulse... then so be it... I would not stop the Darth maul from breathing... and I certainly would not restrict the Vilma De Booma from surviving after so long... Baress offee may be locked up but her needs will always be the same.... good tobacco and something creative to focus on... I have not heard from Bruce Lee... but I assume he is doing well... Apart from that the Sunrider crew are all well and happy with their current incarnations without the need for superfluous role play masquerades into a galaxy of their own making... The twist is all the same... drink it dry or iced... my martini is shaken not stirred...

I have heard from a handful of Jedi brothers and sisters that they feel drained after coming to the temple. Reason being lots of negative energy. This is touchy but many beliefs and opinions i feel are part of the cause. Also beliefs can be dangerous as we humans feel the need to protect such beliefs. Causing attachment. Instead promote encouragement, truth, and understanding.

Glenn wrote: I have heard from a handful of Jedi brothers and sisters that they feel drained after coming to the temple. Reason being lots of negative energy. This is touchy but many beliefs and opinions i feel are part of the cause. Also beliefs can be dangerous as we humans feel the need to protect such beliefs. Causing attachment. Instead promote encouragement, truth, and understanding.

I can understand that. But at the same time... who creates the topics? It's not the responsibility of the world to create positive experiences. It is our freedom, and how we use it, that create these experiences for ourselves and each other. So I understand the feeling but at the same time, not the practice.

I can complain that we're tearing down too many trees but am I not willing to donate to plant one? If the people who want more positivity aren't starting positive threads, do they really want it? Or are they just making excuses? TOTJO's leadership can only do so much. The rest is up to us.

And there has been a subdivision of the boards precisely to clearer segregate the areas where one ought expect an exchange of different ideas.

That being said, I for one have difficulty appreciating what a pursuit of understanding is supposed to be, if it does not involve speaking and listening to people with different perspectives and positions from one's own. To me, someone who finds that there is too much difference between us, is, with all due respect, not someone whom I see as one who is looking to learn. We can coexist with those, in my opinion. There have, as you are reporting, been sentiments against how many threads end up with interesting or at least passionate discussions, as they are too "negative" in the opinions of some. Meanwhile I can't recall anyone ever saying that some of the more one-dimensional threads like the ones only linking music, or quotes, or poems, or workout progression, are in anyone's way. Ironically, the "negative" ... let's call it "side" for lack of a better word... seems to be the one more happy to coexist, whilst the quest for "positivity" is the one that presumably brought the recent re-structuring, and not even to the "positivity"-crowd's satisfaction, if this thread's revival post is anything to go by. :silly:

Understanding is listening to different views. And why would we put people down? Why wouldn't we try and be truthful. Its part of the Jedi code. As far as I can see your just trying to argue with me Gisteron. Yes I'm calling you out. You have put forth no solutions. At least I did. What solutions you got.

Glenn wrote: Understanding is listening to different views.

Well... Let's say that'd be a start, sure.

And why would we put people down?

I don't know. I have yet to witness someone putting anyone down here, though, so I'm not sure how important it is when it comes to a discussion about improving the Temple.

Why wouldn't we try and be truthful.

Again, no idea. I reckon most think that they are trying in their own way. In the end we don't get to see anyone's efforts at a glance, only the end results. And sometimes, comparing the results to how little or how much effort it took others among us to reach theirs one may end up questioning whether or not everyone is indeed trying. But at the end of the day I don't find it productive to pass a judgement on this one way or the other. Even the most zealous truth-seekers among us will fail some of the time, and some of the time it may well be for a lack of trying. But if they value truth and understanding, they'll happily stand corrected all the same. Ignorance, after all, is not just a matter of not knowing. Nobody knows everything. The only genuinely shameful sort of ignorance - in my opinion, at any rate - is the sort that leaves us without wondering, without a will to learn, or worse yet, with a will not to.

Its part of the Jedi code.

Much as I'd love to encourage truthfulness, it is not an explicit part of the Code, in my opinion. One can argue that any pursuit of knowledge and quest against ignorance is one that has to incorporate honesty with oneself and possibly others at one point or another. I am very sympathetic to that interpretation myself, but I would insist that nevertheless it is an interpretation I'd project onto the Code, not an intrinsic part of it.

As far as I can see your just trying to argue with me Gisteron. Yes I'm calling you out. You have put forth no solutions. At least I did. What solutions you got.

Solutions to what problem, exactly? I don't find that having a place with people of different opinions is a problem. I don't find that others having an issue with it is a problem either, at least not one that any of the rest of us have a moral incentive to remedy. And if you happen to find this response of mine unsatisfactory, well... that is also something I think we can all live with, for now.

I respect you Gisteron, and you have point of view that I have not considered. Something new is apreciated. Thank you. Unfortunately I met my match. Lol. Well done. I got to hand it to you. My only request is be gentile with me. Your out my league. I got lots to learn from you but it takes me a while.

Give the current restructure a chance I guess, and see if folk can make it work productively for the community rather than themselves... an easy habit to fall into.

Otherwise, discussion could be channeled into specific training modalities, such as;
- critical assessments (destructive testing)
- imaginative interpretations (BYO, brainstorming new views)
- analytical investigations (groupthink teamwork, non-destructive testing)

In all honesty and in no disrespect I believe that in a temple or church like setting that you shouldn't have leaders that believe in other religions. Such as catholic, mormon, or so on. I believe that only the truly devoted to the force should be of any status here.

That's interesting.

I'd be interested to know your reasoning

Bradly wrote: In all honesty and in no disrespect I believe that in a temple or church like setting that you shouldn't have leaders that believe in other religions. Such as catholic, mormon, or so on. I believe that only the truly devoted to the force should be of any status here.

Here’s a devil advocate and even real life here -

I am a Jedi minister. (Pastor)
My practices and daily and weekly meetings envolve a lot of INTRA- faith practices. I don’t pray, yet I can encourage other to. Is knowing of faiths and practices the same as knowing other faiths? Truthfully I only claim to be a Jedi, but that doesn’t say a person of Ambrahamic faith can’t hold office or even serve - does it? A Mormon? A Tribesman - some one different than us? Should it ? Granted, we as Modern day Jedi are different in our faith is a bit on the inclusive as much as the individual can balance or choose.
I am interested to know your thoughts Bradly.
Force continue to be with ya

Bradly wrote: In all honesty and in no disrespect I believe that in a temple or church like setting that you shouldn't have leaders that believe in other religions. Such as catholic, mormon, or so on. I believe that only the truly devoted to the force should be of any status here.

So what do you mean by "status", then? If all it stands for is the purity of the holder's faith, then what makes it desirable or admirable? Why would anyone look up to someone who has "status" or want to have any themselves? And if "status" is a measure of spiritual or philosophical maturity, then what would you propose to restrict access to it for those with broader religious sensibilities? If "status" reflects how the community at large respects or values a user's input, what way do you see to control its accumulation without commanding how individual users feel about someone's contributions?

You did of course say that you are talking about positions of authority and leadership. The question, I find, applies here all the same, though. If leadership is a matter of respect among the general congregation, how would one enforce that it be restricted to those who are ideologically pure? If it is a matter of spiritual maturity, why would only the strongly devoted show signs of that? And if leadership should be granted based directly on purity of faith, then what makes it interesting or important to follow that leader?

All questions I haven't prepared for. Honestly i will get back tonthat.. but yes those who lack devotion of the force should not be teaching what its like to believe in the force. And or worship the force. When they in fact dont. They can teach the meaning and what they believe the force is. But that is only opinion. Anyone can be apart of the force and say yes I belive.in the force.. but the truth is devotion and belief go hand in hand. I'm not... as well versed in literature as most. So I'm not the best to explain. Nor am I one to lead.. give me time and I shall have answeres. Last time
It took me 2 years just to answer a question that in depth. Patience my brothers and sisters.. and though I say these things. I still love and care and trust all of you. And yes I will listen to all ideas and beliefs in the force..

I'm sorry I will be more in depth later.

May the force guide you.

If we look here:

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/ordermembership

These are the criteria. Admittedly, we take potential members at their word when they meet them.

A belief in the Force is a criteria

How does one worship the Force?

(Before anyone else responds to Bradly, please take extra time to think carefully about your words and what you want to come from them)

It's okay Bradly. Maybe you're not familiar here with how Jediism (at least the flavor of TOTJO's Jediism) works. Jediism does not include worship of the Force or of anything. It is literally based around inclusive and syncratic philosophy and it is held up as such. This means that it is meant to compliment any other beliefs one holds outside of Jediism OR to be used as a standalone belief.

Of course, if you yourself wish to approach Jediism as you describe, you have the right to do that for yourself. However, Jediism around these parts, does not encourage any idea of casting one's own personal rules of their faith unto everyone/anyone else.

With that said, thank you for sharing your views here with us!

Bradly wrote: All questions I haven't prepared for.

Roz's query was rather open-ended. All she is asking is what thoughts if any led you to believe/feel as you do. Sounds straightforward enough to me, no need to write an entire thesis paper about it.

[Those who lack devotion of the force] can teach the meaning and what they believe the force is. But that is only opinion.

So is the teaching of fully committed devotees. The Code, in my opinion, makes no encouragement to devote oneself to the Force, let alone to worship it. Sure, maybe someone who doesn't worship it is not quite the right person to teach worshipping it but... Would that actually leave out an otherwise vital Jediist teaching?

... devotion and belief go hand in hand.

Do they?

give me time and I shall have answeres. Last time it took me 2 years just to answer a question that in depth. Patience my brothers and sisters.

... I will be more in depth later.

Oh, alright. Take your time. Maybe some of us will remember what we went on about in however many months it takes this time.

The Temple would be better If we stopped catering to babies. Threads get locked and people get banned because some of the people here feel that they have to protect the children who dont know how to choose their own levels of participation. Do you not know how to see people being mean to one another without feeling that you have to choose a battle position of your own? Do you not know how to disagree with somebody without it turning into a war? Do you not know how to say to yourself “this is not good for me and I need tl just walk away for a minute”?

Well fck, if you want to call yourself a Jedi then maybe you should learn how to do these things. Maybe it is more useful to let some of this play out and allow people the opportunity to learn from it than to just shut it down in order to protect us all from our own selves and our own feelings? And If a conversation happens to branch off into a new direction, maybe thats OK, too? The only IRL conversations that I have had which have stayed “on topic” were work conversations, where there were very specific goals and parameters and we had to stay within them in order to achieve what we had to achieve - natural discussions tend to evolve and grow and move off into new and unexpected territory. Thats just the nature of conversation. And hey, maybe it takes years YEARS for people to grow up and learn how to be cool - MAYBE thats OK, too. Maybe we should be allowed to be flawed.

I really dislike the new layout of the Temple: this “Outer Rim” and etc - I respect the intent behind it but it makes everything much MUCH more difficult to navigate, at least for me on my device. Its really a pain in the ass tbh.The only benefit that I ever saw to it was the possibility that MAYBE we could have a space that WASNT so goddam safe. A space where we could just go ahead and be real with each other. The explanation that I seem to remember was that there is now a SAFE SPACE in the Temple and there is also the “Outer Rim”. My understanding was obviously incorrect. Even the “Outer Rim” is still all “safe space”. We’re still heavily moderated and babied. I dont really think that it is good for people who arent babies to be babied. Babies should be babied. The rest of us need to grow tf up.

Jedi Masters - lol. Sure. Have to silence and censor people because you cannot communicate well enough to navigate either them nor even the rest of us through silly arguments on the internet - but you're a Jedi Master.
LOL.
OK.