What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Accept for very long meditations on other planets of course... Arisaig... this was also combined with saving the galaxy from take over by there dark force and eventual destruction of everything we hold dear... love and recall in life... fighting for it is a natural instinct if it came down to it... I think most people will: thats the part of the problem were all attached to different nations; attached to the identity: and don't see ourselves as global citizens: I think these characters would have seen themselves as part of a growing, dynamic and expanding as well as evolving universe/galaxy and cosmos... not as isolated individuals serving their own ego. What I am outlining here: is that they served the force... and so followed their intuition about how to best so do that... thats where were all different Arisaig: We all intuit our own way on how to do so...

For example Asriag... is I Said to you "its a nice day to die today Asriag" Would you curl up in a little ball like a child might do or actually rise to the challange of what might be trying to do that to you? I think the choice is very clear: we make a stand for what we love.. our freedom... our way of life or we run... Ill be going with you on that run if this nuclear falll out happens to somewhere neutral just like most people will... because you cannot stop a nuclear missile Asariag... none of us is that strong yet... the power to do that may very well be fictional... and not relative to the human capacity for feat... so yes I would leave and live in relative isolation due to this... because I would not be able to stop a nuke... if anyone was to threaten my family or group I would defend myself and them also... this is natural when its right in front of you asriag how you would react well try and respond to the madness that this world has become... I try and see the sanity In us all, the common thread that weaves its way thru our DNA and makes us human,.. the goodness in us all... may the force be with you brother...

If I want to hear about theories regarding other planets and our spiritual connections, I'll watch Ancient Aliens....

Oh, wait, I am! It's playing in the background right now- and their "logic" makes more sense than what you're trying to sell, Alex. You need some work on your delivery.

PRO-TIP: Lurk for awhile and actively pay attention to what people are talking about so you can form an understanding of what it is you're looking at inspiring people to do. You might find out that what you want people to be doing, they are already doing....And they're doing it better than you.

First of all, derailing of this thread aside, I always find it amazing how the Jedi of this temple spend so much effort in claiming a distance from the roots of their faith in Star Wars and yet anytime a debate breaks out they can’t help but quote Star Wars places, events, characters and their fictional actions. How do you ever expect anyone to take you seriously if you can’t have a conversation without bringing fictional elements into your conversations? I mean seriously? Claiming that “if Qui Gon were alive he would recommend X Y or Z verses being isolated and then countering that by claiming that Obiwan, Luke and Yoda did it? How is any of that even the slightest bit in the realm of reality?


Secondly…

JEDIONE777 wrote: This may seem extreme but it could be fun also: to practice the age old arts of the Jedi mind trick, to tap the psychic ability latent in us all: validated now by studies conducted by the US Navy and specialist research branches within the US government...

esp. for the beginning stages:

... PSI skills, mindfulness, breath work, nervous system control and integration of the whole human complex into one action

reiki, energy healing practices and all manner of other modalities are available:

sound healing,
crystal energy work,

some are musically inclined, others artistic or predisposed to higher frequencies of thought:

comprehension of complex patterns, synthesis based cohesion,
root cause comprehension:

We should learn about emotions... grieving, sadness and happiness as well: joy even... and how they affect us all every day all year round...

This singular act of inclusion could change transform and help a great deal of people... sensitive, loving seekers of enlightenment...whom struggle in the real world because their abilities, their intelligence, their gifts are not validated...

electromagnetic frequency are around us all the time... some can feel it more than others... while the most advanced of us can tap it...

kinetic ability is not unheard of: and chi is simply energy that can be used in a diverse manner of performance related capacity...

I picked the most incoherent portions of this post and I just need to ask, what does any of this mean or how is it in any way relevant to the path of a Jedi by what you claim is a minimum standard? You make unfounded assertion with nothing to back it up. The govt seems to be involved in some grand conspiracy? How does one “tap” the electromagnetic frequency? What are higher frequencies of thought? Synthesis based cohesion? Kinetic ability? What does any of that even mean??

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: First of all, derailing of this thread aside, I always find it amazing how the Jedi of this temple spend so much effort in claiming a distance from the roots of their faith in Star Wars and yet anytime a debate breaks out they can’t help but quote Star Wars places, events, characters and their fictional actions. How do you ever expect anyone to take you seriously if you can’t have a conversation without bringing fictional elements into your conversations? I mean seriously? Claiming that “if Qui Gon were alive he would recommend X Y or Z verses being isolated and then countering that by claiming that Obiwan, Luke and Yoda did it? How is any of that even the slightest bit in the realm of reality?

So what if it draws from the fiction? Do not other faiths draw from the works that inspired them? I do not steer clear of the fiction, they are our basis, without them, there wouldn't be "Jedi". I make no effort in claiming a distance from the fiction. When I tell someone "I am a Jedi", they automatically draw comparisons from the fiction. Its my job then to show them the line between the real and the fake, but we do hold that presitge. When I took on the mantle of Jedi, you adopt the mantle taken on by the jedi, real and fake. Here, the fiction and reality are closely meshed. If they aren't, well... then this place becomes Daoists and Buddhists in Jedi robes.

I do agree, though, that we can't use fictional persons to make a point. (ie. if Qui Gon was alive he would...) That holds no merit, I do agree there. His opinion doesn't matter because he doesn't exist.

I am a Lightsabre wielding, robe wearing Jedi and proud of it. Because I want to emulate those legends. I want to emulate the wisdom of these fake persons, because even though they're fake they do teach lessons. Sometimes the best lessons we learn are from people that have never existed.

But alas, my earlier point was a joke. I thought I had made it clear enough as sarcasm (ie. winky face). See below for my full quote. Take not of the "hehe" and emotes.

Arisaig wrote: Hehe, never been part of their way? Tell that to Obi Wan, Yoda, Luke, ect ect. ;P

Arisaig wrote: But alas, my earlier point was a joke. I thought I had made it clear enough as sarcasm (ie. winky face). See below for my full quote. Take not of the "hehe" and emotes.

Why do you make such an impassioned plea for the value in the fiction and then in your last statements just dismiss all that by saying it was just a joke anyway?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: But alas, my earlier point was a joke. I thought I had made it clear enough as sarcasm (ie. winky face). See below for my full quote. Take not of the "hehe" and emotes.

Why do you make such an impassioned plea for the value in the fiction and then in your last statements just dismiss all that by saying it was just a joke anyway?

Because my statement that you had refereed to was a joke, but you made it seem as otherwise. I just wanted to clarify that it was a jest, in case it had been taken as a serious statement. I am, after all, allowed to make a joke from time to time.

As for the "impassioned plea", which I would describe as more of an argument towards the incorporation of the fiction in this Temple, well... that is because you asked. See below:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: How do you ever expect anyone to take you seriously if you can’t have a conversation without bringing fictional elements into your conversations? I mean seriously? Claiming that “if Qui Gon were alive he would recommend X Y or Z verses being isolated and then countering that by claiming that Obiwan, Luke and Yoda did it? How is any of that even the slightest bit in the realm of reality?

As you can see, twas merely a response. I am only supplying how I view the matter of the fiction and this place. I'm not saying we can use it as the source of an argument for or against something. But without the fiction, this place may as well be an online Buddhism course.If you don't agree, oh well. C'est la vie.

Arisaig wrote: I am only supplying how I view the matter of the fiction and this place. I'm not saying we can use it as the source of an argument for or against something. But without the fiction, this place may as well be an online Buddhism course.

I have had to do some reevaluation on this very question in the context of discussions going on in the Clergy. As resistant as I've been to referencing the fiction in my ministry until now, I'm finally starting to see the truth in what you say. The fiction was designed in part to illustrate the spiritual questions posed by Campbell, Watts, at al; throwing it out and expecting everyone to relate to the source material without the intermediary metaphor is a waste of what could be valuable and relatable teaching tools.

Arisaig wrote: Because my statement that you had refereed to was a joke, but you made it seem as otherwise. I just wanted to clarify that it was a jest, in case it had been taken as a serious statement. I am, after all, allowed to make a joke from time to time.

I thought it was otherwise. The poster you replied to seems to take the fictional lore very seriously based on his comments. Then as a joke your reply was not designed to encourage or give constructive criticism but to belittle him. So if the lore is a valuable source of instruction why do you disparage it like that in this case by using it as a source of mockery? As a Jedi is this a trait you aspire to?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: I thought it was otherwise. The poster you replied to seems to take the fictional lore very seriously based on his comments. Then as a joke your reply was not designed to encourage or give constructive criticism but to belittle him. So if the lore is a valuable source of instruction why do you disparage it like that in this case by using it as a source of mockery? As a Jedi is this a trait you aspire to?

I dunno, must have a different Star Wars wherever you are from here. I seem to remember some of my favourite quotes from the Jedi are... well... sassy.

Exhibit A


But still, seems like you're down for arguing for the sake of arguing today. Everyone here knows I don't belittle people. I may jab, but always in friendly jest. I'm not a malicious person, and thankfully I have that reputation. We don't climb a mountain by shoving people back down, especially if we're all attached to the same line (ie. The Force). And that was all my point was. A friendly jab. Hence, as previously mentioned, I denoted it as humour.

I don't pull too much from the fiction, but just like the bible and other books, there is wisdom to be taken from some of the quotes. Do, or Do Not, there is No Try. Be Mindful... In A Certain Point of View, there was a quote I loved that I will probably write down for funeral ceremonies if it's ever needed "Mourn them do not. Miss them do not. Rejoice for those who transform into the force." So I think there is good wisdom in almost anything from religious texts, to fiction, to lyrics from the Beatles.

Not universal wisdom though to be sure.

How can there be practice without the try? No one just decides expertise in a thing and then just becomes that.

To deny the morning of a loved one is to deny us one of the most basic emotional processes we can ever go through. Denial is not healthy. Celebrate them yes, but also morn them unashamedly. To do any less is to deny our humanity.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Not universal wisdom though to be sure.

Your opinion of course...

To deny the morning of a loved one is to deny us one of the most basic emotional processes we can ever go through.

I've always been more of an evening sort of guy myself... :laugh:

Zenchi wrote: Your opinion of course...

That's the point isn't it?

Quotes are words, fictional stories are made up, doesn't matter the source, what matters is the meaning they invoke.

Because wisdom is innate, we can all enlighten ourselves.
Huineng

All know the way, but few actually walk it.
Bodhidharma

Kyrin,

I agree with you on the mourning. But think there should be a short mourning period. I have a cousin. It's been about 8 years since her son died. It seems like every day FB is filled with messages to that dead son. I think when it becomes an attachment and you can't go on with your life that it becomes an issue. To me the quote is about not letting the mourning control you. Miss them, and go on. I still miss my parents, but I don't spend every hour of every day mourning them.

rrhodes67 wrote: Kyrin,

I agree with you on the mourning. But think there should be a short mourning period. I have a cousin. It's been about 8 years since her son died. It seems like every day FB is filled with messages to that dead son. I think when it becomes an attachment and you can't go on with your life that it becomes an issue. To me the quote is about not letting the mourning control you. Miss them, and go on. I still miss my parents, but I don't spend every hour of every day mourning them.

Actually the quote says, Mourn them do not, Miss them do not. To me that does not mean letting the mourning control you but to not even engage in the mourning at all. While I agree that we should not let it control our lives I also believe it is a process that is necessary to go through. I also do not believe anyone can put a set time frame for another to go through that process either. I cant say if 8 years is to long, however in that, there could be other circumstances as well. Depression is a major one. Its not something people just "get over" or "shake off". Sometimes a bit of help is needed.

Atticus wrote:
The fiction was designed in part to illustrate the spiritual questions posed by Campbell, Watts, at al; throwing it out and expecting everyone to relate to the source material without the intermediary metaphor is a waste of what could be valuable and relatable teaching tools.

I agree with Arisaig's point - without the fiction, it's just another NRM mish-mash trying to do what traditional religions aren't satisfactorily accomplishing. As long as it is using the name "Jedi", there is going to be a relationship to what that stands for in 99% of the world, which is the Star Wars franchise. I don't see a problem with that, because quite obviously (based on the number of people I've seen sincerely coming here for spiritual purposes in the past month), there's a lot of us who find something unique and meaningful in it. Separating it out from role-playing IS important, as there's also a good chunk who - despite the FAQ and the big statements in large bold type on the home page - want to play out characters from the fiction rather than doing the work.

To me, the only real difference in this and most of the esoteric-oriented orders out there (including those who've been around for centuries) is that we don't claim a historical base for our philosophy/spirituality, as do Rosicrucians, Neo-Templars, Gnostics, etc. All of them draw some sort of initial model from something they've found in the historical story (and that story itself becomes fictitious from age to age, depending on what is known of the history at the time), and then build their techniques and philosophies, their rule of life, from it. Even traditional religions with a historical founder work on shreds of lore/scriptures, the interpretation of it, and patch in cultural mores for the rest. So...some people are never going to understand that this is as legitimate as anything else, and that's to be expected. One can always just go be a scientist and explore life that way if one wants to strip all but the quantifiable from it.

As for the lightsabers and robes - well, most of the martial arts schools out there practice with weapons that would not be used in real-life scenarios and many of them wear "pajamas" (or more respectfully, uniforms which recall the cultural/historical setting in which their arts were born). As long as you know what you're getting from the training, I do see any reason not to have a little fun. Personally, I find the power that the myth has to inspire and delight - especially for the future generations - to be part of the appeal that keeps me intrigued.