What would help the Temple Be A Better Place? Suggestions please...

Manu wrote: For the person joining, what meaning does it hold to become an official member if they have not done the IP, which helps understand the basics of what this site is? A flashy "Jedi" title?

I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

And I don't know what I did to make that all be a quote, lol. Sorry if it's confusing

Edan wrote:

How/why would this Temple act differently?

If you went to the same church for 2 years every Sunday and more, would you still consider yourself a guest even if you hadn't taken confirmation or been christened? There are members here who have been so for years without the IP.. do we really consider them 'guests'? I personally don't think so.

If you went to the same church every Sunday for 2 years, having read the book or not, you have likely "learned" quite a bit in that exposure to their sermons that would supplant the whole membership/guest question anyway and essentially impart upon you the teachings that you might learn on your own otherwise. In the traditional sense, you have probably been asked to make monetary donations, tithing, and the such by this point, and have thus more or less fulfilled the basic requirements of "membership".

I see here though how the whole question gets distorted by the other condition where, if you have been a member of a specific church your whole life, but only show up for Christmas and Easter...while identifying as a Christian, or the like, and claiming to be a member of that church...are you really? No, the pastor isn't likely to kick you out for not showing up more, or make you pay treble when you do show, you'll remain on their rolls even with years of gaps in appearance, as a member.

Senan : I appreciate that explanation as well. Inclusion and the whole "open door" approach are rather crucial to any institution. I for one actually pondered for a few weeks over whether I wanted to submit the application to become a "member" or simply remain as a "guest" anyway, since I could still do the IP either way. I hesitated namely because the application asked for some rather personal information that I am not generally a fan of sharing over the internet. In the end, having gotten my nose into the IP enough, realizing this was a place that had a lot to offer me, I shrugged off the question of what it was I was getting myself into and whether the personally satisfying notion of being accepted as a "member" would be worth the implied risk.

In the end, perhaps the whole thing is getting a bit too attached to the rank and title question and ignoring the value of being and effort? These are mere words we are utilizing to explain a concept or level of participation, and they are not themselves indicative of one's own path anyway. To the extent either or neither differentiate little other than a personal commitment, I don't know that the "guest/member" question is truly an issue. My primary driving point was that as a "guest" trying to test the waters of the Temple with little other responses aside from "Welcome, check out the FAQ and IP, and PM me if you have questions" is a somewhat lame duck way of allowing people to find the Temple, understand what is offered here, and then decide whether or not they type in the URL again without actually getting a clear coat portrait of "What" the Temple is and "What" it is not.

Perhaps rather than separating the whole issue, or requiring this or that, are far more basic, user friendly, "Introduction" presentation/video of sorts could help answer those simple questions we all had the first day we happened upon the Temple.

Edan wrote:

Manu wrote:

ReallyRiver wrote: I can only speak for myself of course, but to me it's very meaningful indeed. Largely because of physical and mental health issues, I reckon the IP will take me between 6-12 months. I've only done two journal posts that are lessons. But I feel very much like part of the community. I'm a *member* of the community regardless of how many planned lessons I've done. I've done a heck of a lot of extracurricular learning here that is important too. To be told I can't be officially called a member of the community until I've done a certain amount of learning on particular topics in a particular way would, for me, be pretty disheartening.

But why?

To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

See, that's the important part for me. At the moment you can just buy the shirt, never watch a match, never learn a player's name, and you're in the member's bar. The IP is the learning which underpins membership having any value beyond waiting a week and filling in a form. Literally anyone can become a Member by waiting a week. To me that's not meaningfully distinct from Guest status, and makes the distinction seem a little worthless to me. I'm into ranks only being used when they mean something, and the member rank means "I'm a Guest who waited a week".

I'm also not seeing the stigma attached to Guest rank others seem to be describing... Guests are not outsiders, they are just not very involved in the training we do here. That's fine and they're very welcome, but the ranks represent levels of training... always. Except in the Guest>Member case.

Edit - I must echo Sam though... whilst this is an interesting discussion I don't feel it to be one of the more pressing matters facing us as a Temple, just that on the face of it, it's an idea I see some merit in.

Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism. To be honest, none of the IP options are the way I best learn. I best learn through conversation and connection, so I've been doing a lot of PMing, a lot of asking questions, a lot of listening in on the chat and the forums. In short, I've been doing a lot of learning what it is to be a Jedi.

But this hasn't translated into my IP lessons progressing much. Given the three options this far, reading is easiest for me, but it's still difficult. Not because I don't adore the material but because my particular set of brains just doesn't work that way.

But I am, imo, a member here. I've been given assignments/suggestions by higher ups, and completed them. I've studied in my own way. Maybe there should be criteria for being a member, but I don't think it should be something as massive as the IP (and to me it does feel almost overwhelmingly massive). Maybe an essay/article/ sermon with ten or fifteen questions to answer...

Perhaps we should split the discussion of rank to another thread so as to avoid drowning other unrelated suggestions in the deluge of opinions?

The simplest solution may be to simply do away with the Member rank.
If you're just here to look around until you decide to commit; you're a Guest.
If you decide this really is for you, you've probably fulfilled the current requirements for Novice anyway.

Maybe completing Lesson 1 as a requirement for submitting an application is reasonable; maybe it's not. Not everyone who comes here can study like a full time student.
I like to think I've been reasonably active here since I joined, though I posted little at the outset until I began to feel more accepted as a 'member' of TotJO, but I've only just completed Lesson 1 and it has taken 9 months, because.. well... life. For some this is a small hurdle, easily overcome, on the path to being a member; for others it could well see them give up.

That's why I suggested in my previous post that our Knights/Apprentices could draft some Original TotJO material as a 'Jediism 101'. An introductory lesson or 'IP Lite' would ensure those that sign up know what they're signing up to without requiring onerous amounts of study to determine if this is their path or not. I think making that a requirement rather than the entire IP ticks the boxes for ensuring those that join know what they're joining while not 'indoctrinating' everyone by forcing them to complete more in depth studies. Remember: not every member of a catholic church trains to be a priest, it's enough to learn some prayers/hymns, the commandments and be an active participant in the church. (It actually bothers me how much I rely on mainstream religion to illustrate comparative points - I may need professional help.)


On the subject of Apprentices and the IP, my suggestion was for Apprentices to facilitate discussion among Novices before the Novices complete their individual responses.
By way of analogy, the Apprentice would be the fitness coach running a group fitness class where the participants are responsible for their own efforts under some basic guidance whereas a Knight is like the personal trainer working one on one to ensure their Apprentice is lifting the correct weights in the manner that is best for them as an individual.

Edan wrote: To use a crude simile... it would be like buying a football shirt for your team, learning all the players' names and histories, but not being allowed in the members' bar while everyone else sits inside and talks about the latest match while you're outside with your pint wondering why nobody will let you in.

But that is not how people act here. Member or not, everyone is cheering you to come in and celebrate. I've never seen anyone's opinion dismissed simply because they had "Guest" under their name.

I'm not interested in making things exclusive. Openness is a good thing. After reading through quite a few replies, I've changed my position regarding the confidentiality of the IP. But also make titles have value.

ReallyRiver wrote: Why would it be disheartening to not be called a "member"? Because - and I'm not nay saying the IP here, I do think it's an important part of the learning offered - the IP isn't the only way to learn about Jediism.

That doesn't really answer the question, though. I understand that there are many ways to learn about Jediism. But how is being a "guest" distinct from being a "member". What changed?

I made a new thread, Rank Names and Are They Important, which I'll answer in