Failure of Feminism

Have any of you heard of the topless demonstrations we had in Rochester New York years ago?

Or our Susan B Anthony?

I stumbled across this and found it interesting...

I don't remember, but there may be some harsh language in it. I don't think there is, but I can't remember.



My bad... near the end there are lots of swear words .

Hypatia wrote: "Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them."

Feminism predominantly focuses on the equality of women. That's because the majority of people in feminist groups are women, and people are primarily going to fight for what is relevant to them personally. That isn't to say feminist groups don't occasionally focus on men's issues, it's just that they find fighting for women-specific rights more pertinent because, well, they're women and a lack of women's rights affects them more than a lack of men's rights.


One thing I've noticed, is the majority of people complaining about the inequalities men face, focus their energy on attacking the feminist movement, rather than specifically advocating for their rights or even joining forces with the feminist movement to bring about equal rights between the genders. Because ultimately, people who want equal rights for men, and people who want equal rights for women, are for the most part fighting the same thing: patriarchal values.

Don't flip out over that word, hear me out. Patriarchy isn't a system where "men always have it better than women" or where men are never disadvantaged. It's a system that just popped up because people thought it would help society function optimally. Let's have men go off to fight, let's have women stay home and take care of babies- men are stronger, women are more maternal, right? This system favored men for positions of power, thus, patriarchy.

Some common assumptions that drive patriarchy are that:
Men are stronger than women
Men are better able to fight than women
Women are better parents than men
Women are less aggressive than men

Some of these things have grains of truth in them: men typically are physically stronger than women, and women, due to conditioning, typically are more attentive when it comes to childcare. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be judged by traits common to their sex. Lots of women are badass fighters, lots of men are devoted parents. Those people shouldn't be pidgeonholed regarding what they can and can't do because of generalizations of their traits based on their sex.

I think what a lot of people should notice, is that the majority of things men complain about stem from these same patriarchal assumptions about men:

Why don't people care domestic abuse against men? Because people don't believe men, as the "stronger" sex, could be abused by a woman.

Why don't men receive custody of their children more often? Because "men can't take care of children as well as women"

Why can't men have the same type of paternity leave as women's maternity leave? Because "dads aren't as useful for caring for babies like moms are."

Why are men the ones who have to go fight in the front lines? Because "men are the people best for fighting."

It's not feminists not fighting for men's rights that is the problem, it's the system we live in and the stereotypes it supports and propagates.

Slightly OT, but I think the Men's Right movement has a lot of valid points, it's just that for the most part they are attacking the entirely wrong people- people who have the potential to be their allies. How complaining about feminists will get guys equal rights is beyond me.

Equality should not be a battle between different groups, in the hope of gaining a compromise. That's conflict. Feminism encourages conflict. It's not for feminists to give men rights. In fact some feminists clearly think of their gender as the superior one. you see little girls talking about how they want a career and won't let men/boys get in the way... little girls! Worrying about careers! When I was small i didn't want a career, I wanted to play. In fact, i didn't know what a career was. Or cared. feminism is a hostile communitarian movement. It should not be crushed by an opposing hostile communitarian movement.

regarding the history of "patriarchy": you are quite correct. Not so long ago. everyone or nearly everyone was a peasant. people didn't get married in churches or government buildings. there was no specific role, everyone had to do what they could around the house/field/pigsty/children. Things changed with the industrial revolution. People had to work away from home. the work was hard. Someone needed to look after the children, and support the one that was working in the industry. The word "manager" comes from french "ménagère" which means "homemaker".


When it comes to discrimination, one thing to look at is the right to vote. In my country, after the revolution in 1789, only tax payers had the right to vote. A single household counted as a single taxpayer and therefore had a single vote. Since the men were usually the ones paying the taxes, they were also the ones getting to vote.

Hello Ms. Author, nice to see you....

I hope you are going to be around for a while, I see you come and go, and sometimes never post...:dry:

Some of what was said was said in jest, although it can be tough to see, it is there...

If you dont mind, I would like to ask a few things...

Sapadu wrote: Given their Author's interest and involvement with feminism, nobody was surprised when she started to type up a response.

So, I would consider you something of an expert... KNowing way more than myself... I cant say if you know more than the others, only an expert to me...

"Trayvon Martin was shot a year ago, today." This stunned a few people into silence.

"Because in the case of his shooting and murder, race was a big part of the equation, as well as the 'Stand your ground' laws and gun violence.

All of those became feminist issues in a few ways --

one, racism factors a great deal into a lot of sexism

,

mostly in the invisible systems such as housing, healthcare, and economic disparities.

Two, gun violence disproportionately effects… guess which denomination here?"

Jack had started to draw a rough graph with different circles reading 'race'

'class'

'religion'

and 'sex'

all overlapping with an enormous shaded in spot in the middle.

"…Women of color?" James guessed.

"Low-income women of color." Jack further specified,

"Whom are more likely to experience violence at the hands of their partners, AND live in areas which do not have resources for them to run away or seek protection…

do I need to go on?" James shook his head, "So… matters of racial discrimination are feminist issues.

So are such things as healthcare laws -- not just for the reproductive rights, but also for insurance purposes,

as a majority of jobs populated by women are no only low wage, but have no insurance, and do not allow for sick leave. So, you get sick? You either come to work or lose your job, and forget about seeing a doctor.

Your kid sick? Have their older sibling skip school to stay with them, or -- my favorite -- bring them to work with you.

There's marriage laws -- LGBT rights are a feminist issue,

and if you're an LGBT couple who's trying to jump through the hoops of the IMMIGRATION system? Well, you're just SOL in the US."

There was a hush over the room.

"See, THAT'S the stuff I get mad about -- because there IS something wrong, both culture and law-wise. But this…" Jack gestured to the screen, then shook her head, as though exhausted, "…No… come on guys… stop… I feel sorry for you, the way you're all making yourselves look so stupid…"

Now, I quoted your whole post, breaking it into things that seemed to jump out...

Let me say, according to a quick google search, slightly, and I mean slightly, in the worlds population, men out number women...

Although scientists seem to disagree, it seems most of the info I found says its 1:1.06 female to male... Pretty negligible in my opinion...

SO, since just about every other person is of the opposite sex, it seems we are rather intertwined....

Few of the topics you brought up affect women disproportionately, and none affect women solely...

If it does not affect men, then it would be a feminist issue... Because it would only affect women....

So, as none of these issues seem to affect only women, it would seem these are human issues...

Yes, women are affected by most, if not all issues, affect women in some way... And yet it also affects men....

Being a black women affects men, because their wife, sister, mother could be a woman, (I went for humor, )... But also because they are black... Which, in all seriousness of the world

The mistake so many make, I think, is to forget we are interdependent... Maybe codependent, lol, Im not sure...

Stand for what you I have no qualms about that, but dont think because I approach it with an air of comedy, I have not considered these issues...

I make jokes about cancer... My father in law loves them, as he is currently dealing with lung cancer, and the humor is appreciated...

I joke about prostrate cancer, being a man, I have this as a potential life altering event... No trouble yet, butt, ya never know (see what I did there, )

If you think me uninformed, dont feel bad for me, lets discuss it...

Incedently, I love women, think the world of them... Have I ever been the reason for one to fear men? Me, particularly? Yes, to my shame, I have...

This isnt a 'cut and dried' issue that so many would like it to be...

If you would like to discuss aspects of any of this, I am always looking for a good conversation...

If not, maybe another time...

Interesting about the voting thing. In the US freed slaves, the men of course, were able to vote before women. Women weren't considered citizens (or if they were, second class). They weren't people in the noraml sense. They had no rights, they couldn't own land, vote, they were discouraged when it came to school and learning, and they were frowned upon if they had interests outside the home.

And the only reason women were allowed to vote was because WY needed more "citizens" to be able to apply for statehood. However, WY then did go on to pioneer womens rights allowing them into governement. So even if it started for a lame reason (I guess we'll make women citzens...if we have to) the state grew in acceptance.

What's interesting is I hear some guys frowning upon conflict, but the only way slaves obtained their rights as people and citizens was through conflict. Same as women and anybody else who chose to be treated better. People don't just give you freedom or rights. You have to go out and "take them" for yourself. So yeah, conflict will always be a part of growth.

Now, I agree a lot of the conflict and fighting is stupid especially in the western world. Some women and men have gone too far and are just whining. In other countries, however, where women are still creatures to be owned and controlled, well, that's where the conflict might be needed.

Also, I keep hearing some guys bash the word feminism. It's such a hateful word these days...But did you know the term was made up by a guy?

Rickie The Grey wrote: Have any of you heard of the topless demonstrations we had in Rochester New York years ago?

Her's a link

http://articles.philly.com/1986-06-28/news/26044009_1_women-charge-equal-rights-waist

and here is the link for Women's Rights National historical Park that some of the women above volunteered for back then

http://www.nps.gov/wori/planyourvisit/index.htm

It was a big thing back then.

Rickie The Grey wrote:

Rickie The Grey wrote: Have any of you heard of the topless demonstrations we had in Rochester New York years ago?

Her's a link

http://articles.philly.com/1986-06-28/news/26044009_1_women-charge-equal-rights-waist

Haha, I agree it's a silly law. And if someone wants to go bare chested, then why not? The problem is they don't have enough supporters. A lot of women (including me) don't want to pop their shirts...and a lot of people would think it crass to do so. But it shouldn't be a crime to take off your shirt...I mean, come on.

[/quote]

Haha, I agree it's a silly law. And if someone wants to go bare chested, then why not? The problem is they don't have enough supporters. A lot of women (including me) don't want to pop their shirts...and a lot of people would think it crass to do so. But it shouldn't be a crime to take off your shirt...I mean, come on.[/quote]

What's ironic is women were topless on an informal section of beach on the lake near by and no one was getting arrested. O right they weren't gay.

Hay I don't care topless is topless for me. In Europe at the same time period and earlier topless was common and no one cared. Well I did when I was in Europe at age 17.

Wendaline wrote: Interesting about the voting thing. In the US freed slaves, the men of course, were able to vote before women. Women weren't considered citizens (or if they were, second class). They weren't people in the noraml sense. They had no rights, they couldn't own land, vote, they were discouraged when it came to school and learning, and they were frowned upon if they had interests outside the home.

And the only reason women were allowed to vote was because WY needed more "citizens" to be able to apply for statehood. However, WY then did go on to pioneer womens rights allowing them into governement. So even if it started for a lame reason (I guess we'll make women citzens...if we have to) the state grew in acceptance.

What's interesting is I hear some guys frowning upon conflict, but the only way slaves obtained their rights as people and citizens was through conflict. Same as women and anybody else who chose to be treated better. People don't just give you freedom or rights. You have to go out and "take them" for yourself. So yeah, conflict will always be a part of growth.

Now, I agree a lot of the conflict and fighting is stupid especially in the western world. Some women and men have gone too far and are just whining. In other countries, however, where women are still creatures to be owned and controlled, well, that's where the conflict might be needed.

Also, I keep hearing some guys bash the word feminism. It's such a hateful word these days...But did you know the term was made up by a guy?

Obviously in places the conflict is needed. Over here, it needs to stop. It is a strange world we live in. we have so many different laws depending on where we live. yet, we all live everywhere (thanks to the media and the internet).

Look at the top freedom movement. personally I want it to succeed. I'm heterosexual, I see way more man-boobs than woman-boobs. Why?

If I live in a country that traditionally [strike]allows women to be top free[/strike] does not care about boobs, can my culture be legal on facebook? Is a picture of my top-free family considered "nudity"? Does it mean that everything I look at on TV/internet will have to be censored? What will my children grow up to be like when exposed to this?

I'm beginning to think globalization and democracy (the right of the people to gorvern themselves) are not compatible. We'd be better off on our own (as in, have separate countries with different law/culture, not the global culture), with free movement, with meritocratic suffrage where only people who have shown love/appreciation/identification with the culture can ever be allowed to govern it, as opposed to the current system which is based on inheritance and governance of the land.



What's really frustrating is that we don't have a time machine to make things right to begin with (we could even use our superior technology to prevent major wars! And famine! And convert everyone to Jediism! )

" The women insist that if men got used to seeing them in their natural state from the waist up, rapes would decrease. Nobody would even look at them twice after a while, the women suggest."

probably true. Girls, that padded bra is your worst enemy. Seriously, how can you expect a guy to enjoy the real thing when all of them expect to find something that has the shape (and "height") of the foam in your bra? take it off already. Only wear it when you need it. stop making your bodies look like a shape they are not an cannot possibly be like! the human body does not naturally contain foam! breasts are not spherical!

Never getting what you expect to get only leads to frustration. Frustration leads to social ill, social ill leads to crime.