Failure of Feminism

ren wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Why are you such a liar? Putting words in my mouth and all? This is exactly why I admire prostitutes for their honesty and not the self-appointed "strong women who are wrongly labelled bitches". (note: "strong" men don't bitch, they're quiet)


And please, tell me more about that equal work thing. You see I've worked alongside men who were doing 12 hour long night shifts every night of the week at -25c only to see half their earnings go to their ex-wife. I've yet to meet a woman who does that (there certainly wasn't one to be found there. I was told there was one who'd applied a few years back but didnt last the night)

Let's talk employment figures. Why is it that such a big part of the workforce is male, yet when you visit the jobcentre, there again you mostly see men? where are the poor unemployed women? Doing the nasty chores of taking the kid to school, pouring powder in the washing machine and pressing a button? Washing the floor with that yucky soapy water? Bitch please. I do all this stuff, make my own sandwiches thankyouverymuch, earn some money, pay the bills, pay for the meals out, the gym memberships the childcare, everything... And I don't bitch. In fact I think I live pretty well.

Oh and the pregnant thing? I think you'll find it's mostly women who want children. In fact I'm very sure this is the one reason why employers are put off women for important posts. Personally I learned this when all my most important teachers in my most important years started getting pregnant at the most important time. Great when you're hoping to get an education.

Only once did I make the mistake of trusting a woman on the pill. Fortunately the Force was with me and it ended in a miscarriage. Lol when I asked my grandmother for advice she told me I was screwed.

These two stories are pretty much the reason why I don't want to get married and haven't jizzed in a vagina in years.


Thanks for reinforcing my views wendaline.

Ummm....You're welcome :laugh: I hope that's sarcasm because that's what the first half of my post was. I thought all those smilies would get that point across. Hohum hohum. Live and learn.

But as for the work thing, give me a break. At my job I work anywhere from 10-24 hours a day usually averaging 19 hours a day from May-October. And we're lucky if we get a day off every 10 days or so. Except I also get to listen to truckers tell me about that hot piece they (wished) they had and maybe I'd like to too? (no) Or they tell me that I couldn't possibly know what a gasket is or that I don't know how to run my equiptment (they don't even work there!) and they usually end up trying to "show" me how to use it properly all the while I'm yelling "No, no, no!" because they're going to break something and/or douse us in 180 degree tar. Woo! It's a rodeo.

But that's just some guys. Most of the guys I work with are perfectly awesome people. And they have their strengths (fixing motors and brute strength) while I have mine (I'm smaller so I fit into all the nooks and crannies that need cleaning and I'm also not afraid of heights like the guys are *though I secretly am* so I get to go up to all the high places and fix stuff). Where one of us is weak the other is strong and that makes for a pretty good team.

And as for kids, I figure that's split down the middle. I know plently of guys who want to settle down and have kids, while the ladies I know are shaking their heads no. Not all women want kids and not all women are good with them. For instance, if my sister ever gets married I know she would LOVE it if her hubby would be a stay at home dad (yay stay at home dads!!!) It's a personality thing, not a sex thing.

But maybe this discussion isn't about men's rights vs. women's. Maybe it's just an ego thing (How dare those teachers decide to have families! Didn't they know you are much more important than they are?) I blame the labels. What I see is that it ticks off the group who thinks they're going to lose rights and/or power.

When you give respect that doesn't mean you lose respect (in fact it's just the opposite).



Jestor, thank you! My sister and I took it. We thought it'd be funny.

UMMM, Jestor? Sarcasm? I'm no he-man, or any better than anyone, never claimed to be. Did I miss your point, or was that a jab?

Point being that any test, for any job, should be set for the job requirements, not the race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender, of any person or group of people.

Should have stuck to my first instinct.

Wendaline. My first hand experience of men at work comes from my father. it means going to work december 25 if/when necessary. taking work back home. getting ready hours earlier than usual because it snowed. etc.

It's dedication. Personally I feel those teachers did screw us over. no sense of dedication, unfit to teach. they planned to get pregnant at the best time for them (maximize their holiday/money) which was the worst time for us (basically we ended up with no teacher). To me this type of behaviour is unforgivable. And by unforgivable i mean "fine, let's go NK style and just shoot them".Maybe I've been influenced by my time in the military and become intolerant of people who put personal gain first. I don't know.

I live in a country where men have to work 5 years more than women, despite living shorter lives. As a taxpayer (and therefore the guy who funds pensions), this does not please me. at all.

The fact is, whenever I hear about "the poor women" having to do "woman work" and tolerate their man's flu and whatever it makes me cringe. Because you know what? the example you gave (sarcastically), is something that I do. And I would kill to get the benefit of doing nothing all day but take the kids to school, wash some clothes, the house, do shopping, cook and get money from someone else for doing it. and have them treat me to meals out and stuff. Because right now I do all this stuff for free, I pay for the meals out and still gotta find a way to pay for other things. the cliché of the poor female gender role isn't just inaccurate, it's plain wrong. It is luxury I wish I had the opportunity to experience.

Phortis Nespin wrote: UMMM, Jestor? Sarcasm? I'm no he-man, or any better than anyone, never claimed to be. Did I miss your point, or was that a jab?

Point being that any test, for any job, should be set for the job requirements, not the race, religion, sexual orientation, or gender, of any person or group of people.

Should have stuck to my first instinct.

Oh!!

Definitely teasing you buddy...

Always look for me to silly first, serious second...)

Given their Author's interest and involvement with feminism, nobody was surprised when she started to type up a response.

"Everyone take cover! She's going to BLOW!" Tom hollered, more than deliberately throwing in some crude puns. Nobody flinched, except for Tom divebombing behind the couch as Jack started to calmly and quietly type.

"…I'm sensing a disturbing lack of rage from you…" Daline murmured, her hand on Jack's head as though she could sense their author's emotions. The fact that they were all figments of Jack's imagination might have also had something to do with that.

"…I…" Jack paused, "…There is no rage in me for this. I read everyone else's comments and the most I can conjure up is pity and shame… on THEIR behalves. I can say with absolute certainty that nobody whom has posted before me knows what the feminist movement is about, could name a single feminist issue being discussed at the moment, and probably doesn't even REALIZE that they don't know."

James, whom, if you'll remember, was pretty stereotypical American, drew himself up in a huff.

"Oh YEAH?" He pouted, "What's a 'feminist issue' being discussed right now, oh-all-knowing one?" Jack shot him a look that clearly said 'Watch it or I'll have your character get hit by a truck.'

"Trayvon Martin was shot a year ago, today." This stunned a few people into silence.

"…Oh…" James went appropriately quiet, and then… "…How's that a feminist issue?"

"Because in the case of his shooting and murder, race was a big part of the equation, as well as the 'Stand your ground' laws and gun violence. All of those became feminist issues in a few ways -- one, racism factors a great deal into a lot of sexism, mostly in the invisible systems such as housing, healthcare, and economic disparities. Two, gun violence disproportionately effects… guess which denomination here?" Jack had started to draw a rough graph with different circles reading 'race' 'class' 'religion' and 'sex' all overlapping with an enormous shaded in spot in the middle.

"…Women of color?" James guessed.

"Low-income women of color." Jack further specified, "Whom are more likely to experience violence at the hands of their partners, AND live in areas which do not have resources for them to run away or seek protection… do I need to go on?" James shook his head, "So… matters of racial discrimination are feminist issues. So are such things as healthcare laws -- not just for the reproductive rights, but also for insurance purposes, as a majority of jobs populated by women are no only low wage, but have no insurance, and do not allow for sick leave. So, you get sick? You either come to work or lose your job, and forget about seeing a doctor. Your kid sick? Have their older sibling skip school to stay with them, or -- my favorite -- bring them to work with you. There's marriage laws -- LGBT rights are a feminist issue, and if you're an LGBT couple who's trying to jump through the hoops of the IMMIGRATION system? Well, you're just SOL in the US."

There was a hush over the room.

"See, THAT'S the stuff I get mad about -- because there IS something wrong, both culture and law-wise. But this…" Jack gestured to the screen, then shook her head, as though exhausted, "…No… come on guys… stop… I feel sorry for you, the way you're all making yourselves look so stupid…"

Ren, I understand where you're coming from and that really sucks about the extra 5 years thing...not sure we do that here but I don't know.

I guess my point is that not all women are like that. No all women want to use men. And the spoiled take me out to dinner/buy me things mentality isn't just a woman trait. I've met more than a few guys who are "taken care of" by their girlfriends or wives. I've also met women just as lazy...but most the people I meet are hard working and fairly honest.

And it's not only guys who get ticked off by "evil" women. I hate it when I see good guys getting taken advantage of too. I also hate it when good women are taken advantage of.

People are people. There's good in bad in both.

Ignorance isn't stupidity. In my first post I pointed out I don't know anything about the movement.

That and there are also lots of different takes on "the movement". There is no right answer.

there is a right answer: it shouldn't exist. Feminism is by definition sexist. And quite frankly, if they do indeed put their nose in other people's business (like the relationship of homosexual men, as sapadu suggests), it should actively be sought and destroyed.



Wendaline I am by no means suggesting everyone is like that... It's a "trend" I have noticed. Feminists are man haters who are creating conflict. "the amazing atheist" has a few videos about feminism. quite enlightening.

Sure, there's also the old fashioned feminists, the hairy, makeup-free top-free kind, which are OK. But I have not met a single guy who demands women wear nipple covers (lol this is so retarded), makeup, or has them remove their hair. So those kind of feminists really only have to battle other women ( and in the case of top freedom in public spaces, the government)(and then again I'm pretty sure it's mostly other women who do not approve). And are therefore not fighting against the discrimination of women by non-women, but fighting their own gender's bigotry.

"Feminism is the idea that we can make both sexes equal by focusing solely on the issues of one of them."

Feminism predominantly focuses on the equality of women. That's because the majority of people in feminist groups are women, and people are primarily going to fight for what is relevant to them personally. That isn't to say feminist groups don't occasionally focus on men's issues, it's just that they find fighting for women-specific rights more pertinent because, well, they're women and a lack of women's rights affects them more than a lack of men's rights.


One thing I've noticed, is the majority of people complaining about the inequalities men face, focus their energy on attacking the feminist movement, rather than specifically advocating for their rights or even joining forces with the feminist movement to bring about equal rights between the genders. Because ultimately, people who want equal rights for men, and people who want equal rights for women, are for the most part fighting the same thing: patriarchal values.

Don't flip out over that word, hear me out. Patriarchy isn't a system where "men always have it better than women" or where men are never disadvantaged. It's a system that just popped up because people thought it would help society function optimally. Let's have men go off to fight, let's have women stay home and take care of babies- men are stronger, women are more maternal, right? This system favored men for positions of power, thus, patriarchy.

Some common assumptions that drive patriarchy are that:
Men are stronger than women
Men are better able to fight than women
Women are better parents than men
Women are less aggressive than men

Some of these things have grains of truth in them: men typically are physically stronger than women, and women, due to conditioning, typically are more attentive when it comes to childcare. However, that doesn't mean that everyone needs to be judged by traits common to their sex. Lots of women are badass fighters, lots of men are devoted parents. Those people shouldn't be pidgeonholed regarding what they can and can't do because of generalizations of their traits based on their sex.

I think what a lot of people should notice, is that the majority of things men complain about stem from these same patriarchal assumptions about men:

Why don't people care domestic abuse against men? Because people don't believe men, as the "stronger" sex, could be abused by a woman.

Why don't men receive custody of their children more often? Because "men can't take care of children as well as women"

Why can't men have the same type of paternity leave as women's maternity leave? Because "dads aren't as useful for caring for babies like moms are."

Why are men the ones who have to go fight in the front lines? Because "men are the people best for fighting."

It's not feminists not fighting for men's rights that is the problem, it's the system we live in and the stereotypes it supports and propagates.

Slightly OT, but I think the Men's Right movement has a lot of valid points, it's just that for the most part they are attacking the entirely wrong people- people who have the potential to be their allies. How complaining about feminists will get guys equal rights is beyond me.