Five Questions for Jedi Knights

Forgive me for jumping in on this thread, but I am curious as to why this is such an issue for you SoulSeeker?

Plus, you may want to check your definition of what a 'Knight' actually is. Because the title of 'Knight' is from the Old English cniht ('Servant'). The term Knighthood is also from the Old English cnihthad which was the period between childhood and manhood until the 1300's. It only shifted to a military term after the 100 years war. You can check the online etymology dictionary for clarification if needs be.

Not only that but there were a few ways in which a person could become a knight. The first way was the normal course of action for the son of a noble:

Concerning the period between childhood and manhood, when a boy was eight years old, he was sent to the neighbouring castle where he was trained as a page. The boy was usually the son of a knight or of a member of the aristocracy. He spent most of his time strengthening his body, wrestling and riding horses. He also learned how to fight with a spear and a sword. He practised against a wooden dummie called a quintain. It was essentially a heavy sack or dummie in the form of a human. It was hung on a wooden pole along with a shield. The young page had to hit the shield in its center. When hit, the whole structure would spin around and around. The page had to maneuver away quickly without getting hit. The young man was also taught more civilized topics. He would be taught to read and write by a schoolmaster. He could also be taught some Latin and French. The lady of the castle taught the page to sing and dance and how to behave in the king’s court.

At the age of fifteen or sixteen, a boy became a squire in service to a knight. His duties included dressing the knight in the morning, serving all of the knight’s meals, caring for the knight’s horse, and cleaning the knight’s armour and weapons. He followed the knight to tournaments and assisted his lord on the battlefield. A squire also prepared himself by learning how to handle a sword and lance while wearing forty pounds of armour and riding a horse. When he was about twenty, a squire could become a knight after proving himself worthy. A lord would agree to knight him in a dubbing ceremony. The night before the ceremony, the squire would dress in a white tunic and red robes. He would then fast and pray all night for the purification of his soul. The chaplain would bless the future knight's sword and then lay it on the chapel or church's altar. Before dawn, he took a bath to show that he was pure, and he dressed in his best clothes. When dawn came, the priest would hear the young man's confession, a Catholic contrition rite. The squire would then eat breakfast. Soon the dubbing ceremony began. The outdoor ceremony took place in front of family, friends, and nobility. The squire knelt in front of the lord, who tapped the squire lightly on each shoulder with his sword and proclaimed him a knight. This was symbolic of what occurred in earlier times. In the earlier middle ages, the person doing the dubbing would actually hit the squire forcefully, knocking him over. After the dubbing, a great feast followed with music and dancing.

A young man could also become a knight for valour in combat after a battle or sometimes before a battle to help him gain courage.

So for the most part, until the term became corrupted, a Knight was a Servant, someone who is 'learning the ropes' so to speak. It is a period of intellectual and spiritual growth, and then, when the individual had proven themselves worthy, they were Knighted. Which fits perfectly with the TotJO.

Sajjad Heydari wrote:
Well, Jediism is changed a bit, when it turned from fiction to real! As you can see in star wars, Siths, are completely opposite of Jedi, while in TOTJO FAQ, it's written that 'Sith' is one of 6th rites.

In star wars, there is no such a thing as clergy, or weekly sermons or live services or whatever, while here, on TOTJO, we have all of them. You know what I mean?

Oh, I'm perfectly aware of Jediism as a religion when compared to the Jedi of the Star Wars universe. Personally I find adhering to a fictional title odd, a bit like that kid on YouTube who thinks he's a SuperSaiyan, even if he didn't mean it in the sense of DragonBall. But the issue I'm bringing up is to do with the title of "knight": "knight" is not ficticious; it has a long-held tradition attatched to it, and a rich culture too. Just look at my conversation with Jestor and you'll see the point I'm trying to make.

Wescli Wardest wrote: without going through the training process how can one accurately judge the difficulty level of what anyone here goes through before they are awarded said title?

Wescli, no offence but somehow I doubt the Initiate's Program is quite as difficult as training in the military. Moving on.

Wescli Wardest wrote: So, let me see if I understand your concern… are you unhappy because the word “knight” is being used by a non-combative group as an honorary title for actions done?

I think you might want to re-read my points. There's no "concern", only curiosity. And it's not "combative" as opposed to "non-combative". A combative boxer might be a brilliant fighter, but it's not the same as a "knight". As I've already said, the term knight originally embodied risking life and limb in an act of valour. So, is someone who is knighted by Jedi superior to a true knight?

Wescli Wardest wrote: And if so… how do you feel about the Knights Templar? Just curious…

I think that ideals behind the organization were good ones, and I think that the founding members were noble for taking it upon themselves, with no funding, to defend the vulnerable. However I think that with its gradual development into a larger organizaion it lost the original ideals it had, which is unfortunate. Why do you ask?

RyuJin wrote: i am a knight of totjo, though i simply refer to myself as a jedi...if you want to take the lineage view...then by birthright i should be a knight...if you want to look at deeds...then i should be a knight...i defend those that can't or won't fight for themselves, i am kind to those in need, i place the safety of others before my own...i volunteered to serve on active duty during a time of war...after being discharged i've been given numerous offers to join the american legion, as well as the vfw (veterans of foreign wars)...yet i have not accepted those "rewards" (that's how i see them)...i served because i wanted to, not because wanted the benefits afterwards...i act selflessly because i feel it to be the right thing to do...in the end isn't that what knights do?...

Obviously I can't judge the truth of those claims, nor deem them false, without knowing you, but as I said before, deeds like that do embody what a knight is, or was, supposed to be. But which is more valid? Being knighted because you became an advocate of Jediism, or being knighted because of said deeds and lineage?

Sheuthem wrote: So for the most part, until the term became corrupted, a Knight was a Servant, someone who is 'learning the ropes' so to speak. It is a period of intellectual and spiritual growth, and then, when the individual had proven themselves worthy, they were Knighted. Which fits perfectly with the TotJO.

First let me say that it's refreshing to see someone so versed in the history of knights and knighthood. However, I must disagree with your point: you are comparing the "spiritual and intellectual growth" of Jediism to something that took several years of intense studies into linguistics and other things, as well as years of servitude to a lord, which taught humility, and even worth proven in war to, well... signing online for something, doing a bit of research in spare time for a while, and eventually getting the title. Just like that. So you see they're not the same thing- again, do you think a true knight would achknowledge a Jedi knight as an equal? So far no-one's answered this.

deeds and lineage are minor attributes of a knight...

a knight is a knight in their heart, and the heart of others...

to quote a movie " you tilt when you should withdraw and that is knightly...your people love you and that is knightly too"

But seriously SoulSeeker... it's just a word

As Wescli (kind of said), we could have chosen a lot of words, but we chose that one

We define what it means in our own way. We don't try to pass authority over that word over anyone else

A 'Knight' has shown dedication, knowledge, commitment and a willingness to learn and better themselves here

You could have exactly the same discussion about the term 'Master'

But the answer is the same... We define those within TotJO, we do not ask or look for the meaning of it anywhere else

Sajjad Heydari wrote: Well, Jediism is changed a bit, when it turned from fiction to real! As you can see in star wars, Siths, are completely opposite of Jedi, while in TOTJO FAQ, it's written that 'Sith' is one of 6th rites.

This information is, unfortunately, outdated and incorrect. The rites no longer exist. Sithism as with any philosophy/religion etc is treated the same way as any other philosophy/religion

Just a word, yes. But a word with connotations. I just want to take this chance to say I'm by no means offended and don't see it as an issue, and hope I haven't offended anyone else as, I will state a point plainly even if it makes others uncomfortable. I respect you enough to not "baby" you, but have a civil discussion. Really, I am just curious. Also I think most of my points have been answered; Desolous provided that the tradition of knighting has changed and evolved from what it was initially; and many have said that they conceive of the Jedi Knight as totally separate from the true knight.

However, there is at least one point that remains unanswered. That is that, in light of the illustrations given, how can a Jedi Knight be possibly said to be equal to the historical counterpart it desires to be like? I've already demonstrated that there is no act of bravery necessary to become a Jedi Knight; the education required is inferior to what was required of true knights, and the required dedication is also inferior, as true knights made a lifestyle out of their knightship from birth. There isn't even any physical training necessary. A Jedi Knight is basically what a true knight would be if everything were taken away from that knighthood except the oathe...

Now I know being a Jedi might improve people's attitudes etc. and I'm by no means saying it's "wrong" or "bad". Yet, many seem to feel that their knighthood is somehow equal with the ancient, traditional knighthood, and if you're really going to try and convince me that because you've done an online program, signed an oathe and been a member for a few months you're just the same as the "heroes of olde" then, sorry, but no. After all, that's a very big statement... and I don't think it's wrong to ask for the reasoning behind it.

The training I went through in the military was physically demanding. The training that the IP offers is mentally challenging, but that is not its point. The IP is to teach basic ideals and trains of thought to prepare the individual for life via Jediism and an apprenticeship if so desired. The training process I was referring to is far more in depth than just the IP.

So I took your counsel into consideration and looked at your original post.


SoulSeeker wrote:

In conclusion, the purpose of these questions aren't to intimidate or offend, but I *am* interested in how you see yourselves, especially those claiming the title of "knight" or above. What gives you the right and what makes you modern-day samurai warriors, monks and knights? (I'm going by what I read on the introduction page I can't speak for individual members)

Many memebrs have responded to your questions with valid, reasonable replies.

SoulSeeker wrote:

With the traditional knight there was a specific system in place, legally enforced, so that there were clear definitions of what a knight was and wasn't, and who was eligible to be one. However, Jedi knighting doesn't require an act of bravery. Again, no offence meant and let me explain what I mean in case you get the wrong idea: I'm sure if you are knighted as a Jedi you are expected to adhere to the ideals of bravery, courage and so on, and there is even an oathe. You may even be the very embodiment of those ideals. However, it doesn't require proof. The traditional knights could not be called knights unless they had proved themselves by an actual physical act of bravery, so that if you asked a true knight 'What caused you to be knighted?', they could tell you precicely what they had accomplished on the battlefield to achieve the title. There was no vagueness about it, no uncertainity.

Which is not entirely correct as I pointed out here…

But even the historical Knights where not all baptized by fire and were still awarded the title.

SoulSeeker wrote:

However, there is at least one point that remains unanswered. That is that, in light of the illustrations given, how can a Jedi Knight be possibly said to be equal to the historical counterpart it desires to be like? I've already demonstrated that there is no act of bravery necessary to become a Jedi Knight; the education required is inferior to what was required of true knights, and the required dedication is also inferior, as true knights made a lifestyle out of their knightship from birth. There isn't even any physical training necessary. A Jedi Knight is basically what a true knight would be if everything were taken away from that knighthood except the oathe...

Which I answered…

Our council bestows the title Jedi Knight on those that fit what that title entails. We are not just “knights” but modern knights of Jediism.

I understand being curious and I think that it is a good thing to be so. But when you ask a question you have to be willing to accept the answers given. Otherwise, why ask the question but to be “combative?”

Wescli Wardest wrote: The training I went through in the military was physically demanding. The training that the IP offers is mentally challenging, but that is not its point. The IP is to teach basic ideals and trains of thought to prepare the individual for life via Jediism and an apprenticeship if so desired. The training process I was referring to is far more in depth than just the IP.

That's nice, but doesn't address my question.

Wescli Wardest wrote: So I took your counsel into consideration and looked at your original post.

Many memebrs have responded to your questions with valid, reasonable replies.

No they haven't. So far not a single person has been able to answer as to whether their knighthood would be acknowledged by a true knight, or what makes their knighthood equal/superior. If any have feel free to quote them.

Wescli Wardest wrote: Which I answered…

Our council bestows the title Jedi Knight on those that fit what that title entails. We are not just “knights” but modern knights of Jediism.

No you didn't. The question was what makes you *equal* to the true knight, not "what is the nature of a Jedi Knight". And it was a question (primarily) in response to Jestor saying that Jedi Knights are equal to traditional knights.
Still waiting for an answer btw.

Wescli Wardest wrote: I understand being curious and I think that it is a good thing to be so. But when you ask a question you have to be willing to accept the answers given. Otherwise, why ask the question but to be “combative?”

Well, when you answer the question I'll stop asking it. How's that? And look, if you don't want to answer that's fine. If you want to say "fine- Jedi Knights are in no way equal or superior to real knights" that's fine too, you don't have to try and argue and it's not like anyone's going to hold it against you.
Btw what's *your* outtake on the Knights Templar? Just curious.

No, we are not equal to the "Knights of olde" in the way that an apple and and orange are not equal to each other...

(didnt like the positve, how about the negative way to say it? lol)

We know we are not equal to them, it has different requirements and definitions...

We are not trying to be them, we are trying to be us...

You are stuck on the olde tyme definition of a Knight, and thats according to you...

And what information you base your decisions and judgements on.. lol...

Where I would think:

Sheuthem wrote: Plus, you may want to check your definition of what a 'Knight' actually is. Because the title of 'Knight' is from the Old English cniht ('Servant'). The term Knighthood is also from the Old English cnihthad which was the period between childhood and manhood until the 1300's. It only shifted to a military term after the 100 years war. You can check the online etymology dictionary for clarification if needs be.

Wiki wrote: Samurai (侍?) [bu͍.ɕi̥] were the military nobility of pre-industrial Japan. According to translator William Scott Wilson: "In Chinese, the character 侍 was originally a verb meaning to wait upon or accompany persons in the upper ranks of society, and this is also true of the original term in Japanese, saburau. In both countries the terms were nominalized to mean "those who serve in close attendance to the nobility," the pronunciation in Japanese changing to saburai. According to Wilson, an early reference to the word "samurai" appears in the Kokin Wakashū (905–914), the first imperial anthology of poems, completed in the first part of the 10th century.[1]

Yea, I feel comfortable with that...

Im just here to serve my fellow men and women...

A true knight, would not judge me openly, for maybe my kingdom had less than his...

A "bully" knight might challenge me to a fight....

A true knight would show humility, chivalry, and compassion...

a "Bully" knight would not... Instead, snearing at my tarnished armor, and ragtag banners and flags...



Um, no one ask me, but I like templar knights... They cookies, right?

I asked…

By that same token… where are the current knights who would fall under that description?

As far as I have read, none of the members here have said that their titles are the same as those of old. In fact I tried to point out that we are not handing out “traditional" “knight hoods” but rather we are knights of Jediism. Which nothing in our doctrine claims that we have anything to do with the “traditional” knight. So, I am assuming that particular point wasn’t made clear. For that I apologize.

My outtake on the Knights Templar is probably different then most being that I was raised by one of their knights for years and groomed to be one. They’re ok… just not my particular “cup of tea.” That’s why I’m here.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

The training I went through in the military was physically demanding. The training that the IP offers is mentally challenging, but that is not its point. The IP is to teach basic ideals and trains of thought to prepare the individual for life via Jediism and an apprenticeship if so desired. The training process I was referring to is far more in depth than just the IP.

That's nice, but doesn't address my question.

I’m not sure I understand which question it is you are looking to have addressed?!?!?!?

SoulSeeker wrote: Well, when you answer the question I'll stop asking it. How's that?

i read this in the voice of my abrasive six year old son. it fit the tone perfectly.