Five Questions for Jedi Knights

In the historical eras throughout which the brave knights of Europe lived and died, becoming a knight could be very difficult. You generally had to be born into the aristocratic class, or at least adopted by a noble- then you had to be trained from a very young age in warfare. Such training procedures would probably have included things like swinging heavy metal axes repetitiously for long lengths of time, as well as mental training so that the Squire wouldn't panic in situations of war.
Generally, knighting was done in an official ceremony, but a Squire could also be knighted on the battle-field by a lord, if he was very impressed with some feat of bravery they did. It might be standing one's ground when soldiers around fled from the enemy, and being victorious. In my personal opinion, the knights were not "honourable" in the a moral sense as history shows that they often abandoned the code of chivalry to protect "women and the weak", "defend the church" etc. whenever it suited them. However, there *is* a sense of honour when you consider their bravery, such as charging into cavalry on the battle-field and risking life and limb, and also their hard work and dedication, so that through training they were able to wear heavy armour many today couldn't even lift, and become professionals in horsemanship. Basically, the title of "knight" was attatched to 1. feats of bravery on the battle-field and 2. the completion and continuation rigorous training throughout childhood that could be compared to the training of modern day boxing-champions (except, of course, with swords).

The point is, being "knighted" in those days was almost like receiving a victoria's cross medal of honour today. To be called a "knight" was like being called a member of Black Ops in America or an S.A.S. soldier in Australia and so on.

Now keeping all this in mind, my question for Jedi is: do you consider yourself a knight? If so, do you also consider yourself an expert S.A.S. soldier, or a member of Black Ops, or some other kind of expert in warfare who has truly earned the title?

My second question for Jedi is: if you consider yourself a knight, what act of valour on the battle-field caused you to be knighted? Or what intense, extreme, rigorous, professional military training did you have to work through before earning that title?

My third question for Jedi is: if you answered "yes" to the first question (you're a knight) and "no" to the second (you have no experience on the battle-field and have never fought for your king, country or church), do you consider your claiming the title of "knight" as disrespectful to those true knights of old Britain and why/why not? After all, to claim to be an "S.A.S." or something else would be seen by many as disrespectul to the respective national army, and saying something like that at their official ceremonies can land you in jail with some pretty hefty fines.

My fourth question for Jedi is: is your title of knight, in your own personal opinion, equal to the traditional title of knight? Or is it superior to the traditional knighthood of Britain, or is it inferior, or would you rather not consider it?

"Knight" is an ancient and honourable title. Have you taken due care and consideration to its history and tradition before applying it to yourself? The same can also be said of "warrior", "samurai" etc. Remember, to take it on is a claim to its history and tradition; therefore, it is logical that to claim the title of "knight" is *not* a sign of humility, but actually it is the opposite- a claim to the greatness true historical knights (or warriors, samurai, monks depending on what you call yourself) exemplified.

In conclusion, the purpose of these questions aren't to intimidate or offend, but I *am* interested in how you see yourselves, especially those claiming the title of "knight" or above. What gives you the right and what makes you modern-day samurai warriors, monks and knights? (I'm going by what I read on the introduction page I can't speak for individual members)

Thanks for taking the time to read (I know this is a long OP) and I'll be interested in your answers. Thanks.

Well, I'm not a knight yet, but I feel like posting in this topic

1-As I said, I'm not a knight, and knight here, is different from a soldier, it's kind of a soldier who is fighting against bad feelings and other things inside himself, not with fire and sword !

2-To be a Jedi knight, first you have to do the initial program (AKA: IP, Studies) and then be apprentice of a knight for at least 6 month.

I guess that's all I have to do with this topic

MTFBWY!

I am a Knight of TOTJO because I have completed the training and work required to hold that rank.

I do not consider myself a true Knight of Jediism at this time...it might take me 50 years to get anywhere close to that...there is always more to learn and more experience to be had.

Therefore I am not qualified to answer questions 2 to 5.

Knight is a title which is bestowed upon those here that have completed set criteria and then their admission to knight hood is voted on by the reigning council and then they have to swear a vow of knight hood.

There is a religious aspect to our training. Several of our knights are either from the clerical mindset, were/are military or both.

I am well versed in the traditions and histories of several social sects and societies. Before I came here I lived Bushido and was a decorated soldier in the U.S. Army. I do consider myself to have had an “intense” religious experience which stemmed from my training here at TOTJO.

I am not so arrogant to believe I have “earned” the title of knight, but it was bestowed upon me. And for that, I am very grateful that others feel I have done whatever it is that elevates me to that status in their eyes. It is only my hope to not let them down and represent that time honored title with the conviction and valor of those that have come before me.

Thank you for your questions… they are good ones and should be answered.

1. No I do not, I do not use my titles, did not ask for my titles, and do not insist my totjo titles get used here, or anywhere else...

I was awarded my titles for my service to the order...

That still does not make me a Knight to myself, and really, this is the opinion that matters to me...

Whether or not others see me that way or not, is there opinion, I try to dissuade them...

2. The battle that I have fought, am fighting, and will prolly always fight, is that of the self...

It is easy to fight an exterior enemy...

The hardest enemy is the one within... For you can never totally defeat him... He is with you constantly, testing your resolve...

And until I no longer slip up, I will not consider myself a Knight...

3. Fighting has evolved.... It is a, slippery term...

In the beginning, we fought for survival, against the elements...

Then, we fought for possesions (women, land, wealth)

Then, we fought for "right"...

All of these have intermingled... We still fight for mates, through flirting, courting and whatever...

For wealth, through schooling and better job placement...

For land and possessions, which intertwines with the wealth, but, we bid, and offer, and buy...

And the fight for, or rather, against, the "self" also always existed... The first caveman had to fight his "self" to trust the first friend, that he wouldnt steal his mate, or food, or cloth...

There are many types of fighting, as I said...

4. It is as equal to that of the traditional knight, as an apple is to an orange...

Both have the same, idea, but, yes there are many differences as well...

I said one time that I consider us similar to the old style monks, I said the Shaolin...

It was pointed out to me that I would never be a shaolin monk...

Of course I will never be one...

However, I am closer to one than say I am a politician, and closer yet to one, than a fish...

Although politicians walk upright most of the time, and fish do breath oxygen, and have two eyes, so comparrison sometimes need more context...

Eventually, you are right, we cannot be knights of olde, not Shaolin Monks... But I can aspire to be, and that makes me closer than one who does not aspire to be...

Even if it is only a millimeter closer...

5. I believe I have, but of course, I dont apply it to myself, I apply it toward others...

I see their greatness in them, even if they dont...

++++++++++++++++++
I have thought about its significance...

But, as with all evolutions, sometimes we must revist our beliefs to see if the original idea, or thoughts still follow our intended path....

If not, then we should definitely cease its use, personally... It is not my place to ask another to stop its use, for they know their internal battles, and internal definitions far better than I....

I think you will find few here who lay claim to the title... And those that demand it, usually are not worth the time it takes to type their requested title...

Wescli, I think that someone who's served in the military, is a veteran and has been awarded the appropriate decorations could say that they have earned what the knight title embodies. Obviously it shouldn't be thrown around casually as it does have a tradition behind it, just the same as any military medal, so, because of that tradition, what do you think of the reigning council 'knighting' Jedi when taking questions 2-5 into consideration?

Sajjad Heydari wrote:
1-... I'm not a knight, and knight here, is different from a soldier, it's kind of a soldier who is fighting against bad feelings and other things inside himself, not with fire and sword !

2-To be a Jedi knight, first you have to do the initial program (AKA: IP, Studies) and then be apprentice of a knight for at least 6 month.

Do you mean that you're using the term 'knight' here in a different sense to what it was originally understood as? The true term didn't only have ideals of chivalry and so on, but also represented acts of bravery on the live battlefield and skill in combat, particularly in the service of lords. Fighting 'bad emotions', giving encouragement/teachings to help better others is all well and good, in some cases you could even call it noble, but it's not really knighthood, is it? And again, taking up some studies and being an apprentice for six months might well lead to people feeling good about themselves or even bettering their lives, and I'd never discourage that. But, to be fair, it's not knighthood, or really what the title embodies.
Now I realise you don't hold the Jedi Knight rank as of yet, but if you took some time to consider the qualities required to be 'knighted' by a Jedi as compared to traditional 'knighting', what would be your answer to questions 3-5?

not entirely sure that someone hasnt already pointed it out, but military valor is not a prerequisite to being knighted, even in the modern british order. many are knighted due to their contributions to society or the arts. im thinking specifically of sir brian may, PhD of the band queen; sir anthony hopkins and sir ian mckellan, both noted thespians (among many others). to my knowledged, none had valorous military backgrounds.

wasnt mick jagger recently knighted as well? i found that one amusing.

The title 'Knight' as used in Jediism is not the same as a 'Knight' on the battlefield. Same word different meaning...is that a homonym?

For example, the word 'plane' has two possible meanings - an airplane or a flat surface.

Knights of Jediism and of TOTJO are influenced by the values and conduct of traditional Knights of old who fought on the battlefield with honour and valour. But I do not believe that someone has to have achieved anything in a military sense in order to be a Knight of Jediism. It's a different thing altogether.

We are not the “knights” as referred to by the “traditional” sense of the word. By that same token… where are the current knights who would fall under that description?

Our council bestows the title Jedi Knight on those that fit what that title entails. We are not just “knights” but modern knights of Jediism.

Does that help clarify it any? Of course then one might ask… “What is the difference?” Or something along those lines, but that could be another thread!

There was a discussion here recently about confession. Our ordained Clergy, of which I am one, can take confession under an oath

"Does that mean you can absolve my sins?" - no. I said 'confession', not 'Christian confession...'

So when you say we are 'Knights', well no... we are 'Jedi Knights'

So a Medieval Knight did that stuff to earn that, great! But that's a Medieval Knight, not a Jedi Knight...

You also said that it was a great honour that they were given such titles... well you also said (and it's true) that many so called 'Knights' were corrupt and abusive...

Is that really something we want to be associated with? No, I don't think so... but then you have to ask yourself this:

"Perhaps it was just taken from the fiction and fitted and no one really gave it much thought..."

I, and other Jedi, are equal only to ourselves. I don't think we go around thinking "HA! I'm WAY better than 'those' Knights!"... I think we all just get along and do stuff

Here at TotJO we do not try to speak for other people and other organisations and especially not for history! We simply speak for ourselves

Here is some information regarding what being 'Knighted' means in this Temple: http://www.templeofthejediorder.org/home/policies/11-general-decrees-general-laws/1961-rank-and-status-laws

As I said at the beginning about confession... you are talking about Knights as opposed to Knights... two completely different things in two completely different settings where neither try to to compare or out do the other

SoulSeeker wrote: so that through training they were able to wear heavy armour many today couldn't even lift

Just as a bit of trivia this is actually a myth

The weight of an infantryman's backpack + weapon + equipment is actually greater than the armour worn by any Knight. Knight's would get tired much more quickly however, because a lot of the weight was spread around their legs (as opposed to shoulders) and so their legs got tired and they slowed


(that's why those French dogs lost at the battle of Agincourt )

V-Tog wrote: is that a homonym?

And yes it is