Light or Shadow?

Alethea Thompson wrote:
If I happen to catch a new member on the board, and they have yet to make a post, I make it a point to send them a PM welcoming them to the FA. I don't think you guys have an easy way to determine whether or not you have a new member (I've not found it at least), so I do have an advantage in that respect.

Actually we do. It's the User List link at the bottom of the Forum. You just sort it by Join Date and you can see if they've made any posts.

And I really like that idea! I'm going to start doing that...

MTFBWY,
LTK

Learn_To_Know wrote:

Alethea Thompson wrote:
If I happen to catch a new member on the board, and they have yet to make a post, I make it a point to send them a PM welcoming them to the FA. I don't think you guys have an easy way to determine whether or not you have a new member (I've not found it at least), so I do have an advantage in that respect.

Actually we do. It's the User List link at the bottom of the Forum. You just sort it by Join Date and you can see if they've made any posts.

And I really like that idea! I'm going to start doing that...

MTFBWY,
LTK

Thank you for the idea... It's little things that help...

Trust me too, the things you, Alethea, and Khaos, and CHarles, and Andy, as well as our own members have said, get filed away...

We do appreciate it all...

Khaos... We also have another thread (that I need to go find), that we discussed how when a person approaches us, why we find ourselves defensive...

You are right, nothing you said should have bothered anyone, but, some are not as far along, and do become easily offended...

So, I just ask for us all to use our best, uh, manners(?)...:blush:

I've been reading this thread over the few days.

From what I've read it looks like one big "dig" at TOTJO, the way it trains its member's/the way we welcome our members.

Here's my personal POV about TOTJO from start to finish.

When I first joined TOTJO again, I wasn't welcomed by a Guest very warmly.

However many of the members greeted me with open arms, they posted on my intro thread with "welcome" and linking me to the FAQ & IP, suggesting if I get stuck/need help to PM an Admin or anyone at all really...

Now to me this was quite welcoming.

However

If I had not of posted an intro thread, no one would of welcomed me, no one would of said "HIYAAAAAA" or anything like that, why's that? Because quite frankly, it's really hard to keep up with the new people here at TOTJO, we get so many that come on, wanting to have the name of a Jedi, but not take the path, they merely want to wear the name and not do any work.

So they come on here, have a crack at the IP and they eventually get bored and leave.

Now when I was doing the IP the first time around, I struggled quite a bit, I asked for the help that was stressed to me that I shouldn't be afraid to ask for...

Master Jestor himself was often replying to me within 15-30 minutes whenever I'd shoot a PM his way...

Master War Beauty herself helped me a great deal during the first time by offering me advice on how I could extend my answers and give them a more hearty content.

The Second Time

The Second time I did the IP, I didn't need the help, I was a lot more clear, however I wasn't afraid to ask for it.

You see, you can say we don't offer support, but at the end of the day, we're not mind readers, we can't go around to every member and ask them "Are you ok? Do you need help?" because that would be tedious and require a lot of time...

It's just like I can't go around every body in my town and check if they're ok, if they're not having difficulties in life?

You could argue that there's not the same number of new people on TOTJO as there's in my town, but it's just an example...so no pedantic semantic people please...that doesn't help...

So on my final note.

You can only help people who are willing to help themselves.

Which is what I think Jestor was trying to state when he said about helping those who ask for it.

Khaos wrote:

I have said this a few times on this page before, and here it is again. It should not be about 'this is jedi, that is jedi, this is not'. In particular when in regards to Judging others' level of Jedi. That just smacks of 'i'm better than you, you are wrong, and my version is right'.

This religion is still very much quite new. There will be a lot of growing, evolution. And if all of us just spend that time arguing over who is more correct, its gonna be a long trip

Well, not everyone can or gets to be right. Just not how life works.

But is not everyone's belief right in their own mind? Look at Westboro Baptist CHurch for example. They believe themselves to be Christians and that they are right. Do I believe they are right for their views on homosexuality. No, I do not. If I met them, would I tell them that I believe they are wrong? Yes. Would I change their belief? Unlikely. I would still be right in my mind, they would still be right in their mind and we would still both believe ourselves to be Christians. Who is to say who is right. Perhaps God could, if you believe in that sort of thing, but then again he is believed to be all knowing. No mortal on this earth has known, does know or likely will ever know what is 'Right", "Just" or "True". People believe these terms to mean what their conscience, beliefs, and current knowledge tells them they mean. I feel that we may only walk the path that we have been set upon and I believe my path is that of one without judgement.

Khaos wrote: What it means in taking responsibility for what you are forging requires a measure of quality control.

Which, of course will make it a long trip. Lol, and a hard one, which most Jedi espouse is part of being a Jedi. The easy way would be to avoid the whole situation,especially in the semi clever way you just attempted. However, you said there will be a growing evolution. Growth isnt always pleasent or easy. Its called growing pains for a reason.

Also evolution means things get left out sometimes. In a path sometimes that means people.

People argue about it because the path is important to them. The quality of the path is important to them, as well as the people in it. That's a good thing. They want it to be the best it can be.

Less arguing doesn't speak of harmony always, most time its complacency. Or an inability to make hard choices and do the work required for above mentioned evolution.

Being less judgemental, isn't always a good thing. It can be just as detrimental as anything else.

Especially in a new path. Really though, you wouldn't want it in the foods you eat, the houses you build, the cars you drive, etc, etc. You wouldn't accept that excuse (as that's what it has inevitability become) or mode of thought from the builders, mechanics, the fruits and veggies as well as other foods you get at the grocery store...so why would anyone assume it would apply to a path?

Responsibility isn't something you can or should avoid by hiding behind accusations that show a grade school level of reverse psychology.

In my belief, none of these things are attributed to the Jedi Code or Creed. Control, Judgement, Attacks on another's beliefs/words. While these things may fit into whatever you believe (and whatever you choose to call yourself for that matter) to me, these beliefs are wrong and mine are right. I do not judge you for your beliefs, rather I believe that we merely have different beliefs on the subject. Perhaps to you, Desolous' beliefs are that of someone in "grade school". But to him, they are his beliefs and I believe that you must prove his beliefs wrong and your beliefs right, in his mind, before you may attempt to tell him that his beliefs are that of someone in "grade school".

Khaos wrote: If there is no right or wrong way, if there is no quality or focus to this path, if just anyone can stroll in and claim it then how meaningful and viable a path is it?

Further how do you teach or guide someone? I mean, who are you to judge right?

Just keep it vague and ambiguous so noones feelings get hurt,noonday has to change, noonday has to make a hard choice of whether or not thisxoath is truly for them.

That hardly sounds like an evolving path. It sounds like one that is fighting it.

The jedi path cant use the slogan " Have it your way."

Burger King already has it.

Lol, unless you like a path with a fast food mentality. Or indicitive of one.

And you'll get the same quality.

One day, if you really want this path to evolve your gonna have to nut up.

To begin to learn what this Temple believes to be knighthood, one must first join. No matter what their belief they are welcome to join and they could stay at the level of "Temple Member" for the rest of their lives believing that they are a "Jedi". This temple sets restrictions, not on what one believes or how long they are with us believing that way. However for one to attain any form of ranking they must begin to study the program that they have outlined. This program guides you to discovering your own path. For some people during their studies, they may disagree with the practices taught here and leave or simply stay at the rank they are. For others, they will continue to learn and embrace these beliefs but interpret them differently than those around them...there-by following their OWN path to Jedi Knight/Master.

There are many ways to interpret a line that says "Where there is darkness, I shall bring light" and perhaps fewer ways to interpret "It is in pardoning that we are pardoned". But each shall follow his own path and as long as they adhere to these beliefs they may be called a "Jedi". Perhaps to some "to darkness, bring light" means "to ignorance, bring knowledge" or "to wrong, bring right". Both views have validity to them but are very different concepts. They both, however, adhere to the goal of a "Jedi" which is to bring light to darkness (whatever you interpret that to be). They both lead in the same general direction, that of the light side of the "Force".

But suppose someone believes that "to darkness, bring light" means that they should go out with an Ak-47 and start shooting politicians because they are "evil". Sure we could say that it doesn't make them a "Jedi" at TotJO and excommunicate them. It wouldn't change that they still believe themselves to be right while we believe ourselves to be right. But maybe they go out, form their own cult and call themselves "Jedi" and find other people who believe as they do. Now you have a destructive cult that uses the same name as us...when maybe all you really had to do was keep them in TotJO and convince them that their belief in what "to darkness, brings light" was wrong in our eyes to the point that the belief changed in their eyes also.

"Look at Westboro Baptist CHurch for example. They believe themselves to be Christians and that they are right." -Resticon

That's debatable, there is a lot of speculation that Westboro Baptist is just looking for a clever way to push their agenda. Whether that is true or not really isn't my concern, but I thought I'd let you know the alternative theory that is running about. Westboro Baptist is the last organization I would use to support anything beyond understanding of law and freedom of speech- simply based on the controversy.

It looks like we've managed to make it through this. Can you imagine what would have happened if someone had asked how a Sith can be a Jedi?

Alethea Thompson wrote: "Look at Westboro Baptist CHurch for example. They believe themselves to be Christians and that they are right." -Resticon

That's debatable, there is a lot of speculation that Westboro Baptist is just looking for a clever way to push their agenda. Whether that is true or not really isn't my concern, but I thought I'd let you know the alternative theory that is running about. Westboro Baptist is the last organization I would use to support anything beyond understanding of law and freedom of speech- simply based on the controversy.

The simple fact that there is controversy means that there are others that agree with them in some small way...or at least their freedom to think and speak as they believe they should. Personally, I can't disagree with their practices enough but the idea behind the statement as a whole is still valid whether you like them or not and no matter what theories others may have about why they say they are Christian (considering theories are still also simply beliefs and opinions).

Jestor wrote: And, on this light and shadow title that started this...

In my comparison to nature, I was having trouble finding a darkside, or shadow, shoot, even a light side...

So, by using nature, could anyone provide me with examples of nature having a side?

Some of us, (not me) feel there is multiple sides to the force, so, besides man, I was looking for another example...

Darkside, lightside, or shadow by using this Jedi reference, not like "shade, lack of light, absolute sunshine, or some other malarkey... You all know what I mean...

I will send you a PM that shows you the darkside of nature. It is a little more graphic than I would prefer to post in an open forum. For everyone else, the list includes Ants, Lions, Cuckoos, African Bat-Bugs, Bottle-Nose Dolphins and Chimpanzees.

My apologies in advance if this seems rambling or too long. I tried to make it as short as possible.

Andy Spalding wrote: When you hold all interpretations as valid, how can you determine injustice?

How indeed. If it is possible at all, it must be done by finding a determination that does not involve interpretation. The beginning of the consideration requires a separation between the concept of "injustice" vs "crime" (and by extension, "justice" as a punishment for that crime).

Wescli Wardest wrote: Justice and injustice is based upon morality and impossible to be universally prescribed across all societies.

Crime and punishment are legal concepts based on morality. True justice and injustice are based instead on equilibrium of freedom and are determined by actions that lead to its establishment or disruption, respectively. The Force prescribes justice across all societies every day. I realize this assertion requires some explanation. For example, why is freedom so important to justice, and not law or something else?

Because Justice IS a law, a universal law, and one that operates in such a way as to allow complete freedom while being undeviating in its allocation of effects that match the nature of their causes. This is what is intended by the word "karma", which means simply "action," as in, that which connects cause and effect. The universe will always respond in kind to what is done, echoing back like with like, according to the principles of suggestion, reflection, and cyclicity. There is never punishment, appearances to the contrary notwithstanding. There is no angry God.

Universal justice acts like both a fulcrum and a multidirectional pivot in relation to our actions and the responses they generate from the Force. It is not a rail that allows movement along only one dimension, rewarding the "good" and punishing the "guilty"; rather, it is an eternal wellspring of experience that pivots accommodatingly to bring us exactly what we've indicated we want more of, based on the direction of our actions.

If we work to cause suffering and to deepen the illusion of separation, we will experience more isolation and suffering ourselves. If we work toward the uplifting and evolution of mankind, then we will experience increasing empowerment and evolution in our own lives. This is what is meant by item 5 of the Pattern on the Trestleboard: "I recognize the manifestation of the Undeviating Justice in all the circumstances of my life." Justice occurs regardless of what interpretations you make of it. There are many times when a Jedi need do nothing more than wait long enough, in order to see justice done by the Force. This is one reason why patience is said to be a virtue.

But that is just a beginning, an impartial mechanism operating within the Force below the level of human consciousness. We can and should sublimate it. Notice that in the above quotation, "recognize" can be modified to "re-cognize" in order to mean "rethink" or "re-perceive". We have the power to rethink (by choosing differently) how the universe renders justice in our lives. That is a part of the neutral aspect of the power of the Force.

Eventually, the operation of justice must become an intentional choice within each of us. The highest forms of justice are enacted only by our willing cooperation on a conscious level. The more we work to consciously establish freedom in our lives, the more we are enabled to realize that we can never truly be free, nor can life be reasonable or fair, until everyone else is free too. And so we can see that harmonious equilibration of the expression of individual freedoms is the highest form of justice. Back to freedom again... why is it of such importance?

We first must understand what we all really want. And by "really want", I mean, above all other things, ever. In a word: Freedom. The freedom to experience whatever we want to experience. The freedom to "follow our bliss", if you prefer, whatever that may involve at any given time. Some people may say they want other things. Some people may say "love", but love is everywhere. We are surrounded by love and the potential to love every second of every day.

And what about once you find love? What then? Then you will want something else, which you will also need the freedom to be able to do. So what those people really want is the freedom to find and experience that love. Power, like money, is meaningless without a use to which it may be put, and there can be no uses without one or more dimensions of freedom. Thus, the infamous "will to power" is secretly the will to experience freedom. The fact that freedom is the ultimate and ubiquitous desire of all people and that it is the basis of true justice is what makes enforcement of true justice independent of interpretation.

We are all centers of expression within the Force, embodied by the Force. This has tremendous implications! The Force is essentially a timeless and all-powerful form-building mental substance serving as the root of manifestation for a limitless underlying nonmanifest Reality. This means we are all centers of expression for limitless creativity, and that freedom is the root of our being. No wonder our basic desire is freedom while being surrounded by a dualistic world of limitations!

Eventually all desires boil down to the one purified desire for ever-increasing degrees of freedom. This is true no matter how many twisted expressions of desire may arise as the pure white light of the Force shines out through the grimy or tinted glass of certain damaged or underevolved windows of selfhood.

Equilibration of freedom requires us to ensure that no one's freedoms are expressed in such a way that deprives someone else of their freedoms. This is not something that can be legislated. True justice is not blind. It requires conscious commitment and willing cooperation from the civilization in question. Beyond a certain point of spiritual evolution within the Force, this will begin to happen automatically, as everyone will begin to feel their connection with everyone else.

They will not want to infringe on the freedoms of others (i.e. they will not want to commit injustice), because they will see it as infringing on their own freedoms, and rightly so. After all, everything we have ever done has required the help of other people's freedoms in one form or another.

In the mean time, we have to start somewhere. For Jedi to pursue justice under imperfect societal conditions, we must turn inward and work on evolving ourselves first. "And I, if I be lifted up, will draw all others unto me." Be the change you wish to see. If opportunities arise to protect the weak or the innocent (and especially children) from having their freedoms infringed upon, then this also should be done. But done in as harmonious a way as possible. The goal is never to hurt, injure, kill, or punish, but simply to restore an uninfringing equilibrium. We must consciously seek to establish justice in all ways that resonate with and promote harmony. Love those who create injustice, while stopping the injustice itself.

Once we come to value freedom above all, as the truest reflection of the living nature of the Force, we are able to see how we can identify true justice and injustice regardless of the society. We can also see how we as Jedi may apply justice to achieve harmony. Serve the cause of freedom for all, starting within. Understand the mechanism of universal justice, and know that no true injustice ever goes unanswered by the Force. All is balance. No, life is not inherently fair, but it is fair to the exact degree to which we choose to make it so. That is our place in the universe, and part of our function as fully-realized Jedi.

Wescli Wardest wrote: I feel that what is at the heart of our code is for us to be true to ourselves.

I agree completely. The trick is in realizing how expansive the "self" really is... it is not complete as a definition until it includes everyone and everything "else" as part of it. Then, things like protecting the weak, healing the sick, and ensuring justice become simple matters of being Selfish.

Wescli Wardest wrote: And if we are in accordance with what is meant to be then all will be as it is supposed to be.

This depends on what you mean by "meant to be" and "supposed to be", but I do agree that seeking simply to know yourself will result in everything working out for the best in the long run, if not also in the short term. There is only knowledge.

Fraternally in the Force,
-David

That was well put and well thought out FraterDavid… but I do have to disagree with your interpretation of justice and injustice. As to my understanding, what I feel you were describing, I would call balance and (what others might perceive as) imbalance. But I feel that what others see as imbalance is just a lack of understanding. To many, “knowledge” is the end result of a lifetime of study and the seeking of higher truth. But what I feel is my end game, is understanding. Knowledge on its own is just as worthless as ignorance. Without the understanding that comes from being centered and able to look at a larger picture the details are, I find to be, quite mute.

That was not meant to be argumentative, but explanatory to my understanding of injustice, or imbalance. Or, what some perceive to be injustice is what I see to be a rebalancing of the whole.