Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

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17 Mar 2020 17:33 #350544 by ZealotX

Fyxe wrote: well this went nowhere fast didnt it zealot. Why do you think this is? where was the breakdown here, and by that I mean the breakdown in the issue discussion. please dont resort to personal attack in your reply or it will be an end of all discussion.


dude, you should know by now that I'm not prone to personal attacks. I don't like it. To me personal attacks mean that person is "losing" the debate, if it is a debate. This is why I like speaking in generalizations because normally, I'm not directing what I say to a specific person. I have to say "you" or say your name.

Look... I know there are black people out there that you may have already encountered who blame whites for everything, who misrepresent history to some degree, who aren't masters of finance, and who would rather buy Jordans than stocks. But you cannot define an entire race based on a minority just like I can't say that all whites were slave owners when I know it was a minority of the population. So it was never, for me, about who deserves blame. It was about explaining how we got from point A to Z, which all parties should understand, prior to engaging in talks about solutions.

Because obviously I have no interest in going to war, theft, etc. in order to gain wealth. And even if I think reparations is a valid idea that doesn't mean there is a consensus on how it should be done. I would suggest either some kind of grant system for land/business ownership, tax rebate from money people already paid into the fed, or perhaps even something like tithing in Judaism where taxes from disenfranchised minority groups, who could prove a history of disenfranchisement in the supreme court, could then have their tax burden, for a period of time, be redirected to social programs for the poor in our own community. If the system were fair this wouldn't matter, but if we are giving our money away to the fed to make the right decisions of how to spend this money that we are paying into the system, we should have a reasonable expectation to have that money spent in ways that can revitalize and reinvest in our community. Bare minimum it would pay for community centers like the Boys and Girls clubs, and help create local jobs and training programs. I would create special certificate programs outside the normal expensive college system, paid for through these tax dollars and grants, that would allow black owned businesses to hire and further train the next generation with work study or apprenticeship programs where they can learn fields they want to get in while still be able to get paid and support their families; especially if the mother isn't receiving child support.

I could keep going as I have a lot of ideas that don't rely upon your money. But if you assume I'm asking for handouts then we can't even talk about other solutions.

But every discussion doesn't even have to be about solutions for the socio-economic condition of black people. It turned into that somehow based on a conversation about me simply suggesting that instead of saying "I don't see color" that people could say "I don't discriminate" instead. But what happens is that there are disagreements below the surface that rarely get to be voiced, because we, as a society, are somewhat timid to talk about this subject. We're either afraid of being called racist or afraid people will misunderstand when in reality there are always things we can both learn from each other but you can't be so busy assuming that your place is that of the teacher that you fail to listen. I'm willing to have those conversations about those things below the surface, but I'm going to explain what I believe isn't currently well understood. And if you've never heard about black wall street before, which a lot of people haven't, or you never heard the story of what happened to the black baseball leagues, that doesn't make you stupid or ignorant, it just means you may not have a complete picture. I want to help anyone who wants to, to have a more complete picture of the effects of racism so that we can build a better system. It doesn't have to be perfect. But I do want it to be better. Better for you and better for me. And better for our children.

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17 Mar 2020 18:00 #350545 by Fyxe
I accept your positions and I acknowledge them as valid. I disagree with many of them though but I think the time to discuss them further is not right now.

At this point Ill agree to disagree and just send you some friendship love instead! Love ya as a friend and as an adversary and I think for now I shall end it right there!

Where ever you go, there you are. Make the best of it.
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17 Mar 2020 19:03 #350546 by ZealotX

Fyxe wrote: I accept your positions and I acknowledge them as valid. I disagree with many of them though but I think the time to discuss them further is not right now.

At this point Ill agree to disagree and just send you some friendship love instead! Love ya as a friend and as an adversary and I think for now I shall end it right there!


I feel the same. We can be aggravated and annoyed at each other sometimes but for whatever crazy reason I value our friendship over whatever thing we may choose to debate. I think we both enjoy the mental challenge and I know you are bright and intelligent. We don't need to agree with everything the other says. We just need to remind each other that we value each other's point of view. And I do.
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28 Mar 2020 23:47 #350722 by KerouacsGhost
Zealotx....They literally don't realize whiteness, privilege or supremacy even exists. It's a step even further back than having to define racism as a system of oppression rather than individual bigots negatively effecting individual lives of people of color based on a stereotypical shallow view of race.

Notice how all the fellow woke Jedi, and especially the clergy, came in to back you up?

If ever you wonder weather reconciliation between the alleged aims of the order and the actual material realities of the political positions its most "vocal" members tend to profess can ever come to fruition, I suggest you let the answer to that question be your guide.
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30 Mar 2020 00:23 #350735 by Adder

KerouacsGhost wrote: Zealotx....They literally don't realize whiteness, privilege or supremacy even exists. It's a step even further back than having to define racism as a system of oppression rather than individual bigots negatively effecting individual lives of people of color based on a stereotypical shallow view of race.

Notice how all the fellow woke Jedi, and especially the clergy, came in to back you up?

If ever you wonder weather reconciliation between the alleged aims of the order and the actual material realities of the political positions its most "vocal" members tend to profess can ever come to fruition, I suggest you let the answer to that question be your guide.


On the contrary, its recognized, understood and targeted in manners which are not hypocritical, because hypocritical action leads to cyclical mechanisms of reaction. For discrimination happens to people, and it need not be any particular type of discrimination or person for it be more or less bad then if it were another type of discrimination or person. So something like systematic discrimination is the worst kind because it denotes widespread and persistent discrimination - but that is not measured by the width or persistence but rather the structures which enable its width and the cultures which enable its persistence. The danger of using terms of race like blackness or whiteness to project concepts like privilege onto those groups is not so much that it is quite literally discriminatory (racist), but its hypocrisy unwinds all the progress that has been made in removing the stain of discriminatory thought and behaviours carried from the past into today. So white privilege is such an inefficient term for its intended meaning to that extent that its inaccurate even though privilege does on occasion get given to whites. On occasion privilege gets given to blacks as well so yes there is a concept of black privilege also. What the difference is, is where it happens, why it happens and how much it happens right? But just because one might be more prevalent at one level of analysis does not mean it extends to all levels of analysis.... because its that category error done on the basis of difference which is the literal definition of discrimination. Accuracy is much more effective then broad labels being thrown around, and arguing for accuracy is not the denying of other more accurate models for other circumstances.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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30 Mar 2020 03:42 #350739 by Adder
Post script to my above...
..that assumes one acknoweldges that other forms of racism and discrimination can be as harmful as racism against blacks, and as such one wouldn't endorse any type of discrimination onto anyone.

Another thing I think on is that I tend to expect victims of discrimination to be even more acutely aware of this, but understand that direct victims of any abuse experience a range of insecurities and even outright fear as a result of their suffering which impacts thoughts and behaviours. For me the way forward is not to coddle fears but understand them, remove mechanisms and habits of discrimination where possible, and protect victims from staying trapped in the same cyclical mindset that oppressors want of their victims to begin with, eg: nothing more a white supremacist wants then a black supremacist - to justify their toxic ideology.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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30 Mar 2020 16:04 #350746 by ZealotX
KerouacsGhost,

Well, I'm glad someone gets it at least. I *FEEL* like a lot of people want to be able to tell victims of discrimination how to feel at the same time as downplaying the symptoms of that very oppression; and mainly because they don't want to feel guilty as being the perpetrators who are the root cause. And the thing is... I'm not saying they are the cause. I'm not blaming them. Racism continues because of participation as well as enabling. People turn a blind eye to it because it doesn't directly concern them or their family. They don't HAVE TO worry about it and so they don't. And because they don't worry about it, it is easier for them to compare others to themselves and think the problem is heavily exaggerated. But it's not. It's just that the people it's happening to can't help but to see it and not just see it but anticipate it. The form that anticipation takes can look to those who don't understand, like "black supremacy" or "reverse racism". The "black pride" that some people react to negatively is a compensation and coping mechanism in response to having the black identity ridiculed and attached to the equivalent of cattle.

So people get defensive but don't understand how black people really feel and what the many years of repeated ridicule, defamation, fear, etc. have done, not simply to us as individuals, but to our image as a collective group. The "medicine" those people who don't understand always prescribe is for us to behave as individualistic "exceptions" as if we are not black, as if we shouldn't even see our own "blackness" because they have deemed our "blackness" problematic. But it's not. We say black is beautiful, not because white isn't, but because white is the unspoken standard of beauty while black was constantly called ugly.

And so it is that we have had to react in ways to help maintain our very sanity; unified by the struggle against such malice and oppression, but also the struggle against apathy and those practicing quietness in the face of more than just comical stereotyping. I'm talking about negative attitudes that assume that because you're black, you must be on welfare... you're angry/violent... you're lazy... etc.; things that impact your ability to get and maintain jobs... unless you are "exceptional". And if you aren't exceptional, people assume you got the job because of "black privilege" or some kind of social safety that MUST HAVE saved you from your otherwise incompetence or lack of qualifications-when in reality, these same people thought to be unqualified often have to be more qualified (hence: "exceptional") just to get the same job or lower, with the same salary or lower.

The assumptions are assigned based on one race preaching an internal doctrine of superiority; especially intellectual, over not all races, but over the black "race". Black people are treated as individuals when a person claims not to see color, but treated as a race by all those who judge individuals by their racial assignment. And then they call the police as if that individual man, woman, boy, or girl, is a dangerous threat to society and then that makes the police a dangerous threat to us.

But the answer is not to pretend that people aren't black or white. This only feeds the ignorance and lulls the sleep and pacifies the contention so that they don't have to confront a problem that still exists. What they're pretending isn't simply that people aren't black, but they're pretending that they have no role or part to play in racism; whether pro or con. By pretending they excuse themselves from having to care or having that internal voice we call conscience, bug them. Because at any opportune moment they can say "it isn't me. I'm not racist. I don't see color." And so they invent a danger where danger doesn't exist. The danger to them is using terms of race. This is false. Terms of race already exist. The vase has already fallen off the counter and hit the floor. You can either glue it back together or you can throw it away. But you can't pretend it never fell in the first place. You can't put the genie back in the bottle after it has already granted the wish of enslaving a group of people because of the color of their skin, after it has already caused those same people to have extra hurdles when competing for jobs. You can't suddenly pretend they're not the same group that was labeled and oppressed. That happened. It happened. And because it happened there are consequences and effects of all those things that happened.

As a consequences and effect there are many white people who are outwardly and vocally racist. Many of them are children because they learned it from their parents and it wasn't rebuffed by their community at large. So they say racist things out loud because they feel comfortable enough to say it; not just because they don't fear those they're saying it to, but because they don't fear their own community reprimanding them. They are too used to hearing silence; the silence of so much pretending... so much "not seeing color". And so there are those who are sleeping through history and thus bystanders, watching it unfold. And at the same time there are those who are "woke". And I appreciate those people very much because they are the antibodies to bad viral ideas and they are the ones who change the world for the better. They're not always seen, not always heard, but I want you to know that they are appreciated.

And for anyone not already woke this was simply a wakeup call; an alarm clock to get up and stand up for liberty and justice for ALL. People who are sleep often get mad when the alarm goes off because they can't wait to hit the snooze button. The choice is yours.

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30 Mar 2020 16:35 #350748 by Alethea Thompson
Guess I'll explain my "Green" comment from above.

Not everything fits into your paradigm. Army Personnel are "trained" to see "Green", and not see the color of a person's skin. We were told not to see color any other color because we're all on the same team, your race doesn't matter on the battlefield, and since you train as you fight, it's best to get rid of your stereotypes. It doesn't mean we cannot see the beauty in celebrating our ethnic backgrounds (many do, cultural celebrations are set up as MWR events- and though my favorite was a small celebration I witnessed for a Black woman who had published her Black Poetry book; she read a couple to the people in attendance).

On the civilian side, however, we can't really count you as "Green". You aren't a part of the "Green" culture. Though we will show the same respect to the other services- except the CG XD! *laughingly sneers* Unicorns. But seriously- not everything is about whether or not someone is racist. The very first person I ever heard say "Who's black? I don't see colors, I just see Green" was a Black Drill Sergeant. The first person I ever heard say "What female? I just see soldiers." was a Black Male First Sergeant.

So when a Veteran says they "don't see color", it has nothing to do with systematic racism. It has nothing to do with whether or not they recognize white people on average have greater privileges. It's about saying "I recognize you are my equal".

Now you civilians that say it? I can't speak for you. I can only hope that when you say it, you actually mean the same thing we veterans do. But hope and truth are not necessarily the same thing.
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