Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

ZealotX wrote: correction: the only difference race gives rise to, where you are concerned, or in your mind, is appearance. Race causes people to treat each other differently; hence why you said that we should "start" treating each other as people. Therefore, you already know this isn't presently the case.

Again, you make an assumption. Some people may treat others different because of race. Like defending everything they do because of their skin color or suggesting that they have been wronged in some way because of their skin color. And some people don’t care what they look like and treat everyone the same. It seems very hard for the first group to realize the second group not only exists but is the majority. But race does not cause all people to treat each other differently. I suggested that we start treating each other as people because there are those that treat people of color as objects but more so because most people treat other people like crap because they are selfish and only care about themselves no matter what color someone is.

Is it hard for you to think about people and situations without equating it to race or color?

ZealotX wrote: Yes... some people do deserve blame for how they voted.

Some people deserve blame for expressing their right and duty as citizens??? Do you hear how awful that sounds? What do you mean… vote how I want or you’re wrong? Please oh wise one, tell everyone what their opinion should be. Down with free will or thought!

I was discussing solutions because I think there is at least one solution to every problem. Often many, many solutions. You assigned motive to what I wrote and extrapolated what you wanted to read.

And, I think you missed the entire last paragraph of my last post. So I will post it again.

What I posted wrote: You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

And then you might look back at some of what you wrote in your response to me and wonder how silly it looks.

Again, you make an assumption. Some people may treat others different because of race. Like defending everything they do because of their skin color or suggesting that they have been wronged in some way because of their skin color.

Not at all. Try reading what I said again. I added "where you are concerned" because I included you personally in your own statement. Why? Because you can only speak that for yourself. You can't speak it for Dylan Roof. So I was correcting what appeared to be an assumption on your part. Your next assumption is that I or any other black person "defends EVERYTHING" black people do because we share the same skin color. That is demonstrably false. What we defend is the "brand" because every time an individual does something bad the news identifies their race. Did you not notice that? Individual actions that are good tend to be taken individually by society but actions that are bad tend to be applied to their race. So we don't defend everyone's actions. We defend the fact that black people are not a monolith like the Borg, and instead we are a collective of INDIVIDUALS.

And when negative behavior is applied to our race (RACISM) that in turn makes it harder for us to get jobs, run for office, avoid dangerous situations with law enforcement, even be treated equally by doctors through unconscious bias. A lot of other people don't have to worry about these things at all. But of course, you have to understand what racism is and how it works in order to understand when and how we are fighting against it.

But thank you for bringing that up because there cannot be an understanding about things like this without conversations like this. I hope you can walk away with a better understanding.

But race does not cause all people to treat each other differently.

This is also a misunderstanding. And I do think this particular misunderstanding is the fault of black people, like I told someone else in conversation. This is because, when black people speak of "the white man" aka "the man" (depreciated), aka "white supremacy", etc. they are NOT speaking about ALL white people. This is a bad miscommunication on our part. When we speak to each other we all know what we mean. But when whites over hear these symbolic words that are representations of an idea, they think it is referring to them and they can get offended. And guess what? You have a right to be. However, never does this mean "all white people". That's how white people tend to understand it and that's why it should not be said in conversation with them. But its not what that means. There might be some black people who use their limited experience and think all white people are racist but honestly those people are ignorant and/or stupid. What we are talking about is the existant but yet unknown faction of white people that seem to have a lot of power and use that power to oppress black people. It's hard to describe or pin them down because they are literally like agent Smith in the Matrix series. ANY white person can BECOME Agent Smith if his virus takes over their programming. So because it is like that, many of us (not saying its right) adapt by treating everyone like they could be an agent. It is only by having these conversations that it becomes apparent that certain people can be excluded from that pool of possible agents. Otherwise YOU DON'T KNOW. It's kind of like going to work without knowing who has corona virus. It makes you just want to back up and keep your distance from everyone. Again... racism doesn't usually announce itself. It hides in plain sight. There are some people on this site who could be agents. But I can't say one way or another because that wouldn't be fair.

Some people deserve blame for expressing their right and duty as citizens???

please don't misrepresent what I said. In most cases I don't blame voters. I only blame people who are voting for something horrible BECAUSE it is horrible and not in spite of that fact. You can't light a fire on purpose in an office building that kills two people and then act like the fire alone killed those people. No... if you started that fire on purpose, you are responsible. If you hit someone with your car on accident it's obviously different. You can still get charged but it wont be the same as premeditated or if you were drunk. Because the law recognizes INTENT and assigns blame accordingly. As a citizen it is your right to obtain a driver's liscense. But you can be blamed based on how you use it.

note: I see you steadily trying to deflect the conversation to me personally instead of discussing ideas generally held by society. I just want you to know that I noticed.

I was discussing solutions because I think there is at least one solution to every problem. Often many, many solutions. You assigned motive to what I wrote and extrapolated what you wanted to read.

I agree. But people don't actually want to see the problem. "Some people" may actually want to defend everything racists do because they share the same skin color. Defend or ignore. I mean, that's like what you said, right? And true... there are a lot of racists who feel wronged because of their skin color. That's also true. And sometimes they chant "Jews will not replace us". I have already said I think the solution is better communication > better understanding > better race relations > less people who can hate > more integration > better representation > better laws on equality and fairness > more changes in corporate > more changes in small business > culture changes > media changes > stereotype changes > changes in presumption of guilt > more fairness > less protectionism from minorities > more openness > reconciliation > post racial society.

I could be wrong and I accept that. And everyone has a different vision and pathway for how to get to the same finish line. The point isn't about how accurate these steps are. The point is that these steps need to be made before we start ignoring the subject of race. If I think the first step is communication then it means my solution is already in motion and I am a beta tester and starting the solution with myself rather than talking about a solution that other people have to start.

You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

Unfortunately, my solutions are not utopian. As I told you... but you may have missed... the solutions I mostly advocate are economic solutions in the black community based on group economics. It is an adaptation to the current problems. If I was advocating utopian solutions none of that would be necessary because racism would simply go away. In reality, minimizing a problem tends to take as much work as a complete solution because you can approach perfection but never truly get there. But the question is, at what point do you stop? At what point do you tell the parent of a missing child, "sorry but we've saved enough kids already. We're not trying for perfection here." Our job is to make things better for the next generation, whose job it is to make things better for the next generation after. So the question is not simply how to get from A-to-Z, but what steps can we feasibly do right now or even as a first step. What steps can be achieved within our lifetime? Let's try to do those steps. But if you are thinking too much about step X it will impact your ability to even get to B.

This is like a football game to me. There are only two sides. Racists and non-racists. But racists work and act like they are on the same team to some degree. Non-racists don't even see themselves on the same field. Racists are trying to win. I'm trying to win. I'm advocating a winning mentality because I don't want to go up against a winning mentality planning to lose by two points. No. Try to win by 14. Imagine if every war America fought, we just didn't want to lose more than 100 soldiers. After that we say the war isn't worth fighting. Imagine that.

I'm not advocating for a physical battle with racists. That's what they want. I'd advocating for a mental battle with racists; a battle over ideas. And that war is already being fought on social media, in homes, in bars, etc. Advocating racist ideas should be like advocating for bestiality. But it's not. And that's why it still exists. Ignorance is winning and if we want to win we need to stop fighting each other and understand who OUR (collective meaning all non-racists who want things to be better) "opponent" (not enemy) is, where and how they operate. But if/when you hear something racist you can't act like someone just passed gas. You have to act like they're advocating for bestiality. If people don't tolerate or encourage it the spread will slow. Everyone who isn't racist doing what they can to SLOW the spread of the viral ideas of racism is all I can ever ask for. Whether you personally do anything or not I still thank you very much for your time and for this opportunity to discuss/debate with you. Communication is all I'm trying to do. Whether it works or not is irrelevant. So I thank you and I appreciate you.

And no, again, I do NOT blame you; not for anything.

I am against economic or monetary solutions. They have never worked in the past and as far as I can tell will never work. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish?

Economic solutions are how you create a slave state. Dependent on whom ever is doling out the money.

But before anyone can pull themselves out of where ever they are they have to correctly identify the base issue. And take appropriate steps to address it. That sounds like basic logic but there is an entire generation, or so it seems, that believes the best way to resolve anything is to blame and demand their right to free stuff.

And I have heard just about every argument against my line of thought one can imagine over the last forty plus years. But if I can do it, so can everyone else. It takes personal responsibility, personal accountability, and the ability to swallow ones pride and do what is needed, required or desired. You don’t get things just because you exist and neither are you entitled to them.

When it comes to racism and life, there is no winning. It's not like a Football game. There just is. People learn from example. When you place infants together in a play area it does not matter to them color or sex. They just play. The ism’s people develop are learnt. Be an example, help them unlearn. And you will always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Crap may attract more flies but they don’t get stuck in crap.

And no, what you’re doing does not win people to your side. Just like people standing on the streets screaming how others are going to burn in hell because they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior don’t get a lot of converts if any. It is antagonistic. And will actually cause people to turn away.

I’m not trying to be mean or rude. Just pointing out what I have learned over years and years of experience and making the same mistakes. Look back through the thread… has anyone agreed with you or converted to your line of thought?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I am against economic or monetary solutions. They have never worked in the past and as far as I can tell will never work. Give a man a fish or teach him to fish?

How do you fish without bait? Or a fishing pole? Or water with fish in it? We don't even own the land we're fishing on. And sometimes there are signs that say "no fishing". I understand what you're trying to say. I'm simply saying its more complex than that. We're talking about money flowing through a community vs money flowing into just your personal bank account; the use of which is determined solely by you. When you have a community that has wealth you can ask someone else for help. when the whole community needs help who can they go to? Exceptional people will always be exceptions to rules so one cannot say "oh but this person did it" as a generalization that everyone can. Society has never worked that way in reality.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
Economic solutions are how you create a slave state. Dependent on whom ever is doling out the money.

The Jews seem to be doing quite well. They received reparations and territory. Also, I'm sure you've heard of corporate welfare and subsidies. Also, government grants are "Free money". You can also handle reparations through tax exemptions. Lots of people got a big tax break. Do you consider this free money? What about social security? What about disability? What about unemployment insurance? What about scholarships? What about medicare/medicaid? What about the myriad of social safety nets that we all pay, taxes, and insurance to cover?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
But before anyone can pull themselves out of where ever they are they have to correctly identify the base issue. And take appropriate steps to address it. That sounds like basic logic but there is an entire generation, or so it seems, that believes the best way to resolve anything is to blame and demand their right to free stuff.

I haven't really been advocating reparations. I've been explaining it. Those are 2 very different things. That's one. Secondly, I am and have been talking about addressing the base issue as "racism". So who are you talking about? And this idea of "Free" is very much debatable. I just have to figure out if it's worth debating with you. Because the idea of reparations isn't based on "Free". It's based on payment for services rendered and not compensated. And if you owe debts and you die but you pass money on to your children, all your debts are not suddenly forgiven. The estate has to pay that debt. So the idea that because a whole generation was cheated the next generation shouldn't get anything, I simply cannot agree with.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
And I have heard just about every argument against my line of thought one can imagine over the last forty plus years. But if I can do it, so can everyone else. It takes personal responsibility, personal accountability, and the ability to swallow ones pride and do what is needed, required or desired. You don’t get things just because you exist and neither are you entitled to them.

No... they can't. What you are attempting to do is say that we have equality in the US by virtue of your own experience, having zero experience with inequality, injustice, or oppression. And since you weren't oppressed you cannot speak to the experience or use your experience to invalidate someone who has been oppressed or marginalized. You are simply to ignore the experiences of others because it's not yours. The whole point of fighting racism is to get to a place where we can say, "if Wescli Wardest can do it, I can too". That's EXACTLY what we want. We simply don't have that yet. And it is because of that which you may not want to see because it is outside of your own experience and because you feel blamed for it.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
When it comes to racism and life, there is no winning. It's not like a Football game. There just is. People learn from example. When you place infants together in a play area it does not matter to them color or sex. They just play. The ism’s people develop are learnt. Be an example, help them unlearn. And you will always catch more flies with honey than vinegar. Crap may attract more flies but they don’t get stuck in crap.

Man, you are confusing. You just said there is no racism because if you can do it anyone can. You did just say that, did you not? So how can you also argue that there is no winning against racism? We all know that infants can play together regardless of color. But what you are ignoring is the fact that infants of different colors are not put together in every community. They are often brought up in ISOLATION (where the virus thrives). And in that isolation they learn from each other that they are good and the "other" is bad. Brown people are criminals and rapists and we need to build that wall to protect ourselves. Many people have grown up fearing black people. Where do you think those ideas came from? Most often they are taught by their parents and relatives who they hear talking! aka how the virus spreads.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
And no, what you’re doing does not win people to your side. Just like people standing on the streets screaming how others are going to burn in hell because they haven’t accepted Jesus as their savior don’t get a lot of converts if any. It is antagonistic. And will actually cause people to turn away.

What am I doing besides not blaming you for anything, thanking you for the conversation, and trying to correct your assumptions and provide you with more information and better ways to communicate "I don't see color"? I am responding to you. What do you want me to do? Agree with everything you say? I can't do that. But if you tell me how to better communicate with you, then as long as you are willing to communicate better with me then I will take your recommendations for how to communicate with you. Is this not fair?

Wescli Wardest wrote:
I’m not trying to be mean or rude. Just pointing out what I have learned over years and years of experience and making the same mistakes. Look back through the thread… has anyone agreed with you or converted to your line of thought?

Yes. I actually started out agreeing with someone else. And everyone who agrees isn't going to verbally raise their hand and say that. It's mainly the people who disagree that you're going to hear from. But you have to understand... communicating with black people about race or racial issues isn't something that people do all the time. And part of the reason is because it's not comfortable. So I applaud you for stepping out of your comfort zone, but we have to have a real discussion or else we're wasting each other's time. And what I mean by that is simply that we have to be honest and willing to hear and be open minded to changes. Because I respect your opinion but your opinion isn't deity just as mine isn't. And I don't even know if you respect me or my opinion or not. I'm simply giving it in the hopes that you will. I'm sad that you feel this has been antagonistic but the first impression I got from you was mild antagonism; that you were calling me ignorant without knowing me, my experiences, my age, or what I know in general. I don't consider myself inferior to anyone so therefore I'm allowed to react in the manner I feel is appropriate to what I'm responding to. And I feel we both have the same right and its not my job to treat you better than you treat me and vice versa. So look back through the thread yourself and put yourself in my shoes. My shoes are big but I think you could fit.

Teaching a person how to fish also involves the entire process. Not just drop bait in water and wait. Where do you get the pole, bait, line where to go how to do it, and on and on. That is teaching someone how to fish.

In my opinion, the government is TOO big already and taxes way more than is needed to function as it was originally designed by the founding fathers. Check out what the tax increase was that finally caused the founding fathers to do something about it and ended up with the declaration of an independent country. Look at how low the tax rate was until the 1960’s and what caused the sudden tax hike. Look at the welfare of individuals and communities before and after that period in time. Check out the rate at which personal liberties has been infringed upon before and after the Big Government movement.

Studying US history, from the colonies till today, can really be enlightening.

Sometimes I’m not real sure what you’re referring to… so I’ll skip ahead.

BY virtue of my experience… which I’m pretty sure you don’t know of, I know for a fact that we do not have equality in the US. Nor do we have equality of opportunity. And yet even with a system stacked against me I managed to succeed to a reasonable level. And if you think blacks are the only ones that have been discriminated against try being Irish in the early twentieth century or Native American at any point in our history. My Granddaughter is a true mutt; Sioux, Irish, French, Mexican. The French were kicked out of the US, the Mexicans were kicked out of the US and the Native Americans had it stolen from them as they were mass murdered. Most of the Irish came over as indentured servants and even up through the mid twentieth century you could find signs hanging on business doors that read, Help Wanted Irish need not apply. And if you look at the French, English and German they are all mixed with Danes and everything else over there.

So I think that I and my family knows a little what oppression looks like.

And I never said there is no racism. I said we don’t start off that way we learn it. There is no winning because life is not a game. You don’t “win” life. You live it!

It seems to me you are trying to win an argument, like a football game.
I’m also not sure what comfort zone I’m supposed to be stepping out of… I have been doing this at this site alone for over eight years at this point. I am not trying to get people to agree with me. I am just trying to offer different perspectives, ideas, answer questions and hopefully clarify any miscommunication.

It seems that this is a fruitless conversation… You do you Boo

and how do you teach a person where to get the pole, line, and bait from if they cannot afford them?

If you have to have money in your analogy, in order to get money, the analogy only works as far as what one can reasonably afford. I cannot reasonably afford a house so I need a loan. If you look at the history of Tulsa, OK during segregation and what was called "black wall street", you will see that black people there knew how to fish. You'll also see that it started with a wealthy black man that came in and invested in the community. This started a chain reaction that only increased when another wealthy black man came and invested. Money flowed through the local economy and there was progress. There was a LOT of progress. I think you'll find that story very enlightening.

Guess what happened next?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tulsa_race_massacre

The link gives it away.

The assumption that black people don't know how to fish is basically the notion that black people are ignorant. I reject that because I know our history and I know what we accomplished. I also know that an economy needs more money coming in than going out. That's basic. When you have ownership, that means that you retain more of that money coming in.

Example:
Community A - everyone has a job and pays taxes. every business in community A is owned by community A. Every school, every hospital, every bank, every house, every store, everything. When residents in community A earn money it is paid by Community A. When they spend money inside that community it goes back to Community A. Part of that money becomes wealth and part pays the salaries. The money CIRCULATES.

Community B - everyone has a job and pays taxes. every business in community B is owned by community A. Every school is funded by community B but is constructed by companies owned by community A. Hospitals, banks, stores, all owned by community A. Residents in community B work for residents in community A. When they spend money inside community B it goes back to Community A where it becomes both wealth and pays wages and salaries in community A.

Do you see how community B supports community A? Do you see that even if residents from community A went shopping in community B it would still support community A but when residents of community B go shopping it doesn't matter which community they shop in because Community A gets the money? Do you see the difference that ownership makes? It changes the whole calculus of the situation. The more money that leaves community B the less it can afford. The more money flowing into community A the more it can afford. Teach me how to overcome this situation, oh great one. Teach me how to fish. I'm not kidding. If there is something missing that I'm ignorant to that would help to solve this equation I'd like to know.

Because historically, when community A came to this country it found that community C was very useful but community C had a very different perspective on life and living with the environment. Community C was massacred and their land was stolen and they were moved onto reservations. But they're allowed to have casinos so I guess its ok? But now that community A has everything, either by trading or stealing, now it establishes laws that prevent anyone from doing the same thing. So if community B cannot do what community A did in order to establish that initial wealth and ownership, how can they get to that same level of economic equality and equilibrium?

The government is too big? I agree. But how do I get that ownership in community B? What do I need to do? Does government need to be involved? What is the answer? Otherwise, big/small I don't care. It is irrelevant to me because big or small I don't have the ownership I need in community B to have a healthy (flowing) economy. Without that, when they talk about how good the economy is doing in the US, that isn't really helping community B AS MUCH. I have a 401k and I invest in the stock market using Stash. But my job and income level is above average. Still, the money you get out is based on what you can put in regardless of how genius your stock picks are. At the end of the day I MIGHT be able to afford to retire but not much else. So I am concerned for those of less than average income. How can they be expected to both retire and take ownership in their economy?

And the symptoms of not being able to do this... is largely poverty and crime. Which WE get blamed for.

BY virtue of my experience… which I’m pretty sure you don’t know of, I know for a fact that we do not have equality in the US. Nor do we have equality of opportunity. And yet even with a system stacked against me I managed to succeed to a reasonable level.

So did I. But again, I have to be honest. My early education that gave me a head start was subsidized. My father immigrated from Jamaica. He started as a Janitor and worked his way up to a systems analyst and head of his dept. We climb up too but the question is how far below ground are you when you start? Some people start under water. Do I respect where you were able to get? Hell yes. I have no wish to diminish your journey or struggle, not one bit. All I'm saying is that struggling in Community A MIGHT be a little different from struggling in Community B.

if you think blacks are the only ones that have been discriminated against try being Irish

And yes I know about the Irish. Would they be willing to trade with black people? Give us their treatment and we take theirs? Could I look at you and tell that you're Irish? Is there any way you could look at me and squint hard enough that I look Italian? Of course its not my intention to compare the two but you kind of introduced this comparison into the conversation. I'll take indentured servant any day over slave. But hey... that's just me.

So I think that I and my family knows a little what oppression looks like.

yeah? And how long did it last? What's the difference between a sign on the door and a hiring manager that doesn't seriously consider an application if the name sounds too Irish? Is that still happening to the Irish?

And I never said there is no racism. I said we don’t start off that way we learn it. There is no winning because life is not a game. You don’t “win” life. You live it!

I know no one starts off that way. How is it relevant if, instead of letting children develop without the influence of racism, parents and family members infect new generations with their racist ideologies? Can we force them to integrate and then force them not to say anything racist around their children? No? Then what's the point? You can't fix racism by hoping on a new generation. you have to influence both that generation (from the outside) and influence their parents to teach them better. Will you talk to them?

And not every game is one you can win. People do "live" in games. Back in the early 2000s I lived in Final Fantasy XI. And I gained levels in the game just like my daughter is gaining levels at school. You know what winning looks like? When your daughter brings home all A's. That's winning. If your perspective is different that's fine. I'm telling you that's how it is for me. I'm not asking or forcing you to agree.

It seems to me you are trying to win an argument, like a football game.

No, to be honest. I'm already winning because my goal has already been met. My goal is the conversation itself and the opportunity to provide information that you CAN consider. Whether you consider it or not is up to you. As they say, you can lead a horse to water but you can't make em drink.

I’m also not sure what comfort zone I’m supposed to be stepping out of… I have been doing this at this site alone for over eight years at this point.

I was specifically talking about conversations with black people about race or racial issues. If you have been doing that for over 8 years I salute you.

It seems that this is a fruitless conversation…

Not for me. I learned a lot about you. Before I didn't know you at all. That's progress. And I'm hoping to continue to learn how to better communicate with people who are not black (see I didn't call you white) about racial issues. I am not and do not claim to be perfect. I can only do my best. I had no ill will towards you throughout this conversation and I'll leave it with no hard feelings. I'm merely hoping you will answer the questions that still lie on the table.

And if anyone else can help me with the Community A & B examples I shared, please do so. I am extremely open to ideas.

oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C is Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish... As a member of Community A I can show you how but you have to stop complaining that everything is stacked against you in some grand Community A conspiracy!

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu


I don't have the same problem any more but I remember when I had to juggle one bill to pay another and couldn't get credit cards to help when needed and how I had to pay what I owed and more in extra fees. The bank was making money off me just because my account was going negative. It was not fun and it showed me how stressful it is to live for a long time in that situation and how much more expensive can be to be poor.

But almost regardless of income... most people in community B can save for years and never have enough to buy back their community. We see the occasional barber shop and salon. When I saw them I thought it meant community B was making progress. Later I learned that certain businesses were often fronts for cleaning money. Meanwhile, the Chinese from Community D also had a strong foothold in one of the hair industry as well as nail salons and Chinese food.

And the wealth gap isn't a black or white issue alone. There is a huge gap between white people who are wealthy and white people who are poor. And to be fair there are other communities, let's call them E, F, and G, who are willing to provide cheaper labor than Community A or B. And so a lot of people in Community A (not just the rich) don't mind paying them instead of people from both Community A and B. This, in this case, is not racism. It's capitalism. Just thought I should make that point since some people are probably assuming that I think everything that negatively impacts Community B must be racism. That is not true. Poor whites are also affected by some of the additional things that affect poor black people because those things simply affect people.


Regardless if you know how to fish or not, there have to be enough fish in the lake to begin with. There are plenty of people in Community A who live a hard life because of their personal circumstances. Maybe in one case, someone's parents got divorced at an early age and the bills were too much for their single mom to handle by her self. After all, current society with its standard of living, and inflation, seems to me, to be based on a 2 income household. To survive, a lot of people from Community A receive welfare, food stamps, etc as part of the social safety net but when people in Community B receive the same it seems to always be viewed as a handout.

But here's the thing. I don't like welfare in that I think people do abuse it and get dependent on it. However, I still see it as a necessary evil if the base cost of living is more than what they can make to support themselves and their families. People often think those people plan to live off welfare. I'm sure some people exploit it for sure and I think you need to add regulations and restrictions. But at the same time I see the same people trying to work, but they are often single parents. And the price of electricity isn't any different for them than it is for a rich person. It's just that a rich person is using more and can afford to use more because they have a bigger house.

So I think there has to be a balance that includes higher minimum wage... or ... a "living wage" and more regulations on public assistance. There should be extra assistance available to widows and divorcees, especially if they cannot get child support which a lot of women don't. And there should be tax exemptions for more domestic classifications. Corporations can pay more but they lobby to keep our government bought off so that their interests are met over the working public. So while everything ends up going to the top 2% it is nearly impossible for community B to buy back ownership of their community. There have been some attempts but even if you know about an attempt "like Buy Back the Block" a lot of people don't have enough disposable income to really support those efforts. I know because I've been part of them before.

So you have to combine low wages, high bills (thanks to higher interest rates) which also generate extra fees, insurance costs, coping mechanisms (like alcohol and marijuana), with the high costs of commercial real estate and owning a business. And then that business has to get enough support from a community that doesn't have a lot of disposable income so it almost always has to be a product or service people need instead of want. Hence barbershops and salons. But like I said... funding for those often comes from washing "fish".

So how do we get around this issue, and without breaking the law, how do we get enough money to buy back community B? Salaries aren't enough.

Between Chinese, Indian (not Native American), and Mexican labor, almost every kind of job can be replaced by someone who lives in country where the cost of living is MUCH lower.

If you don't like this then this is something we can agree on. From call center jobs to tech jobs to manual labor jobs. We have a guy at my job who was basically imported just to work here, whose presence may very well threaten my job.

So while money from Community A is flowing into these other communities it also means that Community A and B are bringing in less money in salaries. This, of course, affects people at the bottom more than the top. But it is a reality that people in Community A are finding it harder to find a job. And so this causes them to look around for who to blame for why they are living at home with their parents.

But it's not at all easier over in Community B. Not only are they making less money but the money they made before that helped their schools is now decreasing. Their church? Now decreasing. The few businesses they do own? Now decreasing. It is like someone letting air out of a balloon so that it flows out faster than you can blow it in and while that is going on someone else sticks the balloon with three more holes.

And even while people in Community A feel the pinch and want to build a wall if it will help and they vote for the guy who says he's going to fix that problem and so he gives a tax break to the rich... the answer for Community B when it needs help is always that they need to help themselves. "Learn to fish". "Pick yourself up by your bootstraps". Meanwhile Community A, uses their majority power, to vote a guy that promises to help them.

Am I mad? No. That's our system. Majority rules. I'm just trying to learn how community B can get their own healthy economy so that they aren't impacted so much by racism and capitalism finding cheap labor. So I'm not looking for blame. I'm looking for (real) solutions.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu

You cant have a mortgage and still ask for a special privilege handout so you can "BUY" your community. Westli is right, your bias is so thick this conversation is meaningless.... I fully expect you to reply at this point by saying that the floor sleeping white man does not have this many bills, only the black man. these bills are a form of racism designed to keep the black man down and there is a secret white conspiracy that pays the white janitors bills, right?

You are arguing both ways. :huh:

First, like I said before teaching someone how to fish also involves teaching them how to get the required materials.

So, by your own admittance blacks knew how to fish even during a time of segregation. But now they’re too poor to be taught. What happened? Were they forbidden to pass on knowledge? Did the end of segregation ruin their skills? Or is it more likely that large government programs promoted dependence on a system that ultimately enslaved them?

There were no government programs for the Irish and they seemed to come through it all okay. There are lots of government programs to subsidize the Native American way of life on reservations and most of those places I have been to are completely awful.

And then you argue that you reject the thought that blacks are ignorant. And go on about a bunch of hypothetical situations that are over simplified and do not take culture into consideration. People are basically heard animals and prefer to stay with like peoples. Hence why you get all the little communities. Take Asians for example. They, on average, have the highest grades in the country and gross the largest incomes. They can live pretty much anywhere they want. But you get what are often referred to as “little China” popping up all over the place. And as far as I’m concerned that’s great. It shows a vibrant expansion in a community and added revenue streams. And if people want to hang around like people of similar background and culture more power to them. The Chinese were not only oppressed but used almost as canon fodder during the expansion of the country. They were segregated and ostracized and yet they are doing better than just about everyone else. Where was their help in the form of government programs or being given fish instead of being allowed to fish for themselves?

If there is one thing we agree on it is that government is too big.:blink:

Culture is the key. Not color and not getting handouts. Look at the single parent rate in each community and then compare that to the social economic success rate. Family life and school success. Community and satisfaction of life in the community.

Strong family groups, especially under the nuclear family structure, produce the most successful offspring on average. The more successful people in a community the more revenue gets brought back into that community by investment via new stores, buildings and community activities. Community activities increase community support and family involvement. Many issues could and should be handled on the community level, IE support groups, community charities and religious organizations. And less dependency of federal government.

With a lack of dependency on federal government a decrees could be demanded. But as long as we blame everyone else for our issues, argue how victim any group is and don’t take responsibility for ourselves and look for the federal government for all our answers, instead of coming up with them on our own, the government will grow, our freedoms will disappear, and we will piece by piece sell ourselves back into slavery one government benefit at a time.

And that’s pretty much all I have to say on this entire argument that was originally set up to bash the president.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: oh. my. goodness

Community A is white
Community B is black
Community C Indian.

Heres my question, who the heck is paying all these salaries in community B and why cant those goofballs use their salaries to buy their community? Oh thats teaching people to fish and apparently no one in community B knows how to fish...

honestly?

because people have to use their salaries to pay bills:
mortgage/ rent
car / gas
water /electricity / natural gas
phone

these are basics that you kind of need just to have a job. These salaries often tend to be lower than salaries in Community A. So their starting with less money but still have the same basic bills.

Then you have more electives

food isn't elective but you can spend less money if you are cheap and use coupons.
cable / internet / netflix / hulu

You cant have a mortgage and still ask for a special privilege handout so you can "BUY" your community. Westli is right, your bias is so thick this conversation is meaningless.... I fully expect you to reply at this point by saying that the floor sleeping white man does not have this many bills, only the black man. these bills are a form of racism designed to keep the black man down and there is a secret white conspiracy that pays the white janitors bills, right?

I see this is flying over your head.

It doesn't matter if there are janitors in Community A who have the same bills. The Janitors of Community A cannot buy the stores and hospitals and everything else. Can they? No. And they don't need to in Community A because they already live in Community A where these things are already owned by their community. There money isn't going to another Community. When they pay their bills, that money RECIRCULATES into their own community/economy, supporting their community. When Community B pays bills that money goes to Community A because that community owns the electric companies, natural gas companies, phone companies, etc. The wealth accumulates into Community A because that is who EVERYONE is paying.

YOU are stuck on the idea that Community B cannot survive without handouts. But most of the handouts are actually going to the poor people in Community A. They also have a lot of single mothers but no one talks about them or blames their Community because their Community is wealthy. But when people compose these stereotypes they link everyone in the entire Community together and judge the entire community and if it's not doing well (as a community) then it must be their fault and that's when people like you assume that they don't know how to fish.

But even if everyone in Community B is working and everyone in Community A is working, the wealth is accumulating in Community A because that's who everyone is paying and those companies are all making a profit. So even if everyone in Community B is making enough to survive it isn't enough to buy back Community B in terms of commerce, anymore than people of the same income level in Community A can do the same. But again... no one says Community A doesn't know how to fish. And when you think about handouts do you naturally think of Community A or B?

So pay attention and understand. I'm not saying that everyone in Community B is broke. I'm not saying they can't survive. They do survive. They just don't have enough to thrive. And since they, like many in Community A, live pay check to pay check, they don't have a lot to invest and cannot compete against a community that started with wealth obtained by violence, forced free labor, etc.

When you TAKE something from someone (like land) it means you didn't pay for it. It's the five finger discount. aka "free". Do you deny this? Do you deny that Community A started out with "free" stuff? The only difference is it was taken, not given, so it cannot be called a handout (takeout?). And there were plenty of cowboys and bandits and all that. But of course when individuals in Community B take money from someone, the whole of Community B is stereotyped as "thugs", "thieves", "criminals".

And what amazes me is that after Community A collectively took what they needed, they created rules based on individual action. And when these same individual actions are confronted Community A acts like they never did anything like it. And they defend those collective actions as if it is justified because they got away with it; because it worked.

because they "won". Wes says you can't win in life, but you can sure as hell win wars and take things of extreme value from others. That's not "picking yourself up by the bootstraps", That's buying new boot straps after robbing someone else for theirs. People steal cars. That's bad. But people stole acres upon acres of valuable land. And we say... ok. Because without that, what would America be? Would there be an America? And we call it the wealthiest nation on Earth even though we're in debt more than many other countries. But when the nation is divided into communities based on RACE that's when people say Community B doesn't know how to fish. That's when they say Community B is lazy and doesn't want to work. That's when they say Community B steals. And when Community B points to any unfairness people say go back where you came from and other colorful remarks.

And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that? One the other communities I mentioned before did it but only after receiving free stuff after WWII and their money circulates better than anyone else's. Of course they have the benefit of being part of Community A while at the same time they have a separate designation defined by their religion even though the dominant religious identity doesn't. So it's interesting.

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

You didn't answer the question. I assume because you don't know. Either that or you are confused.

And just for the record... What you said was extremely offensive.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
And so my question is, how can Community B get the same economic strength without taking it and without any "free" handouts; with their legal and legitimate pay checks alone. How can they take ownership of everything in their community so that the have their own healthy economy. I mean Community A didn't really do that but it must be possible because Community A keeps telling B that they need to learn how to fish and pick themselves up by their bootstraps. So I'm asking how you do that?

step one - Grab them bootstraps firmly with both hands
step two - PULL

This is called taking responsibility for where your boots are and then changing that through dedication and hard work just like the rest of us did. What I see the problem here is that you were freed from slavery but you never lost the mindset of the slave. Its like a pet dog that was abandoned in the woods. No other animal is going to help it survive. It will learn to survive on its own by changing its mindset that it no longer has an owner to feed it and then through hard work it takes upon itself it will learn to thrive or it will not and it will die. You are now at this crossroad. Stop looking for your owner and instead take responsibility for where you are and learn to feed yourself. No one else has the responsibility for this but YOU.

You didn't answer the question. I assume because you don't know. Either that or you are confused.

And just for the record... What you said was extremely offensive.

Sorry dont mean to be all offensive but just revealer of the truth. you have already answered your own question. you have already stated an example in detail in Tulsa of how to do it. stop looking at community A and start looking at community B. you cant define yourself according to someone else. that does not work. focus on your issue and then work the problem, just like community A did but dont use them as a measure stick. Make your own way and stop looking for the handout.

oh and yes I do deny that community A started with Free stuff. I dont even know what that means but its just really an assertion anyway. Here is another idea... maybe your sister, the doctor, can move to community A and get a good job or start a business there and then help out community B. Good idea right there!! this is an idea to do it that every single other person that is successful has done. there is no reason one cant do this is there? honestly I know these things I say may be harsh but I think they are the bite of the dog of truth!

Unfortunately, my work PC got rebooted over the weekend and lost my original response.

You and Fyxe are both getting confused between personal finance and the economy of a community. If you are addressing INDIVIDUAL black people, then you can talk to ME about THEIR personal finances. Better yet, talk to THEM. Why are you including all black people in a discussion you are making about personal finance? And I'm struggling to give you both the benefit of the doubt right now because some of your responses are coming off, to me, as racist because this is what racists say because they group everyone together and make stereotypical assumptions about the group; assumptions that are fundamentally about personal choice and responsibility. You don't want to be responsible for the choices of "white people". Why would you talk to me as if black people should be responsible for the choices of other black people?

That is racist. That's what I'm hearing right now. I'm desperately trying to hear something different.

You don't see color? Hmmmm.... sounds like you both do. That's because your brain connects a stereotype to a color and that's how you think of black people. And so when there is a discussion your brain summons that stereotype for you to argue against. This whole "teaching them how to fish nonsense" is purely a racial stereotype about black people being on welfare because you think they don't know how to make money. That is ridiculous.

It would have been nice if you actually educated yourself about Black Wall Street so that you could understand the reasons why it was successful. There was never any lack of skills or intelligence. What happened was a couple of wealthy black men came and invested in the community. Between the OWNERSHIP they had and the fact that segregation didn't allow them to freely participate in the economy of their European neighbors, that caused the money to circulate in their community. Family structure? Have you seen the nationwide divorce rate? Do you not know that many divorces are caused by financial hardships? I mean, how do you not get that the economy can have very real and personal affects on people?

What is frustrating to me is that I know you guys are smart enough to understand economics. This is why I came up with the example of Community A, B, C etc. But the question I asked in that scenario is being ignored because it seems to me like all anyone wants to talk about is personal finance. Do you even get why that's different?

How do you not understand why the personal finance of people are different from their community? How do you not understand how Native Americans: doctors, lawyers, engineers had to leave their community to make money because they had to follow the JOBS. And now that some of these communities are getting into solar and things like that, now some of their professionals are able to go back. How do you not understand how the Chinese put their money together to own businesses without having a defined geographical location of where their community lives? How do you not understand how overseas wealth gets invested through Indians coming here, into gas stations and corner stores and Dunkin Donut franchises and Hotels. These are examples of "group economics". But that is NOT the same thing as personal finance.

I asked you guys... and I don't think I was being unclear. How can Community B buy back ownership of the ECONOMY in their local community without doing the same thing that Community A did initially to get that initial ownership and wealth. If you don't know the answer then say you don't know the answer. But don't pretend that its all about personal finance when that's not how Community A did it. Community A did not get to that position by pulling itself up by any bootstraps. It took. And now that it has taken it wants to deny the effect this has on everyone else.

You can fish all you want but economics is what determines how many fish are in the water. And it doesn't mean you don't know how to fish if there's not many fish in the water. So if you don't care and you don't want to understand the economics of the situation and how it can affect personal finances, that's fine. But I'm not going to sit here and pretend with you that black people don't know how to make money and are living off welfare because that's not true in either case. And I'm not going to be put in a position to defend individuals and their personal finances in a conversation about you "not seeing color".

Do you even comprehend that everything you just said is reverse racism and white stereotyping?

ZealotX wrote: Why are you including all black people in a discussion you are making about personal finance?

I am not doing this. You are actually forcing this by falsely depicting local communities as unavoidably segregated into black, white and Indian.

ZealotX wrote: And I'm struggling to give you both the benefit of the doubt right now because some of your responses are coming off, to me, as racist because this is what racists say because they group everyone together…

Look again. Im not the one that depicted community A as white, community B as black and so on… So who exactly is grouping everyone of any one particular race? Yes, its is you.

ZealotX wrote: and make stereotypical assumptions about the group; assumptions that are fundamentally about personal choice and responsibility.

lol hmm like all white people live in rich communities and white people don’t invest in other communities and white people stole everything they have and then justified it and white people only take care of other white people. These are things YOU have said, not I.

ZealotX wrote: That is racist. That's what I'm hearing right now. I'm desperately trying to hear something different.

No its not racist but as soon as you hear the truth you resort to the race card don’t you. I and others tell you exactly how you can fix your issues in an honest and upfront manner and instead of saying those are good ideas you accuse us of attacking you because of your color.

ZealotX wrote: You don't see color? Hmmmm.... sounds like you both do. That's because your brain connects a stereotype to a color and that's how you think of black people.

And what exactly do you see? You are the one segregating us and you are the one whining when people tell you that you actually need to work to get somewhere in life no matter your color. You are the one asking for the easy solution, the short cut, the walk around to greater freedom. And when I say there are no walk arounds you cry RACIST. And you wonder why you get categorized in a specific light.

ZealotX wrote: It would have been nice if you actually educated yourself about Black Wall Street so that you could understand the reasons why it was successful. There was never any lack of skills or intelligence. What happened was a couple of wealthy black men came and invested in the community.

I absolutely love this comment. No one EVER said anything about lack of skills or intelligence. YOU just said that. Victim mentality is all I see here. The poor black man, everyone hates us, we just need to go eat worms. Then after you "self pity" yourself then you actually provide the very solution to your problem and yet seem to want to ignore it. Why is that?


I was going further but this is enough… the only racist here is you.

ZealotX

I figure that it is safe to assume that when you refer to “you and Fyxe” the “you” refers to me.

I am completely aware the differences between finances and economics. Are you? And to further my point about culture playing into finances, how many new stores do you think get opened in high crime areas? Who do you think wants to loan money for an endeavor that runs an incredibly high risk of being robbed, repeatedly? Now, I am talking about the culture of a neighborhood. If you assign color to it that is your issue to deal with. Because this happens in cultural neighborhoods of many different colors.

So let’s go over it again. People congregate. It can be for ethnic reasons but often it is because of cultural reasons. It can be monetary as well. But if one has the choice between two equal neighborhoods and one more closely meets their cultural needs I’m pretty sure we can figure which they’ll choose. If the culture of the group is conducive to community and individual support than the neighborhood tends to be economically stable and ripe for growth. If not, then nope.

Lots of things go into the culture of a neighborhood. Lots. But there are a few common factors that have been identified as indicators to one’s success. These are factors based in home life, community, education and they are universal between colors and cultures of peoples. No matter what their people’s past was.

You can either continue to beat a dead horse or learn something new and move on.

Everyone knows that bad things have happened to people throughout history. No one is denying that. Some more recent than others. Some considered worst then others. People all throughout history have been pretty shitty to one another. One reason I think using the word “humane” to describe the decent treatment of people to be ironic.