Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

Fyxe wrote: From my point of view you have this whole idea exactly backwards. The term I dont see color is in reference to a particular thing. it is in the context of stereotype, not of racial standing. You are conflating those two. I dont go to a party with my friend and introduce him as my black friend, just my friend. and even if I had to describe my friend I would not use the term black. However if I had to depict characteristics of my friend from others in a crowd I would use the term black. I dont see color is a descriptor in lack of bias when it comes to stereotype. However My black friend over there, is a descriptor of my friend to help identify him from others. thats the difference.

By priveledged I mean things like the reparations they keep talking about and things like affirmative action.

1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

2. You don't have to introduce your friend at a party as black. People can see him/her. So it's redundant. Why do people use this example? As if the people meeting your friend take your non-racial introduction to mean that this isn't a "black person".

A MUCH better statement instead of "I don't see color" if you want to be efficient with your words is "I don't discriminate". Saying this requires no extra explanation or debate, while saying "I don't see color" may in fact rub black people the wrong way.

Example:
https://www.syracuse.com/tv/2016/12/tomi_lahren_trevor_noah_daily_show_race_color.html

Lahren said her criticisms of the Black Lives Matter movement doesn't mean she's "anti-black" or racist, adding that she doesn't "see color."

"I don't believe in that at all when people say that," Noah, a biracial comedian from South Africa, said. "There is nothing wrong with seeing color. It is how you treat color that is more important."

Invalid consumer key/secret in configuration

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/nbcblk/opinion-dear-tomi-lahren-please-stop-saying-you-dont-see-n690801

Would you ever try to prove to a woman that you aren’t sexist by saying “I don’t see gender” to her? I would certainly hope not. This is no different.

The idea that you are blind to my existing as a Black man doesn’t say to me that you lack a bias, or that you are somehow woke. It says to me that you ignore my reality and you choose to do it, because (save for legal blindness) there’s no way that you can’t actually see me and my melanin.

If you read this article you're going to get the same general ideas I'm expressing here. Why? Because this is a common reaction to "I don't see color" from people "of color". Why would you take the one characteristic you know makes us different and say you don't see it? And of course you physically see it, so as an expression it often fails to convey your intent. But it's like white people had a meeting one day and decided to start saying this and we're like... "please stop saying this".

As far as "black privilege" lol.... I'll try to temper my response according to my perception of your intent vs knowledge of history.

1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

here are others who received reparations:
https://qz.com/1569005/has-america-paid-reparations/

2. Affirmative Action

First of all, black people do not benefit the most from Affirmative Action. White women do.
https://www.vox.com/2016/5/25/11682950/fisher-supreme-court-white-women-affirmative-action

Currently, I am the only black man working in the office side of my company. Some years ago there was an African from Eritrea working in the art dept but he got sick. The other black people employed by the company all work in the factory. Oh, there was a black sales guy but someone at a trade show called to complain about him (a sales guy) being on his phone at the show and he was terminated. He was asked to go to the show but these weren't the products he was even hired to sell. And he was on the phone doing sales work for the products he actually was hired to sell. So now I'm back to being the only one. So is Affirmative Action working? Dr. Claud Anderson, the first to write an Affirmative Action program, has been saying for years that it isn't working for black people. Why? Because without equal education black people, as a group, cannot be equally competitive in the job market. How could they be? So when you have a group that is less competitive because of the influence of economic conditions created and perpetuated by government, why shouldn't it be the responsibility of government to try to correct or at least offset that disadvantage?

https://soundcloud.com/boyce-watkins/dr-claud-anderson-why-affirmative-action-has-not-worked-for-black-people-1

And people see black entertainers and their wealth, and think... "oh this must mean it's fair". However, only a minority of a minority of a minority can access wealth this way. So it becomes another lottery. And those who win have to pay an industry full of whites who benefit from that person's success. Football players make a lot of money but how much does the industry make from them? Much more.

So Affirmative Action was INTENDED to help make things, not equal, but rather help black people to be a little more competitive in the job market. Black people own and control a half of only 1% of anything of value in the US. That's basically nothing. So clearly this whole notion of "privileged" black people is a LIE that is being told by racists to other whites, hoping to turn them into racists as well in order to further benefit and to protect the benefits of the dominant (white) culture. This is why you have the KKK and the alt right acting like they are victims when they are absolutely dominating. And when you have the majority, which is already powerful and already has the advantage by right of majority rule, spreading misinformation and propaganda against black people (late, lazy, steal, cheat, etc.) how do black people overcome the stereotypes designed to make them even less competitive in the job market because people are scared to hire them?

No, Affirmative Action is barely doing anything. A lot of black people get denied jobs just because their name sounds black. I was hired in a very specialized area and I was given a phone interview and my name is Jonathan. Most of us working in office jobs have adapted a different voice that sounds less black. So if we are privileged somehow, we definitely did NOT get that memo. And Affirmative Action doesn't make anyone promote you or pay you a fair or competitive wage. It just gets you a better chance to get an interview. No one is forced to hire you. I'm very grateful for the job I have, but I earned it, and I'm not getting paid what I should, but I'm content even without that. So no, I don't feel privileged at all. My disadvantages far outweigh any perceived advantages you think I have. That's why when I hear non-blacks talking like this it is both hilarious and offensive to me. But I know you don't mean anything by it. It is honest inquiry and opinion and I respect that.

may the Force be with you

ZealotX wrote: 1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

Are you sure that what you're referring to isn't culturally based?

For example, if baby "A", Walter Winchester, is born into and grows up in high society wouldn't you imagine there would be some confusion and misunderstanding if he were to converse with baby "B" , Billy Bob, which grew up in the poor rural hills of the Appalachians? They are the same race but would have entirely different social, economical and cultural upbringings.

For the most part, except for genetic dispositions, I see race as completely inconsequential when compared to culture as to determining differences.

And of course, choice plays a HUGE role in how one's life turns out.

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Well lets take that to its logical conclusion. Do we also have to mention what the hebrews did to the caananites?
what the romans did to the Israelis?
what the mongles did to the romans?
what the english did to the indians?
what the norse did to the english?

People have conquered other people for all of history and done just as horrible things to them. And If I have to stop using the term "I dont see color" then I would like you to stop using the term African American. Its insulting to me. Many black people did not even come from africa before here. And if you take it back far enough every living human on this planet is African American. Thats where humans began!! Just because you got to keep our original skin color and I did not does not change that.

Its not my use of the term that is offense, its is your misunderstanding of the term and I have no control over that. I am an American, You are an American. maybe we should leave it at that? Find the commonality and emphasis that, not the differences.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

ZealotX wrote: 1. See? There's a difference between what you MEANT and what someone of another race can understand from that statement. Just because YOU THINK that's what it means doesn't mean that YOUR MEANING will translate well. Do you get it now? That's why I've been suggesting people use an alternative.

Are you sure that what you're referring to isn't culturally based?

For example, if baby "A", Walter Winchester, is born into and grows up in high society wouldn't you imagine there would be some confusion and misunderstanding if he were to converse with baby "B" , Billy Bob, which grew up in the poor rural hills of the Appalachians? They are the same race but would have entirely different social, economical and cultural upbringings.

For the most part, except for genetic dispositions, I see race as completely inconsequential when compared to culture as to determining differences.

And of course, choice plays a HUGE role in how one's life turns out.

You are partially correct. And all other factors being equal this would be completely true. The impact of "class" and class warfare is huge. "Black" is also related to a certain socio-economic disposition. But let's say you have baby "A", Micah West, who is born to a famous business savy mother and a pro athlete father and he has money. And he grows up with white friends at his rich white school and its all good. But his parents split and his mom moves back to the farm where she was from and he changes schools and so Micah West converses with black kids who grew up in the area. It's an adjustment but eventually he fits in. But they are apprehensive about him because they want to know if he's "cool" (meaning... does he understand us and our struggle). Maybe he doesn't at first but he wants to because he knows they're all connected as members of the same race. One day Micah West gets pulled over in a new car he got from his birthday from his dad. The officer pulls a gun on him and he's shaken to his core. In an instant his blackness rains down upon him like bathing in perfect reality... Perhaps to some he was different from those other kids. But to some people? Maybe even a lot of people... he was still a n_______er.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBKQP5bSUYw

This sad reality is almost inescapable. I couldn't escape it myself. No matter how successful you might be, or however free you might feel, if you are a member of a race you will still, always and forever, be that race. And all you can really do is be the best personification of that race as possible so that when those who know YOU think of your race, they don't think of the negatives or the past history of hurt and transgressions. Instead they think of YOU, and your character, and what you were able to accomplish. And then eventually, people start seeing something better and treating others better because they know they cannot make that assumption. I hope my presence here, though sometimes challenging, makes someone think "hey... I know a black guy who's pretty cool and he's pretty smart and insightful and I learned something from him." And this is what black people have had to do in order to pave the way for others to come behind them, to enter their fields, and get farther in their fields, until that day when we too... can give birth to a Micah West, only for him to one day be forced back into the realization that he can still be seen as a criminal.

So no matter how successful, all black people are inextricably liked by this chain. No matter what level of society we climb to we can't forget where we came from or betray the ancestors who paved out way by forgetting to help pave the way for others to be more accepted in our society. Because no matter what... what we do doesn't just reflect on us as individuals. It reflects on "our people".

serious point with a little humor:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NGqtZmShIkw

Fyxe wrote: Well lets take that to its logical conclusion. Do we also have to mention what the hebrews did to the caananites?

umm... if it happened.. then I think what the Hebrews did to the Canaanites was absolutely wrong.

Fyxe wrote: what the romans did to the Israelis?
what the mongles did to the romans?
what the english did to the indians?
what the norse did to the english?

also wrong. also wrong. wrong. wrong. Got anymore? I'm pretty sure my feeling about them wont be different. Wrong.

And if I rob you at gunpoint... wrong. If I say "Manifest destiny mutha*#@$)@" it maybe a little humorous irony BUT STILL WRONG!!! Very wrong.

Actions taken as a group don't somehow magically became more excusable than actions by an individual. No one thinks gang violence is okay because the gang has a name. What about the Mafia? What about the Cartels? If the excuse is that "everybody does it" then why do you want a wall to protect yourself from it? Why do you call them bad guys? Rapists, murderers? Didn't the Hebrews count women as spoils of war? People are okay with Moses because they believe God told him to do it but to me Moses committed GENOCIDE. Full stop. So if you think I'm about to excuse any of it...

also wrong.

And just as different groups were compensated for being wronged, just as our court system is designed to compensate victims for wrongs done to them, reparations is compensation, not just for being wronged but for work that our ancestors never got paid for and therefore could never pass down to their children. "Conquering" someone doesn't make it okay. And all black people weren't "conquered" in the first place. Some where traded for. Some were simply kidnapped.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans

Ronald Reagon (you like Reagon, right?)

signed into law the Civil Liberties Act of 1988 which apologized for the internment on behalf of the U.S. government and authorized a payment of $20,000 (equivalent to $43,000 in 2019) to each camp survivor.

This was determined to be incarceration based on racism. And they were compensated. But you don't think black people should be compensated, even though victimized by the same racism, because.... whites were physically(guns) and violently(torture) able to oppress them? Were the conditions of black people not worse than those Asians in the concentration camps?

People have conquered other people for all of history and done just as horrible things to them. And If I have to stop using the term "I dont see color" then I would like you to stop using the term African American. Its insulting to me.

So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW! And funny, didn't you earlier say Frenchman and Irishman? Didn't they also come from Africa? But you're not really offended so why are you pretending you are? So you can create some kind of false equivalence with "I don't see color"? Didn't I say it was a matter of interpretation and I was suggesting alternatives that would help you be better understood by the people you're generally talking about when you say "I don't see color"? Elon Musk was born in South Africa. He lives in America. Is he not, an "African American"? I say he can call himself anything he wishes. But let's be real...

I could say it no better than this reddit user who, speaking of Elon Musk, said:

He’s a “South African-American”. “African-American” is a specific identifier for descendants of African slaves in the US because they can’t identify where from Africa they come from. It doesn’t identify African immigrants of any color because they can say they’re “Nigerian-Americans” or “Ethiopian-Americans” or whatever.

And that's so true. The reason we are called African Americans is because our history was stripped away from us and we do not know which country in Africa (because Africa is a whole continent larger than North America) we came from. So we refer to the continent as the default just as Europeans covers everyone who came from Europe. Are you offended by that too or just black people?

https://blogs.scientificamerican.com/observations/africa-is-way-bigger-than-you-think/

Many black people did not even come from africa before here. And if you take it back far enough every living human on this planet is African American. Thats where humans began!! Just because you got to keep our original skin color and I did not does not change that.

I'll bite. Where else did they come from? And yes, all humans can trace their ancestry back as much as racists seem to think otherwise. But all humans on the planet can't be African American without the "American" part. So that label identifies people who came from an unknown country in Africa and were moved to America. Others who traveled willingly actually know where they came from. I believe the San tribe still possesses the features of everyone on Earth like a tribe of post work Michael Jacksons; not white but you can see the European eyes and other features. Very beautiful. Seeing them helps you realize that we're all beautiful and every color and culture has the same value. Just like the song "Distant Relatives" by Damian Marley and Nas.

Its not my use of the term that is offense, its is your misunderstanding of the term and I have no control over that. I am an American, You are an American. maybe we should leave it at that? Find the commonality and emphasis that, not the differences.

No... what you mean is that your INTENTION is not to offend. That doesn't make what you say not offensive. It's not my job to understand what you say. It is your job to communicate in a clear manner so that people can understand you. And you DO have control over that. You have control over your choice of words. I have no control over your choice of words. All I can do is suggest alternative ways of saying what it is that you MEAN/INTEND. In other words, I'm not forcing you or anyone else to say anything much less say it differently. You have the freedom to say the wrong thing, to be misunderstood to the point of offense. But a lot of people don't know that what they're saying is offensive.

The people who know you aren't necessarily agreeing with your statement. They just know whether or not you are likely intending to mean something different from the literal value of your words. I am only making this suggestion to those who I believe do not harbor these malicious intentions as far as I have noticed this phrase being used. Feel free to consult with other black friends. They'll probably say something like "I wasn't offended because I knew what you meant". Meaning... because they know you, they assume you're meaning "you do not discriminate". But those who don't know you are more likely to take your literal words as confusing and offensive.

If I thought you were trying to be offensive I wouldn't waste my time. If your goal is to be understood why would you want to keep saying "I don't see color" even after being warned that it can be interpreted in an offensive way? If I'm telling you a better alternative is "I don't discriminate" why would you not want to use that instead?

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

This saddens me!
*Big exacerbated sigh*

I don't think you need to repeat everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. I think you need to expose yourself to more of history and the general way mankind has treated each other all throughout history. As if what occurred in the US was unique or didn’t happen pretty much everywhere else in the world or isn’t still happening, and to worst degree, in some places.

As if one group of people were the only ones to ever have a derogatory word used to slander them.

And racism has nothing to do with power constructs, dynamics or any other thing modern apologist have come up with to brow beat people with. It is simply ignorance and intolerance quite often coupled with hate. Same thing it has been all throughout history.

Look… you’re obviously very entrenched in this line of thought and happy to turn a blind eye to everything that doesn’t agree with it. I don’t see that continuing this will have any positive end.

Good luck.

Wescli Wardest wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

Wescli Wardest wrote:
As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

This saddens me.

*sigh*

I don't think I need to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. Do I?

Of all the things people suffered, do you really think being called an exaggerated color is in the top 10? Of course the person who came up with the different colors was racist. And the initial society that took his ideas and ran with it was also racist. White, as a color, gets far more respect and favor, than black and that is why the person who invented race gave that color to his own. He certainly wasn't being racist against himself. He was being racist, as in, "my race(white) is superior".

Black people were called the n-word later on but people don't seem to want to remember that slaves weren't allowed to be educated. If you were caught reading you could be hung for that; murdered for that. So for me... yes, "white" IS "just as racist" but it is racist the other direction. It's racism designed to benefit you to the disadvantage of others. If you dislike it because you don't want to be advantaged over others because of a condition you were born with then that is admirable and I applaud you. But if you don't like it simply because your skin isn't technically white either then I fear you have missed the point somewhere along the way.

Racism is not about who likes who or what or how you feel. It is a construct that is part of a power dynamic. Once the dominant culture got what it wanted by taking advantage of other people and cultures, stealing land and people and culture while fighting the same, it then develops the desire to protect all these gains and not share them with others who may come to this land fleeing persecution or for opportunity just like why many of them came. Hence... why we are talking about the border wall. Is it simply coming from a desire to enforce the law or is it driven by xenophobia or some other urge? One that might be antithetical to Jedi Doctrine?

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is "black" and then there is the thing that "black" represents. Black people didn't get to control what color we were called. So therefore it came a brand and we do our best to be proud of, and to try to control what that brand represents. It represents us. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with the word "black" anymore; because we decided that. It wasn't our choice to give it but it was our choice what to do with it. I honor the sacrifices of all the black people who struggled and died in the fight for freedom, by also proudly choosing this label; knowing that those who oppress also see me as this label regardless of whether I think the color is accurate to my complexion or not.

There is the thing. And then there is the thing represented by the thing.

There is the confederate flag. And then there is the thing represented by the confederate flag. I recognize it can mean different things to different folks in the South. However, do they also recognize what it means to others? It is a symbol. Racism and xenophobia can use symbols like these to infect people's minds with the same idea and rhetoric. On the surface people may just want to protect their jobs. And maybe that's all there is to it for some. Others may fear their political party will lose dominance. Others may fear that the country will look less and less white. Some people fear losing English as the main language that everyone should be speaking. Social implications... economic implications... power.

can you really compare that to keeping out vermin from your back yard?

unless you see other humans... the same way.

This saddens me!
*Big exacerbated sigh*

I don't think you need to repeat everything that happened during slavery and Jim crow segregation. I think you need to expose yourself to more of history and the general way mankind has treated each other all throughout history. As if what occurred in the US was unique or didn’t happen pretty much everywhere else in the world or isn’t still happening, and to worst degree, in some places.

As if one group of people were the only ones to ever have a derogatory word used to slander them.

And racism has nothing to do with power constructs, dynamics or any other thing modern apologist have come up with to brow beat people with. It is simply ignorance and intolerance quite often coupled with hate. Same thing it has been all throughout history.

Look… you’re obviously very entrenched in this line of thought and happy to turn a blind eye to everything that doesn’t agree with it. I don’t see that continuing this will have any positive end.

Good luck.

Please see my comments to Fyxe. As I said, other examples of humans harming each other are not okay and do not make what happened in the US any better.

As you seem okay with the assumption that this will not end well based on an assumption of blindness on my part (interesting), I will only correct a few points.

1. the concept of slavery was not unique, but the application in the US, was.
2. where else in the world is slavery both legal, government supported and enforced, and tied to an entire race as slaves in perpetuity, including future generations?
3. making a comparison between racism and derogation is apples and oranges. If someone insults you that doesn't mean it will be harder for you to survive.
4. whether you choose to see racism in terms of power or not is not something I can help you with. Your cup is obviously already full since you're telling me what is so without any evidence or anything to support your limited view of the issue that other people have invested far more time into. And they disagree. Taking your word over Dr Frances Cress Welsing, for examples, seems ignorant to me.

Look, you're obviously NOT entrenched in this at all and would rather not invest any real time into the discussion or learn anything new which might disagree with your clearly already established beliefs and position. You'd rather assume I'm ignorant (interesting) and need to learn more about history and that I am automatically somehow predisposed, although I don't recall us having a debate before, to be argumentative and possibly what? Angry/emotional? ...to the extent that it wouldn't end well and it would be my fault and not yours. No problem at all. Continue to believe what you wish.

Good luck and may the Force be with you.

P.s.

To any future comments...

Please feel free to not argue slavery with me on this thread as it is irrelevant to the points raised and responded to in regards to "I don't see color".

If you do decide to go this route, which I would advise against but certainly can't stop you, please refrain from making comments that the black person to which you are speaking is ignorant on matters of racism or slavery unless you are ready to vigorously prove all relevant points. If you think you're going to blow said black man's mind by saying that there were blacks who owned slaves in America too, I promise you will not. Furthermore, feel free not to make assumptions about such a debate not ending well at the fault of the other party who you do not know and are therefore making presumptions about.

It is not necessary to say anything about race or racism if doing so is going to involve backhanded insults or insulting implications towards the other party who happens to be of a different race. It's just not a good look in this context. Let's be mutually respectful and treat each other as equals.

If you have a problem with saying "I don't discriminate" instead of the suggestion "I don't see color" then feel free to discuss why that is. No need to argue strawmen or red herrings due to a simple recommendation to help you to become better understood by people of the race most talked about when people say "I don't see color". If you don't care how you are perceived or interpreted or how you rub people the wrong way then just ignore the suggestion. No need to get emotional or defensive. I'm simply saying there's a better way of expressing WHAT YOU MEAN.

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...

Tbh this is not helping , you both have made your points clear and it's kinda getting a little off topic . I know I started the whole " not seeing race in a stereotypical way " in this thread and I think you both made interesting proposals on the different views of this debate . So would you kindly agree to disagree please ?

ZealotX


You’re absolutely right. I am not entrenched in this at all.

I see no point in laying blame to an entire group of people that were not around to create the offense to a group of people that were not around to be offended. I also see no point in focusing only on one group when this has been happening to all peoples all over the world for all of history.

Rather than setting around assigning blame, how about trying to fix the actual problem. First, let’s stop referring to people by color, racist even to “whites”, and start treating them like people. Not like incapable people or children that need special privileges and rules but people just like everyone else.

Let people be accountable for their actions and choices. And expect a higher degree of civility from all/everyone.

Or… we can set around rehashing the past for one group of people, blaming everyone and everything else for their problems and not coming to any kind of actual solution.

I know which path I chose. Which will you choose? :huh:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...

and when, pray tell, did I tell you what you could or couldn't say? Did I not offer a SUGGESTION for an better ALTERNATIVE??

No one dictated anything. Stop being so sensitive. Suggestions can be taken or not taken at will. If you don't care how people receive your communication that's on you, dude.

Wes,

I respect you. I believe you are coming from a good place but that you misunderstand what I'm saying.

There is a level of sensitivity that some people tend to have when racial issues are discussed and they have a tendency to get defensive. Let me say this very clearly so that you understand.

I AM NOT BLAMING YOU.

Now if you say something wrong my reaction will be to correct it. And this is how I end up addressing racism and slavery in general instead of what I was trying to talk about which was ONLY the common phrase "I don't see color" and how it tends to rub black people the wrong way and how it would be better to say "I don't discriminate".

Instead of taking this suggestion because no one wants to unnecessarily offend black people by stating this, some seem to feel the need to defend their right to say whatever they want (as if my suggestion was a command) or somehow shift blame onto black people for the misunderstanding and claim they are ignorant about history.

I had this conversation with a white woman who I was seeing at the time who has a good number of black friends and I was the second one she heard it from. She did not want to be misunderstood so she simply took the advice that was given and it led to a positive discussion about racial issues. So I know this reaction isn't necessary.

I see no point in laying blame to an entire group of people that were not around to create the offense to a group of people that were not around to be offended.

Your words betray your feelings. You feel blamed but no one has or is blaming you for the past. I'm talking about the words you say in the present. One should be MINDFUL of the present and their interactions. If I'm talking about the present and you're talking about the past then how are we talking about the same thing? It's like you're using the past as a strawman to attack what I'm saying about the phrase used currently, "I don't see color". This has nothing to do with the past except for what you mean when YOU say it. Next point.

I also see no point in focusing only on one group when this has been happening to all peoples all over the world for all of history.

When a mother runs into a police station and says "I need help! My daughter is missing!" The correct response is not "well ma'am, a lot of children go missing. I don't see any point in focusing on just your kid." Do you get what I'm saying?

"You have cancer. I'm sorry." The lady looks at the doctor, hopeful. "I understand. What's our plan of attack?" The doctor looks at her, puzzled. "Plan of attack? Lady, do you know how many people have cancer? Like a lot. What kind of narcissist are you?"

Do I have to keep going? I can do this for days. Obviously, the point is that there is NO NEED TO DEFLECT. If something's wrong you don't need to deflect to other similar things. You are not personally liable or responsible. Our government is a little different. It is like a ship that has different captains. It wasn't born yesterday. When a new captain comes on board he is operating the ship and taking responsibility for its direction while under his command. But if that ship started a war before he took over, he either has to continue to fight that war or bring it to a close. He is not personally America. America is the ship. It is responsible for what it does and doesn't do. And as passengers who pay to ride on this ship we are responsible for selecting the crew and we pay for the ship and are responsible for its debts. If that ship owes money to China, we have to pay it. If that ship still owes money to China that we didn't vote for and never came into our hands, as individuals, and we die, our children and their children will have to pay China back.

We can't say "Oh but I wasn't there when my country asked for money and I would have voted no so I shouldn't have to pay anything towards the repayment of that debt!"

Nope. Sorry. You're part of this nation. You're part of a collective body. You don't get to substitute your individuality whenever you choose to invoke it. Can China blame you personally for the debt? No. Clearly you weren't there. Clearly you weren't in Congress. But what Congress did was done on our behalf, to benefit the nation. And like it or not, you benefited and you had a slight advantage over people in other countries whose countries could not borrow so much money to invest in their people and their infrastructure. Are their struggles your fault? No. But you still have to pay the debt.

So you see... it's not about blame. It's about doing the right thing. And we're not discussing solutions in this thread but we have discussed solutions before in other threads that I have been apart of. If you don't want to be called white then I wont call you white. However, that is my problem with the phrase "I don't see color". There's NOTHING WRONG with being white or black. If you think this will somehow cure racism, you're wrong. Sorry. It wont do a thing. You're well meaning. You're a good guy. That's cool. But racists don't give a crap about that because black isn't even their favorite term for black people. What those of us who aren't racists do or don't do, in discussing or ignoring race has ZERO effect on racists. So what good do you imagine it will do when non-racists are not a problem or a contributing factor to racism (except for the contribution of apathy).

If someone's mind is fertile ground for racism they're not going to be deterred by the proposed "social crime" of political incorrect racial identifiers. They pretty much hate "social justice warriors" and loath political correctness in general. The N-word is already politically incorrect. Do you think that stops them? Or does the finger wag of society actually encourage them? Look at Fyxe's response, reacting to the suggestion that "I don't see color" shouldn't be said. He response was basically, then I get to call you whatever I choose even "Negro". So that, right there, should tell you that trying to eliminate the terms white and black will not do anything against racism. You actually need to address it and have conversations with people. You have to teach children not to hate or DISCRIMINATE.

Okay everyone, let's stop saying "corona" so that the virus will go away. What? That's not how viruses work?
Corona virus isn't going to go away by us ignoring it?

Racism is a VIRAL IDEA. That idea went viral hundreds of years ago and still infects people to this day. It's not something that was just in the past. It is past, present, and future. Black people have never stopped feeling it and being offended by it. We simply adapted to it so that we are not overly sensitive to it. However, you're not going to tell us it doesn't exist and that we shouldn't call ourselves black because we're living in a "post racial society". That's not our reality and we share stories of our individual experiences so we know just how present in our society this viral idea actually is. People want to pretend black people are wrong because they don't want to believe the problem still exists. But black people are not wrong because we actually talk to each other about it instead of ignoring it and the statistics bear this out.

and start treating them like people. Not like incapable people or children that need special privileges and rules but people just like everyone else.

Yeah.... let's "start" treating them like people. I love that idea. Let's all "start" doing that. LOL But that's for recognizing that some humans aren't being treated as though they are human. But yeah... how about you fix the problem FIRST. THEN we wont need laws to try to help one group of people to survive against another. While you're at it. Let's get rid of laws about tax evasion. Instead, let's just all agree to pay our fair share of taxes. I'm feeling frisky. You feeling frisky? Let's get rid of all the laws about rape and child abuse and let's just all agree to treat our women and children the way that all women and children should be treated. And hell... we don't need no multi-million dollar border wall. Let's just all agree not to enter the country without required documents.

I'm sure the point has been understood by now. Laws protect people against those who would take the opportunity to break those laws. Since no one can prove they didn't get the job because they were black the law has to go about it a different way. It has to look at education vs unemployment and wages of both races. We can actually compare data. If we can prove that it is equally as easy for an equally qualified black person to get a job, that a white person can get, well then there's no further need for Affirmative Action, which benefits white women primarily because it wasn't aimed at only "black people" but rather "MINORITIES".

note: like many viruses, racism is able to adapt to attempts to control or eradicate it. If it was as simple as a declaration for us to "start" treating people as people then racism would have died many times over a long time ago. Unfortunately, more than that has to be done.

White women are a minority who get paid less than men. This is especially hard on black women. The cart is getting rid of what is helping these groups. The horse is what is causing these groups to need help. So why do we need to discuss the cart "before" the horse? Do you really think a congress full of mostly white men don't want to kill Affirmative Action asap? Do you think these same men haven't signed on to an equal pay for women law for years because they're waiting on everyone to up and decide to do the right thing? Do you think Democrats, after seeing it was no longer needed, would vote to keep it anyway? That's NOT the problem. The problem is WHY IS IT NEEDED IN THE FIRST PLACE? And why are companies using white women to claim they have minorities? If they are using white women as their minorities then how does this help black people? It doesn't. If a hiring manager is racist he can get the financial benefits of Affirmative Action for his company and still hire zero black people. Right?

Right?

Let people be accountable for their actions and choices. And expect a higher degree of civility from all/everyone.

you cannot be held to account without any laws. And there are tons of people who aren't civil and not interested in being civil if that means what YOU think it means they should do or not do. You can't control other people. They're gonna do what they want. It's called freedom. When someone is hurt as a result that is when the justice system steps in and seeks to compensate the "damaged" party. When someone has "damages" that doesn't mean they're feeble or incapable. It just means they're OWED. The justice system tries to recognize when something isn't fair, according to law and legal precedent. Black people aren't looking for privileges. Black people are looking for FAIRNESS and EQUALITY. Reparations is about keeping a promise of compensation for damages. Racism is not about what you call us. Truthfully, we don't really care about that as much as people think. What we care about equal rights, access, and opportunity. Racists are even exploiting the mechanism that was intended to counteract racism!

Again, racism is about power. You're not saying that. I'm saying it. But listen first before you disagree. It's just like classism. The rich do have influence over how easy it is for you to get a job if they have all the jobs because they own the companies. They may not be the hiring manager but they are the ones who control the budget. If the hiring manager is racist he has influence over how easy it is for black people to work at that company. And he doesn't have to be full blown KKK alt right neo nazi. He could just be some random guy who thinks black people are like children who aren't as smart as whites. Or maybe he buys into the stereotype about black people being lazy or criminals. This random guy is NOT going to tell you what he calls black people when he is with his friends because he's not stupid. And because he's not stupid he also knows he can hire white women as "minorities".

Racism 1 | Equality 0

That's real racism. Not calling people black or white. Real racism influences the future. Real racism represents a threat to the survival or ability for that race to thrive by making the environment hostile. Real racism plants drugs on suspects so they can go to jail. Real racism calls the cops in the hopes of punishing black people for having a BBQ at a park. These instances of racism sound petty and inconsequential until you realize that its coming from totally random, otherwise normal looking, white people; just like that hiring manager or people like Fred Trump who denied housing while indicating on applications that they were "colored". And if you aren't entrenched in it then you don't know what's going on and how because you're not in the trenches with those who are oppressed which allows you to IGNORE it all and think they're just pretending.

Or… we can set around rehashing the past for one group of people, blaming everyone and everything else for their problems and not coming to any kind of actual solution.

I know which path I chose. Which will you choose?

I don't know why people assume that I'm new to this...

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/search?query=racism%20solutions&childforums=1&catids=5

What I also have advocated for, in the black community, is group economics and various economic solutions that do not depend on the dominant society acting fairly. The problem is that these solutions are not "integrated" solutions. It's more like, "if you don't want to play fair then I'll take my ball and go home". These solutions adapt to racism. They don't and cannot destroy it. I have a whole website dedicated to the economic solutions that I advocate, blog, FB pages, challenged ideas and ignorance from both blacks and whites on social media, participated in events, organized an event for black owned businesses, etc. I know there are people who complain about racism and don't offer or advocate for any solutions. I'm simply not one of those people so trying to change the subject to me isn't going to work either. I do my part. Right now, the part I elect to do is advising white people not to say "I don't see color" so that they can be better understood by black people; enabling better relationships because black people tend to keep most white people at arms length because they don't know if they're racist or not (this is the truth). So when you say things that make black people are either offended by or can easily misinterpret.... when the default is not to trust you... then yes, what I'm suggesting could help you have better relationships with black people

IF YOU ARE INTERESTED IN HAVING BETTER RELATIONSHIPS

Better relationships = better race relations. Better race relations = less fertile ground for the viral ideas turn regular looking people into racists. Better race relations = more white people who are "conscious" of racial issues and who can therefore become allies to combat racism. Better race relations = my step kids not being told on the bus to go back to the plantation. Better race relations = my step kid not hearing "white people are better" in a pool at the YMCA or being called the n-word by a girl on his soccer team. Better communication = better relationships. Maybe you never hear talk like that. It depends a lot on where you grew up. The viral ideas of racism love ISOLATION. The more that it has to interact with actual living black people the more it has to get to know them and see that they're "not all bad".

As Jedi we believe that little steps can make a difference. So we strive to see the bigger picture but each one of us can be a brush stroke. Each one of us can take a step in the right direction until one day, someone is stepping on the moon. If you're asking yourself "what can I do?" then congratulations; you're half way there.

I think what most people fail to realize, or don’t get, is that I really don’t care to be sensitive to people’s feelings. That does not mean that I just say what I want when I want either. What that means is I try to be generally polite to everyone equally. And rather or not someone else’s feelings get hurt or their offended or whatever issue they have comes up, is solely their issue.

When I told you about how saying white is just as racist as saying black it was to offer the same point of view from a different perspective. And I offered a different cause to a commonly mistaken root to the issue. And I stand by what I said earlier, except for genetic issues of a medical nature, the only difference race gives rise to be appearance. I firmly believe that culture plays more a role in modern people’s difference issue. Now, they culture one is in may be a racist culture where the individual feels propelled to identify others by color. Or group things that have happened by color. Or peoples outcome by color. Or Lord knows what by color.

I have no idea rather you’re a guy, girl, it, attack helicopter or what other gender people identify as no days. I have no idea if you’re skin color is brown, black orange, yellow, polka dotted, stripped or transparent… to me it makes no difference. I don’t even know what your motives are for your stance.

What I do know is that I am having a written conversation with someone that claims to be talking about the present but keeps bringing up the past. What has been done cannot be undone any more than a bell can be unrung. Slavery, Jim Crow, these things were in the past. And the point I feel you missed is that this past is not unique to the US. Which was the point. Not, it happens everywhere so don’t worry about it.

Let me ask, can you change the past? I didn’t think so. So you can’t “fix” it. Or the outcome of it. But what we can do is start treating each other like we all live in this moment. Not like we’re stuck in the past and just dragging it forward. And some are. I pitty them and the miserable life they live.

You may not blame me. But those whose words you parrot do. Middle-aged, well to do, white male from the Southern US. We are responsible, or blamed for all the injustices or evils of the world. Even though I have lived a life of service to others since I was a child and continue to serve when others set online and play armchair quarterback. I don’t do it out of guilt or anything of the sort. I do it because I care. I want to help people.

And about the government. The people who make policy are voted into place. You may not have voted for them but someone did. And so when you say the government is to blame, you are blaming the people that voted them into office.

Also, we are discussing solutions in this thread. Well, at least I have offered up a few. But they have either been shot down or LOL’d at. I’m sure all the people you’re advocating for have no ability to stand up for themselves and need you to do it for them. They could never form a million man march on their own or anything like that. They need someone to brow beat others on an internet forum.

You know, it just dawned on me what are real differences are. You are advocating for a utopian idea. Never any fighting, hate, injustice and so on. Where I am just hoping to minimalize the suffering of those who suffer unjustly. I am a realist. And I believe that it is impossible to create a utopian society. Completely and irrevocably impossible for mankind to do. So I don’t bother with unrealistic ideals. I just strive for things to be better.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
So you want to dictate what I call myself???? WOW!

your absolutely right I will dictate what you call yourself if you want to dicate what I can and cannot use as free speech. works both ways. My job is not to make you understand just like your job is not to tell me what Im allowed to say. I will use whatever language I please up to and including negro, another valid word in the english language, just like retarded and any other word of phase I want. I know what the intent is thats enough for me. People are too easily offended these days by the stupidist of things. I mean REALLY?? I dont see color? Please...

and when, pray tell, did I tell you what you could or couldn't say? Did I not offer a SUGGESTION for an better ALTERNATIVE??

No one dictated anything. Stop being so sensitive. Suggestions can be taken or not taken at will. If you don't care how people receive your communication that's on you, dude.

Yes well obviously - suggestion heard and then rejected.

ZealotX wrote:
1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

Almost everything you have said here is wrong. First the freedmen were given that land at one point, but it was given back by the next president, a southern sympthizer. so there is that. He may have been a dick or he may have been a visionary striving for integration, not sure. beyond that you begin to depict "communities" as segregated populations in which blacks cant participate. That is completely wrong. also education opportunities do not dictate success, that is an excuse that is not accurate. If your sister is a doctor she did that on her own, not because she went to a better preschool. At least give her that credit!! I grew up just as poor and went to public school. But I worked hard and got my degree even though I turned 18 with no money to do anything. But guess what, I went to work and I changed that. your janitor friend started out exactly where I started out. I started out sweeping floors but I spend my free time studying and learning and hustling that made the difference, not a handout from the govt.

Reparations are compensation for what exactly? this generation was never in slavery and neither does this generation own slaves as any sort of legal sort. In fact the US govt spent decades restricting the freedoms of slave owners through new legistation instead of increasing that freedom before the civil war was fought to free them. and once it was over they did a lot to help them. But how long does this have to go on? forever in your eyes it seems. Well the fact remains that it was legal at the time so even though it was not right it was also not a crime. so I see no need to pay people today for self proclaimed crimes done to ancestors. If that was the case I should sue the romans for invading my ancestors lands and enslaving them!! but it does not work that way. If you have a generational beef with what you perceive as past crimes then look up your geneology and find out who owned your ancestors whose offspring are living today and sue them. I see no reason to get the govt involved in this or to try and force me to pay you for a crime that neither one of us had anything to do with.

When I told you about how saying white is just as racist as saying black it was to offer the same point of view from a different perspective. And I offered a different cause to a commonly mistaken root to the issue.

And did I not respond by saying that I wouldn't call you white in that case? Why? Because I really and truly respect you and therefore I don't want to offend you. And if I know that something offends you and it's easy enough to avoid, I'm going to avoid it as a courtesy to you. Is there something wrong with that? If other people, who I previously would have called white, came out and said the same thing, I'd be like "wow, okay. Sorry, I didn't know so many of you felt this way" and I would cease that usage in totality. And I would ask what word should I be using as an alternative. Is European still okay? Is Caucasian okay? Let me know.

And I stand by what I said earlier, except for genetic issues of a medical nature, the only difference race gives rise to be appearance.

correction: the only difference race gives rise to, where you are concerned, or in your mind, is appearance. Race causes people to treat each other differently; hence why you said that we should "start" treating each other as people. Therefore, you already know this isn't presently the case.

I firmly believe that culture plays more a role in modern people’s difference issue.

I absolutely agree. And there is a segment/element of "white culture" that has always been against black people. This element hasn't always been dominant. However, it is often seen in political alignment to a certain party. And yes, this alignment switched around the 1920s. Still to this day, there is an element of "White culture" that thinks it is cool mock black people, wear blackface, and call the police on black people whenever possible. This element is very much hidden behind a metaphorical "border wall" designed to keep black people "in their place". You may not agree because you personally may not think this way or be personally influenced by this element and/or subculture. But it's there. We have it recorded. Groups like the KKK, skin heads, neo nazis, and the alt right, are larger and give each other a sense of protection; that they can bring these ideas out of the closet because there is power in numbers. I can't even tell you how many times I've heard "Race war" in the past few years. White supremicist activites, like the church shooting, are terrorist plans to try and start a race war. No one starts a race war unless they think they have the numbers and that they can win. The last race war was of course the civil war and still to this day we have lots of people who parade the dixie flag and erect monuments of racist southern leaders to let certain people know just how welcome they are. Again, you may not see this stuff because you're a good guy and perhaps your social circle doesn't overlap theirs. But that's why we have the Southern Poverty Law Center. If you cannot believe us, believe the reports.

note: of course there is no legal mechanism for designating domestic extremist groups as terrorists.

What I do know is that I am having a written conversation with someone that claims to be talking about the present but keeps bringing up the past.

Ah man... I would love to be making this up. I would love to live in your version of the United States where there aren't training camps for white extremists; where they're not trying to start a race war and where Chris Barker did say that the KKK has had a surge (even reported by the BBC) in its numbers since the Trump election.

The F.B.I. director, Christopher Wray, told the House Judiciary Committee this month that the agency had more than 1,000 violent extremist investigations in progress, covering all 50 states, but he resisted providing a more detailed breakdown.

He described “racially motivated violent extremism” as a “national threat priority” equal to the threat from the Islamic State.

Whether it is unique to the US or not is irrelevent. And never did I say slavery of black people is going on today and that my cousin is being forced to serve as a butler on the other side of town. What I'm talking about TODAY that is present tense in racism. Is that clear? But I was responding to someone who brought up REPARATIONS as a "black privilege". Do you not see how slavery is relevant in that context? I'm sure you probably didn't read that part. And you probably didn't read the part where I linked the economic effects of slavery and the lack of compensation and the ongoing effects of racism as an influence to the current socio-economic status of black Americans.

After I said that I responded to you saying "White is just as racist as calling someone brown, black, or yellow" with me not wanting to repeat to you everything that happened during slavery and Jim Crow because your statement came off to me as totally dismissive of what racism actually is; as if it is a disagreement over what color of the rainbow should be used to represent people. The experience of ANY group should not be reduced to a color and then only to casually say "oh let's stop saying the names of these colors". I really hope you can put yourself in my shoes to hear how that might sound.

Let me ask, can you change the past? I didn’t think so. So you can’t “fix” it. Or the outcome of it. But what we can do is start treating each other like we all live in this moment. Not like we’re stuck in the past and just dragging it forward. And some are. I pitty them and the miserable life they live.

Again... what I'm mainly talking about is RACISM which is extremely modern. And because not enough people did enough in the PAST, we still have to deal with racists TODAY. So no, you can't change the past. But you can learn a lot from it so that you do not REPEAT it. There is an element among white people (which doesn't include you since I'm not referring to you as white) that wants a repeat of the civil war; or at least, they want a race war. Go talk to them. Go lecture them about the past. Go tell them that it's not cool to hate. Go tell them SOMETHING. Because not telling them anything means that in another 100 years they'll still around and thinking that all white people share their ideas but are afraid to say so. Go tell it to them. Be a light and an ambassador for peace and harmony.

You may not blame me. But those whose words you parrot do. Middle-aged, well to do, white male from the Southern US. We are responsible, or blamed for all the injustices or evils of the world.

What words? Slavery? You feel blamed by the word slavery? If I had more time I'd find the quote where you said... nevermind here it is:

And rather or not someone else’s feelings get hurt or their offended or whatever issue they have comes up, is solely their issue.

I didn't blame you. You saw a word and felt blame. By your own logic your feelings or whatever issue they have is solely your issue. RIGHT?!?!

I mean... I disagree. I would say that "in as much as I can FORESEE someone having such a reaction" then it is on me, but if I cannot foresee it then it's on you. But that's just me and just as you can say you didn't know if I was a guy, girl, or it (which is ironic since I would think that you could at least assume I was a person and not an AI), how would I know that you were from the South? Impossible. On top of that, how would I know you were middle-aged (like me), and well to do? I respect you as far as I have read numerous posts of yours before. And I never stopped to ask you your race, gender, or SSN. So that street goes both ways. And if you react by feeling blame then you can image how a black person might feel to have their color, which represents so much more than melanin or pigment... but the shared experiences, lives lost, struggle for equal rights, 15th ammendment, Dred Scott, Brown vs Board of Education, numerous forms of music, food, and so much more... all of that... ignored by you saying "I don't see color".

See, there is what "black" means to you and what it means to us. It doesn't need to mean the same thing to you, but I would rather you TRY to see at least some of these things when you think of "black" than to seek to erase the word from history. Do you get it?

And about the government. The people who make policy are voted into place. You may not have voted for them but someone did. And so when you say the government is to blame, you are blaming the people that voted them into office.

Yes... some people do deserve blame for how they voted. Absolutely. But again... "in as much as you can FORESEE" the result of that vote. So if someone voted for Trump and didn't know that his administration would lose track of kids parents I can't blame that on even his most die hard voters. If someone voted for Trump, not knowing or believing he was a racist and that his policy ideas linked to Reagan were racially motivated, again, I CANNOT blame even the most Trumpian of Trump's voters. If someone voted for Trump as the lesser of two evils, because they thought Hillary was worse, I disagree BUT... I don't blame them for their vote. Just like I don't blame myself for voting for The Green Party candidate, Jill Stein. Again... you seem to me like a good guy. And I give everyone on this site the benefit of the doubt in general because we have higher standards as Jedi. So no... I don't blame you unless you knew and got the result you were looking for. The same would be true if you were voting for racists in the democratic party before they switched sides and became republicans. If you were voting for them BECAUSE they were racist then I blame you. If you voted for them in spite of them being racist then it is a bit grey. But if you voted not knowing they were racist then I do not blame you at all.

Also, we are discussing solutions in this thread. Well, at least I have offered up a few. But they have either been shot down or LOL’d at. I’m sure all the people you’re advocating for have no ability to stand up for themselves and need you to do it for them. They could never form a million man march on their own or anything like that. They need someone to brow beat others on an internet forum.

No, you were discussing solutions because you wanted to educate me about history as if I didn't know slavery existed in other places. I wasn't brow beating anyone. I was suggesting people stop using the PROBLEMATIC phrase "I don't see color" and replacing it (solution) with "I don't discriminate". It just happens that a couple people elected to argue against my suggestion for whatever reasons. And yes, I'm going to laugh if something is funny. And taking away a law that attempts to protect people by making them more competitive in the job market, even though said law benefits white women more because they use that title of "minority" (which goes for anything designed to benefit "minorities", white women typically benefit more than others), take it away in favor of a social effort all just "start" treating each other like humans. Sorry, but that's funny. It's funny because you seem so much like a realist but in seeking to take away Affirmative Action you cite the most unrealistic, unicorns and rainbows, we are the world, moralistic, politically correct, platitude that perhaps I've heard on race relations and I'm 41. And its not to mock you, not at all. It's to show you that this issue, and this comes from one who has been in the trenches, is far bigger than any simple solution or "can't we all just get along?" proclamation. There are people who literally want to kill people that look like me simply because of the color of their skin. And you think they're going to just agree to stop and treat everyone the same? Do you think they will be deterred by anyone "not seeing color"? I don't think so, but if you want to talk to them and see I'm all for it. You have my support. But you should also consider the fact that these people aren't trying to kill you. They might like to kill me though so it should be understandable if I'm a little more invested. And I don't blame you for that either. In fact, I'm glad you took the time to engage on this issue and I appreciate even the disagreement. It's more than most people do.

If you want to talk about some serious solutions we can do that. I just thought this would not be the right thread.

Fyxe wrote:

ZealotX wrote:
1. reparations

African Americans were promised "40 acres and a mule" after slavery to help them get started in the American economy. When you have a few people who are broke a community the community can pool resources to help those people. Locality based taxation also doesn't inhibit the education opportunities and thus the career opportunities for those children. They all have equal opportunity to prosper. When you contrast this with many African American communities, the people are blamed for being broke as if they are lazy. In reality many people coming to this country benefit from generational wealth. Their communities have more money, therefore better schools, better opportunities. We have proven that better education does have a serious impact. My sister and I were better educated than many people we grew up with and therefore our opportunities were better. Our early education was priced out of range for most African American families; including ours. But it was subsidized by our church (not local, because they couldn't afford it either; but rather regional or national). When we went to public school after that we were more very noticeably ahead of the other kids. And how could they be struggling in school if we weren't and we were black too? It's because their public education was inferior. Because their funding was also inferior. This is just one example of how money affects a community. Thanks, in part, for that subsidy in our formative years, my sister is a doctor and I'm a web developer. My best friend grew up in public schools and went from janitorial work to grounds keeping. One isn't better than the other but one definitely pays better and the taxes go to the schools where you live and where you live determines the housing available. Not many black doctors and lawyers want to live "in the hood".

So even though some of us "make it" there is a domino effect that wealth and the lack thereof has on a community. To deny this is to deny economic reality. It actually costs more to live if you're broke because your interest rates are higher which makes things cost more. If you don't have 20% of a home loan to put down you, for example, also have to pay extra for mortgage insurance. And the value of your home may not even go up like homes in other areas because you often don't get to determine your own property value. This creates situations that are difficult to get out of. And a lot of things are not priced in respect of the poor. So every year college tuition becomes further and further out of reach unless you win a type of lottery and can get a scholarship. That's great, but these are always in limited supply so it always means that the majority will not have the same opportunities as the minority... of the minority. The smaller minority proves what the rest could do with the right investment. But people act like reparations is a hand out. It's not. It's COMPENSATION. Meanwhile, reparations were already given... to slave owners.

Almost everything you have said here is wrong. First the freedmen were given that land at one point, but it was given back by the next president, a southern sympthizer. so there is that. He may have been a dick or he may have been a visionary striving for integration, not sure. beyond that you begin to depict "communities" as segregated populations in which blacks cant participate. That is completely wrong. also education opportunities do not dictate success, that is an excuse that is not accurate. If your sister is a doctor she did that on her own, not because she went to a better preschool. At least give her that credit!! I grew up just as poor and went to public school. But I worked hard and got my degree even though I turned 18 with no money to do anything. But guess what, I went to work and I changed that. your janitor friend started out exactly where I started out. I started out sweeping floors but I spend my free time studying and learning and hustling that made the difference, not a handout from the govt.

Reparations are compensation for what exactly? this generation was never in slavery and neither does this generation own slaves as any sort of legal sort. In fact the US govt spent decades restricting the freedoms of slave owners through new legistation instead of increasing that freedom before the civil war was fought to free them. and once it was over they did a lot to help them. But how long does this have to go on? forever in your eyes it seems. Well the fact remains that it was legal at the time so even though it was not right it was also not a crime. so I see no need to pay people today for self proclaimed crimes done to ancestors. If that was the case I should sue the romans for invading my ancestors lands and enslaving them!! but it does not work that way. If you have a generational beef with what you perceive as past crimes then look up your geneology and find out who owned your ancestors whose offspring are living today and sue them. I see no reason to get the govt involved in this or to try and force me to pay you for a crime that neither one of us had anything to do with.

I lack the energy to deal with this today. I'll deal with it tomorrow.

ZealotX wrote:

On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.

oh... you mean ignorance.

Yes! It would seem you understand my point without realizing it. Not seeing colour is not being guided by the inherent ignorance of not knowing something. Nothing more, nothing less.

ZealotX wrote:

On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black'

No... I'm quite sure I've only said the opposite. "Black" is not a stereotype. That's not how stereotypes work. A stereotype doesn't get to replace an entire race. Only racists think in absolutes like that. Anyone who is more familiar with black people knows there are different kinds of black people. Black people come in all shapes and sizes.

There are some stereotypes that get applied out of humor, some that get applied out of fear, some that get applied out of anger. I don't traffic in the latter two but I know they exist and I'm aware of the ones aimed at my race. Some of these stereotypes are used to create an air of assumption that black people shouldn't be hired. Why? Because the people advancing those stereotypes did not want to compete against black candidates which they suddenly found themselves doing.

But do you get how offensive it is to call people lazy who were previously forced to work by whips and chains and were forced to meet ridiculous quotas picking cotton from plants that had thorns? But suddenly they had to compete against free slaves so these stereotypes were used to try to give the ex-slaves a disadvantage. And these particular stereotypes evolved and got worse, to the point where criminals and their behavior was being used to represent all black people. At the same time, the thuggish type of cultures was popularized the same way that cowboy culture was. All cowboys weren't good. A lot of them were bandits and people who killed native Americans. But nobody fears that the white guy in the cowboy hat is about to take their land.

And honestly, just this weekend I was over my gf's and forgot to lock my car and someone (most likely white) when through it looking for drugs, probably assuming I was a dope boy because I have dreads and drive a Lexus. But I accept that as kind of an "occupational hazard". But that's different from assuming EVERY black man is a thug. That's progress, lol.

Stereotypes should only be funny. All others should be rejected. That's not going to stop people from "fitting" a more specific description. But at least if you're looking for neck/face tats, white t-shirt, saggy pants, etc. at least that's more specific than "black". And that shows progress in how you see black people. But don't take their color away just because you don't know enough about them to confine stereotypes to more specific descriptions. What about the black doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, plumbers, real estate agents, etc? I know a lot of them and I know almost no one who is an actual thug. And because of the fact stereotypes can be used as weapons against black people, it is important that the positive black people should ALSO be representative of their race/color. This helps to BALANCE out the negative and attacks the core premises of racism.

If that doesn't make sense, imagine if you're watching the news and every black criminal is called "black" but every reference to a doctor or lawyer is never called black and never shown on camera. Could a person, who trusts the news, not get the impression that black people are all criminals? And you almost hardly even have to imagine this because it does happen a lot on the news and is a small part of what we sometimes refer to as institutional racism.

But fortunately, less people watch the news and more and more people just reject the assignment of criminality to black people as a stereotype. And that's cool. The less we fear each other the more we can cooperate and build a better future for all. Doing that doesn't mean not seeing people's color. It just means not being afraid of it and therefore not believing negative inquiries simply based on outward appearances.

The book has a cover and that cover probably has a color but there's just no need to judge the book by it.

As mentioned I see them serving as a reference models to enable decision making, being approximate yet representative data in lieu of more accurate real data. People who use those to discriminate often exaggerate them for dramatic effect, but its not what the concept really means besides the contemporary social use. I do not bother with broken langauge and definitely don't let it define my path. Disease exists in many forms and its an integral part of life... discrimination is just another form of it. So stereotypical as a repeated and coherent model that serves as a framework for work is inherent to cognition IMO. So from my point of view your actually agreeing with me but you cant get past that black stereotypes is a reference model for most non-blacks (noting no-one said they were bad stereotypes!) unless they have black friends who they use as a reference model instead (because it would be more accurate then useful stereotypes). People with higher exposure to black people would have a greater amount of reference models and so have a reference space.... but it still works the same. To me your seemingly not accepting that stereotypes exist and serve in our minds as models to enable decision making, probably because I didn't explain my view enough or you disagree with it. But no-one here is suggesting to use stereotypes to define something, indeed the whole not seeing colour is overtly rejecting them. For you keep arguing as if people are rejecting the reality in favor of the stereotype (when its the opposite being said) either for one of those two reasons I presume.

Just because people make bad stereotypes doesn't mean all stereotypes are bad or that the use of a stereotype is for abuse or confusion or anything else counter-productive - they can be, but just because something can be misused doesn't have to define that something.

The reality is we are all coloured/colored IMO, but its better to look past the skin deep. If what lies beyond happens to be all about colour/color then so be it. It's not excluding it, its just not limiting to it.