Accountability of the laws spirit beyond its letter

ZealotX wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Kohadre wrote: Again, I don’t have any argument with the philosophy or reasoning in your above quoted post.

As you’ve mentioned, Kyrin and myself would identify as “gray” Jedi. Fortunately, the philosophy within said code is not significantly different from the one TOTJO operates upon. However, shortly after Kyrin’s last return to temple affairs; she adopted a more Sith based code.

I don't know whether or not that's true because I've never seen Kyrin say or advertise this. So I have to put an asterisk on it until verified. And I will ask Kyrin directly.

Kohadre wrote: Again, not very problematic in itself since we have many temple members who lean more towards a sith based philosophy.

The bigger problem with Kyrin’s return to temple affairs; was her public announcement of a position she referred to as a “Jedaii Ranger”. In doing this, she inferred, implied, or otherwise stated that it was her position to work behind the scenes; holding membership accountable.

After nearly 4 months of being unfairly banned here I was reinstated at the temple. It's been 15 days since that reinstatement and I have used that time to catch up here. What I have found is shocking, first and foremost the creation of psuedo-scientific position that has no basis in reality. But that is a secondary issue. The primary purpose of this post is one the council has asked me to undetake. That of conflict resolution, particularly with zenchi arisaig.

And so I wish to begin that dialogue here, now as a jedaii ranger. A position i have continued to pursue, and eventually achieve, even though I was denied access to my journals here without recourse to regain their access by council. I have since negotiated with them for access to the forums but in light of the methods employed I will never again post a lesson here in journal form. My journals have been recreated at another location and that link is in my signature. So feel free to browse them as you desire.

With all due respect, I see some flaws in your interpretation. I understand your preference for the spoilers tag but I'd rather not miss or have to click on a link to see proof of the accuracy of your assertion.

She made reference of "pursuing" a position in a more official capacity. Until then she is acting unofficially. This is really no different than what I'm doing, by working on a manual for Jedi debating which I will "pursue" official sanction for. I may fail in doing so, but I do think it is important and would have already come in handy. People who agree with my project have supported the idea. Just like, after seeing her own words and motivation, I support her Jedi Ranger initiative where as before I had no idea what it meant in her signature. This is really no different from any citizen of any country or organization having an idea and working towards official acceptance. There's absolutely nothing wrong with that. To me, having ideas is not a crime and is better than having nothing to offer. Also, posting and questioning people in full view of public forums is not exactly what I'd call "behind the scenes"; certainly not as behind the scenes as my own project is.

What is Jediism
Jediism is the religion of those who regard their Jedi practice as a religious vocation. Jedi observe a metaphysical entity called the Force and often practise meditation. Jedi beliefs at this Temple are outlined by our Doctrine and developed through participation in our training programmes.

The Temple is welcoming and you do not need to be religious, or even a Jedi, to accept our Doctrine or participate in our training programmes or on our forum.

official misspellings aside, this quote is an official statement and guideline of this website and forum. There is nothing in our doctrines about reiki, or any other form of energy work. You can have these beliefs outside of being a Jedi (as I will quote below) but membership shouldn't be trying to change Jediism, or TOTJO, in order to include these other things; especially not without a much broader consent of the council and membership. Because that's like denomination saying "we don't believe in the Trinity" and then because of a few people suddenly saying "we now profess belief in the Trinity". And that is a real example btw and the #1 reason why I left that denomination. If you agree with a change then it wont upset you. However, if you came back and TOTJO was like "yeah... the Jedi must end so we're now Temple of the Cobrala" you'd probably not be pleased.

Kohadre wrote: At this same time, she also publicly stated that she had absolutely no commitment to TOTJO doctrine or philosophy; nor did she have any intention of continuing to participate with or contribute to the temple community.

Yes of course I would. A Jedaii Ranger is a defender of freedom and a seeker of truth. I think this is a greater cause than that of service to others and I believe that was always supposed to be the original charter of the Jedi, but somewhere along the way it got corrupted. Even though I call myself a Ranger now, I still consider myself a Jedi as well. However In my path I have come to a place where I realize I do not subscribe to TotJO denominational philosophy. When I first came back I had actually considered continuing my training, however after the recent announcement that this temple would endorse pseudo-scentific principles with the creation of a "pastor of Energy Healing" I decided that this place had strayed to far from what I believe and hold to be true for me to continue in any sort of honest way.

"denominational philosophy" does not equate to doctrine. I don't really like cake. It's not nasty. I just don't care for it. My kids know that. Yesterday, one of them offered me a piece of her cheesecake. Why? Because cheesecake isn't entirely the same thing. I love cheesecake. Denominational philosophy is Kyrin's way of basically saying that we have to defend TOTJO doctrine and not allow everything under the sun to be presented here as Jediism. Because the last thing we want to see is Jediism turn into something laughable. Honestly, I've already been laughed at simply for the name Jedi. But I couldn't even face my family if I also couldn't defend TOTJO's doctrines. And don't deny anyone's right to hold other views and other beliefs but that's different from forcing those beliefs to be part of TOTJO. This is exactly why watchmen on the walls are needed and pretty much every religion has them.

Kohadre wrote: Then, on top of that; she began to publicly promote her own Jedi community. As long as I’ve been at TOTJO, outside links that drive membership away have been explicitly prohibited.

Warning: Spoiler!

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/47-Journals/118237-kamikeedi-temple-of-the-resurrected-order-of-the-je-daii?start=10#334520

For these reasons alone, Kyrin could have been justifiably removed from the community.

Actually, not at all. You're posting a reference to Kyrin's PRIVATE journal. If TOTJO had the technical ability, no one would even see your private journal except you and the knights. The spirit of this forum is that it's supposed to be private. They're journals, not a discussion forum. So if you're reading people's private journals its more so because TOTJO can't stop you from doing so. Journals are your space to say whatever you want. Therefore, its not a public advertisement in the slightest. Furthermore, your Journal is what knights use primarily to decide who to offer apprenticeship to. So you're posting there with the knowledge of being judged primarily by people in authority. If you were doing something wrong that would be the last place you'd want to put it as well as the least visible spot to advertise. And I would highly recommend you refrain from posting a link to someone's private journal. I don't know if that actually violates and rules but I think it breaks the spirit of the journals being private. If you want to post a link to your own private journal I think that's fine because you're allowed to invite people to them.

another official statement/guidance:

How to Join TotJO
Jedi here fulfill the following criteria:

A belief in the Force. The Force resides within you, surrounds you and flows through you.
Acceptance of our teachings and Doctrine. These serve as spiritual guidance for Jedi. You may hold other spiritual convictions along with being a Jedi.
A completed Membership Application.

Ren - from the rules of the journals forum:

- Masters, Senior Knights or other high ranking members may wish to post in your journal to offer guidance, help with your studies or encourage you to go further. However, journals are not discussion forums. Please refrain from posting in people's journals unless invited to do so.
- Remember that the ultimate goal of your journal will be to make an impression, let your ideas be known. A Master may then take you as his or her apprentice once your Initiate Studies are over. Even if you have finished your exercises, you should regularly update your journal with your thoughts on current events or even revisit and expand previously explored subjects.

If Kyrin had thoughts on the grey path where else were those thoughts supposed to go if not her own private journal? And are you saying that what you share in a private journal should get you kicked off the site? All of these sound like slippery slopes. And I have still yet to hear anything prosecutorial in regard to recent bad behavior. So that's what I'm still waiting for.

I'm hoping that you and I can come to agree on some things. However it may have looked to you as I was rabidly coming to the defense of someone and couldn't be reasoned with

With all due respect, I see some flaws in your interpretation. I understand your preference for the spoilers tag but I'd rather not miss or have to click on a link to see proof of the accuracy of your assertion.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I want to thank participants and moderations for splitting this thread. Good form . I was told to stay away from all “Kyrin “ chat and talk. The pastor has better things to do with it’s time I’m told. Most times I’m a good soldier and listen some times...I’m a good soldier and do as needed.
Smiley face
There is a list of “infractions” I’m not sure will be available or not . The huge problem we had truthfully is the shimming of the rules. The back handed breaking of the rules - the insults of people obviously frank and yet - as a place of free speech we can’t tell others NOT to. Free to be too free. As in other posts - there does come a time and a moment when too much is too much and there does come a point where harm is created rather than help. Over two years of undermining rules and skirting around them in a “civilized diss “ or a grey way of telling people off... is hard to act upon. That was the problem mainly - it was never the concern of a belief and a idea but the actions and behavior. There are other forum platforms that tolerate and expect this type of communication , we don’t... at least we try not to. Behavior is what gets people banned NEVER their ideas or belief. How they act and say - that’s what we often go on. I hope we can learn from what has happened and continue to grow as a community. We are never perfect people but we try as much as possible to create a place of growth. Your wrong for your belief is a way different statement than say - try this or read this and tell me what you find. The words “your wrong” could possibly be a Jeddist worst fear... but that’s just me in my practice. Evidence ... isn’t always evidence like truth isn’t always truth to two different people. If you want to see something - relatively can play a huge part in seeing what your looking for as well as individual focus. Have we made mistakes as a Order and as individuals - I can only speak for myself and only will ever - yup - will we make more - will I make more - yup. Count on it - BUT - count on me to be able to review and meditate and learn from them and to apologize when I am wrong AND find ways to make it right. On said subject - I feel we can learn from this and keep the Temple in the upright position as soon as we apply what - we have learned and move forward.

Kodadre:
At the end of the day, I feel that we as Jedi either choose to allow ourselves to be consumed by emotion, passion, ignorance, and anger; Or we instead choose to forgo emotional attachment and choose a path of logical & methodical examination of arguments and events presented to us.

Essentially, to "Jedi up" is more or less honoring the vows (most) of us took when we signed up at the temple.

ZealotX wrote:

Warning: Spoiler!

Kohadre wrote: If you can't be bothered to encase a post in a spoiler tag, then I am absolutely not going to continue putting in the energy to look through Kyrin's 1000+ posts to provide you the information your looking for.

The spoiler tag is for the purpose of hiding something. It forces people to click the link to show it. If that's your style I can deal with it. However I'm not used to people employing this as you do. But I'll make you a deal/compromise. If you can find 2 uses of the spoiler tag in the following 8 page thread I will use the spoiler tag in responding to you.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/122557-the-empire-strikes-back

And again, the information I'm looking for should be recent. It shouldn't take 1000+ posts in order to show the latest "infraction". And if you are willing to conclude I can't be reasoned with because I don't use your methods then I would say it is you who cannot be reasoned with as you are bringing up information I HAVE TO READ (therefore why put in hidden tags) so I can tell you why it isn't relevant to this case. THAT is also time consuming. And by forcing me to read and respond to things which are irrelevant you're then creating more for you to read and respond to. So really you're doing it to yourself; especially since your evidence has to be interpreted your way. If there isn't clear evidence that I can say "oh yeah Kyrin definitely crossed the line. What the hell was she thinking?" then I don't know why she was banned. But it's cool. You don't have to continue. I've posed questions to Carlos and hopefully he has access to the information I'm looking for.

(without telling me to go use the search function)

ZealotX wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I want to thank participants and moderations for splitting this thread. Good form . I was told to stay away from all “Kyrin “ chat and talk. The pastor has better things to do with it’s time I’m told. Most times I’m a good soldier and listen some times...I’m a good soldier and do as needed.
Smiley face
There is a list of “infractions” I’m not sure will be available or not . The huge problem we had truthfully is the shimming of the rules. The back handed breaking of the rules - the insults of people obviously frank and yet - as a place of free speech we can’t tell others NOT to. Free to be too free. As in other posts - there does come a time and a moment when too much is too much and there does come a point where harm is created rather than help. Over two years of undermining rules and skirting around them in a “civilized diss “ or a grey way of telling people off... is hard to act upon. That was the problem mainly - it was never the concern of a belief and a idea but the actions and behavior. There are other forum platforms that tolerate and expect this type of communication , we don’t... at least we try not to. Behavior is what gets people banned NEVER their ideas or belief. How they act and say - that’s what we often go on. I hope we can learn from what has happened and continue to grow as a community. We are never perfect people but we try as much as possible to create a place of growth. Your wrong for your belief is a way different statement than say - try this or read this and tell me what you find. The words “your wrong” could possibly be a Jeddist worst fear... but that’s just me in my practice. Evidence ... isn’t always evidence like truth isn’t always truth to two different people. If you want to see something - relatively can play a huge part in seeing what your looking for as well as individual focus. Have we made mistakes as a Order and as individuals - I can only speak for myself and only will ever - yup - will we make more - will I make more - yup. Count on it - BUT - count on me to be able to review and meditate and learn from them and to apologize when I am wrong AND find ways to make it right. On said subject - I feel we can learn from this and keep the Temple in the upright position as soon as we apply what - we have learned and move forward.

You're a good man, Carlos. Let me ask you this.

you said "grey way of telling people off". If Grey beliefs are not a problem then why is it a problem when people act on those same beliefs? If I tell my child they can have a toy it is also their expectation to be allowed to play with that toy. Is it not? Parents often tell children what they can and cannot do, what they should or shouldn't do, and as kids get older and less afraid of their parent's reactions they will start asking why, prompting a debate because they want to understand the reason. But I don't recall any debate on the merits of "grey ways" so therefore I fail to understand why an adult, who is allowed to be grey, should be banned for actions considered grey. At the same time, if the person being told off was offended then they have an opportunity to "Jedi Up" as Kohadre said.

Kodadre:
At the end of the day, I feel that we as Jedi either choose to allow ourselves to be consumed by emotion, passion, ignorance, and anger; Or we instead choose to forgo emotional attachment and choose a path of logical & methodical examination of arguments and events presented to us.

Essentially, to "Jedi up" is more or less honoring the vows (most) of us took when we signed up at the temple.

https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/121371-jedi-up?start=70#323211

They can respond in a way that shows the grey way that a lighter path way is better or yields a more desirable outcome. But if you cry or run to the mods or have to be protected by the mods then you miss the learning experience. And often parents do miss actually teaching their children by forcing their will upon them which only works while that parent is around. Instead of knights banning "grey ways" of doing things... it just seems to me that it would make far more sense and be a much more positive thing to create a thread and debate it. Not doing so judges it while concluding that your side, without any argument at all, is superior. I think it is superior and feel no pull towards grey or dark, but I don't arrive at this point without examination or through "blind" faith. We do not need to be a religion of blind faith.

Saying "you're wrong" can definitely be loaded and is inartful as a style of discourse. However, it is ego that reacts to "you're wrong." And when we fuse ego with being right or wrong we can often be blinded to the truth. Some people may need to hear "you're wrong" in order to see that perhaps their ego is anchoring them to that particular view. But banning someone for not using the most diplomatic language is, to me, just as bad or worse, telling someone "you're wrong." Because you ARE saying Kyrin is wrong but there's simply no discussion and the conversation is cut off and maybe welded shut before anyone can really learn from it. If you were only saying the method is wrong... the method can't be banned because its not a person. You're banning the person because you're saying the person is wrong. And not only that, you're saying "I want you to be right in order to live under my roof" at the same time as telling people that they're allowed to subscribe to a grey path. You have to choose because words and actions need to line up consistently. If there are other grey Jedi here but they're acting like the rest of us in order to avoid disciplinary action then are they not violating the spirit of Teaching 9 as well as a number of our Maxims?

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Let me give you a real life example of what I mean by grey area of the rules- no swearing :fair warning - swear words for examples are coming !!!

Warning: Spoiler!

Son of a Bitch
Well I’ll be a son of a bitch
Jokingly : So and so , your a son of a bitch
Your a whore !
Whore !
So and so - your a whore.
Stfu

The words are not swear words and even the letters aren’t yet it’s intention and definition is obvious.
It isn’t the grey way of Jedi ism that is even the problem it’s the skirting around rules. Grey Jedi are not the problem and never was - I have Grey tendency’s as well as Sith myself. Not a big deal. It’s the action of trying to it’s the grey areas of trying to get away with the rules and breaking them. Not the idea of grey - or any other idea - not the problem - action - behavior - then that’s where the Delma comes into play. Grey ways doesn’t get banned or grey ideas but action against the rules do. Flat out. The grey I speak of is shucking and ducking the rules.... not the idea. Please - I want to make that as clear as possible. I understand that people have their own ways as well- I’ve watched carefully many other people create their own ways as well here during their time here. There have even been temples within the temple. Kinna neat but the bulk of it comes the actions. We are free to pick and choose as we are free to practice as we are free to disagree but are we free to crush? Deny others ? Verbally reattribute others? Calling people stupid .. or morons or Publicly disrespect others for their different beliefs ? Back handed insults ? Intentionally going into sections on faith based areas and causing disruption- intentionally - it would be obvious to any one that if you returned to the common focus of a place like this - growth - disruption isn’t the same a cultivation. I could give to all the examples and anything you ask for but in the end - it’s how you perceive it and what your focus is that will make the evidence or the presence of things glow the way you want. Remember - please don’t forget - Because it wasn’t the belief that got K in trouble it was Ks actions toward one another. Intent is the hardest thing to prove but actions speak louder than words - a few months vs a few years reveals much more. My hope is that we all move on and actually learn learn - from this - truly. I will always discuss but when moments come that they begin to repeat or evidence seems to be that - that revolving door of repeating the same subject I gladly bow out. My hope is that we CAN learn and grow.


I apologize for not using spoiler tags n such - truthfully - I don’t know how to use them and code isn’t my strong point. Ide like to learn. I’ve tried before and have done it but I’m mobile most of my entire Temple life and it makes it a bit more difficult for me. I’m old. Lol so in advance please forgive me for not using them above - please -

Kohadre: As you’ve mentioned, Kyrin and myself would identify as “gray” Jedi. Fortunately, the philosophy within said code is not significantly different from the one TOTJO operates upon. However, shortly after Kyrin’s last return to temple affairs; she adopted a more Sith based code.

me to Kyrin: Do you agree with his statement?

Absolutely not. I have never said any of the things he is claiming. I have my own code I have written. It us all I have ever claimed to follow. I have been praised for that code by many knights so it's not sith, just different than totjo. It's a truly grey code, not a grey jedi or a light sith, whatever those terms even mean. I consider them oxymorons lol.

I have also never claimed to be working behind the scenes and that reiki thing was resolved a long time ago. Also any links in my signature were approved by ren and john before I posted them I have never advertised my site. In fact john has advertised it more than anyone! Lol.

ZealotX wrote: In response to Kohadre's assertions I asked Kyrin about her path:

Kohadre: As you’ve mentioned, Kyrin and myself would identify as “gray” Jedi. Fortunately, the philosophy within said code is not significantly different from the one TOTJO operates upon. However, shortly after Kyrin’s last return to temple affairs; she adopted a more Sith based code.

me to Kyrin: Do you agree with his statement?

Kyrin:

Absolutely not. I have never said any of the things he is claiming. I have my own code I have written. It us all I have ever claimed to follow. I have been praised for that code by many knights so it's not sith, just different than totjo. It's a truly grey code, not a grey jedi or a light sith, whatever those terms even mean. I consider them oxymorons lol.

I have also never claimed to be working behind the scenes and that reiki thing was resolved a long time ago. Also any links in my signature were approved by ren and john before I posted them I have never advertised my site. In fact john has advertised it more than anyone! Lol.

So clearly, as Jedi we should be careful regarding the truth and try to guard against the potential of false accusations that could possibly defame someone or cast them in a negative light; ESPECIALLY when discussing disciplinary action.

To my knowledge both you and Kyrin are grey Jedi. That's accepted here. You're an apprentice. Kyrin was an apprentice too which means someone thought she could one day become a knight. So are grey Jedi welcome here or not? Are grey Jedi methods welcome or not? Can grey Jedi become apprentices but never knights? Where is the line of incompatibility drawn as it relates to beliefs? And how much of said beliefs directly play out in behavior?