Accountability of the laws spirit beyond its letter

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17 Jun 2019 17:20 #339809 by Kohadre

ZealotX wrote:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]

[/spoiler]

I'm hoping that you and I can come to agree on some things. However it may have looked to you as I was rabidly coming to the defense of someone and couldn't be reasoned with



Yup, it certaintly does at this point; and honestly I'm not going to put any more energy into this.

With all due respect, I see some flaws in your interpretation. I understand your preference for the spoilers tag but I'd rather not miss or have to click on a link to see proof of the accuracy of your assertion.



If you can't be bothered to encase a post in a spoiler tag, then I am absolutely not going to continue putting in the energy to look through Kyrin's 1000+ posts to provide you the information your looking for.

Remember the doctrine; embody the code.
Live the creed; embrace the 16 teachings.
Honor your vows.

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17 Jun 2019 17:33 #339810 by ZealotX

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I want to thank participants and moderations for splitting this thread. Good form . I was told to stay away from all “Kyrin “ chat and talk. The pastor has better things to do with it’s time I’m told. Most times I’m a good soldier and listen some times...I’m a good soldier and do as needed.
Smiley face
There is a list of “infractions” I’m not sure will be available or not . The huge problem we had truthfully is the shimming of the rules. The back handed breaking of the rules - the insults of people obviously frank and yet - as a place of free speech we can’t tell others NOT to. Free to be too free. As in other posts - there does come a time and a moment when too much is too much and there does come a point where harm is created rather than help. Over two years of undermining rules and skirting around them in a “civilized diss “ or a grey way of telling people off... is hard to act upon. That was the problem mainly - it was never the concern of a belief and a idea but the actions and behavior. There are other forum platforms that tolerate and expect this type of communication , we don’t... at least we try not to. Behavior is what gets people banned NEVER their ideas or belief. How they act and say - that’s what we often go on. I hope we can learn from what has happened and continue to grow as a community. We are never perfect people but we try as much as possible to create a place of growth. Your wrong for your belief is a way different statement than say - try this or read this and tell me what you find. The words “your wrong” could possibly be a Jeddist worst fear... but that’s just me in my practice. Evidence ... isn’t always evidence like truth isn’t always truth to two different people. If you want to see something - relatively can play a huge part in seeing what your looking for as well as individual focus. Have we made mistakes as a Order and as individuals - I can only speak for myself and only will ever - yup - will we make more - will I make more - yup. Count on it - BUT - count on me to be able to review and meditate and learn from them and to apologize when I am wrong AND find ways to make it right. On said subject - I feel we can learn from this and keep the Temple in the upright position as soon as we apply what - we have learned and move forward.


You're a good man, Carlos. Let me ask you this.

you said "grey way of telling people off". If Grey beliefs are not a problem then why is it a problem when people act on those same beliefs? If I tell my child they can have a toy it is also their expectation to be allowed to play with that toy. Is it not? Parents often tell children what they can and cannot do, what they should or shouldn't do, and as kids get older and less afraid of their parent's reactions they will start asking why, prompting a debate because they want to understand the reason. But I don't recall any debate on the merits of "grey ways" so therefore I fail to understand why an adult, who is allowed to be grey, should be banned for actions considered grey. At the same time, if the person being told off was offended then they have an opportunity to "Jedi Up" as Kohadre said.

Kodadre:
At the end of the day, I feel that we as Jedi either choose to allow ourselves to be consumed by emotion, passion, ignorance, and anger; Or we instead choose to forgo emotional attachment and choose a path of logical & methodical examination of arguments and events presented to us.

Essentially, to "Jedi up" is more or less honoring the vows (most) of us took when we signed up at the temple.

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...i-up?start=70#323211

They can respond in a way that shows the grey way that a lighter path way is better or yields a more desirable outcome. But if you cry or run to the mods or have to be protected by the mods then you miss the learning experience. And often parents do miss actually teaching their children by forcing their will upon them which only works while that parent is around. Instead of knights banning "grey ways" of doing things... it just seems to me that it would make far more sense and be a much more positive thing to create a thread and debate it. Not doing so judges it while concluding that your side, without any argument at all, is superior. I think it is superior and feel no pull towards grey or dark, but I don't arrive at this point without examination or through "blind" faith. We do not need to be a religion of blind faith.

Saying "you're wrong" can definitely be loaded and is inartful as a style of discourse. However, it is ego that reacts to "you're wrong." And when we fuse ego with being right or wrong we can often be blinded to the truth. Some people may need to hear "you're wrong" in order to see that perhaps their ego is anchoring them to that particular view. But banning someone for not using the most diplomatic language is, to me, just as bad or worse, telling someone "you're wrong." Because you ARE saying Kyrin is wrong but there's simply no discussion and the conversation is cut off and maybe welded shut before anyone can really learn from it. If you were only saying the method is wrong... the method can't be banned because its not a person. You're banning the person because you're saying the person is wrong. And not only that, you're saying "I want you to be right in order to live under my roof" at the same time as telling people that they're allowed to subscribe to a grey path. You have to choose because words and actions need to line up consistently. If there are other grey Jedi here but they're acting like the rest of us in order to avoid disciplinary action then are they not violating the spirit of Teaching 9 as well as a number of our Maxims?
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17 Jun 2019 17:54 #339812 by ZealotX
Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


The spoiler tag is for the purpose of hiding something. It forces people to click the link to show it. If that's your style I can deal with it. However I'm not used to people employing this as you do. But I'll make you a deal/compromise. If you can find 2 uses of the spoiler tag in the following 8 page thread I will use the spoiler tag in responding to you.

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...-empire-strikes-back

And again, the information I'm looking for should be recent. It shouldn't take 1000+ posts in order to show the latest "infraction". And if you are willing to conclude I can't be reasoned with because I don't use your methods then I would say it is you who cannot be reasoned with as you are bringing up information I HAVE TO READ (therefore why put in hidden tags) so I can tell you why it isn't relevant to this case. THAT is also time consuming. And by forcing me to read and respond to things which are irrelevant you're then creating more for you to read and respond to. So really you're doing it to yourself; especially since your evidence has to be interpreted your way. If there isn't clear evidence that I can say "oh yeah Kyrin definitely crossed the line. What the hell was she thinking?" then I don't know why she was banned. But it's cool. You don't have to continue. I've posed questions to Carlos and hopefully he has access to the information I'm looking for.

(without telling me to go use the search function)

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17 Jun 2019 18:20 #339814 by Kohadre

ZealotX wrote:

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


The spoiler tag is for the purpose of hiding something. It forces people to click the link to show it. If that's your style I can deal with it. However I'm not used to people employing this as you do. But I'll make you a deal/compromise. If you can find 2 uses of the spoiler tag in the following 8 page thread I will use the spoiler tag in responding to you.

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...-empire-strikes-back

And again, the information I'm looking for should be recent. It shouldn't take 1000+ posts in order to show the latest "infraction". And if you are willing to conclude I can't be reasoned with because I don't use your methods then I would say it is you who cannot be reasoned with as you are bringing up information I HAVE TO READ (therefore why put in hidden tags) so I can tell you why it isn't relevant to this case. THAT is also time consuming. And by forcing me to read and respond to things which are irrelevant you're then creating more for you to read and respond to. So really you're doing it to yourself; especially since your evidence has to be interpreted your way. If there isn't clear evidence that I can say "oh yeah Kyrin definitely crossed the line. What the hell was she thinking?" then I don't know why she was banned. But it's cool. You don't have to continue. I've posed questions to Carlos and hopefully he has access to the information I'm looking for.

(without telling me to go use the search function)


Nope, as I said above; I'm done.

Remember the doctrine; embody the code.
Live the creed; embrace the 16 teachings.
Honor your vows.
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17 Jun 2019 18:32 - 17 Jun 2019 18:35 #339815 by Carlos.Martinez3
Let me give you a real life example of what I mean by grey area of the rules- no swearing :fair warning - swear words for examples are coming !!!

Son of a Bitch
Well I’ll be a son of a bitch
Jokingly : So and so , your a son of a bitch
Your a whore !
Whore !
So and so - your a whore.
Stfu

The words are not swear words and even the letters aren’t yet it’s intention and definition is obvious.
It isn’t the grey way of Jedi ism that is even the problem it’s the skirting around rules. Grey Jedi are not the problem and never was - I have Grey tendency’s as well as Sith myself. Not a big deal. It’s the action of trying to it’s the grey areas of trying to get away with the rules and breaking them. Not the idea of grey - or any other idea - not the problem - action - behavior - then that’s where the Delma comes into play. Grey ways doesn’t get banned or grey ideas but action against the rules do. Flat out. The grey I speak of is shucking and ducking the rules.... not the idea. Please - I want to make that as clear as possible. I understand that people have their own ways as well- I’ve watched carefully many other people create their own ways as well here during their time here. There have even been temples within the temple. Kinna neat but the bulk of it comes the actions. We are free to pick and choose as we are free to practice as we are free to disagree but are we free to crush? Deny others ? Verbally reattribute others? Calling people stupid .. or morons or Publicly disrespect others for their different beliefs ? Back handed insults ? Intentionally going into sections on faith based areas and causing disruption- intentionally - it would be obvious to any one that if you returned to the common focus of a place like this - growth - disruption isn’t the same a cultivation. I could give to all the examples and anything you ask for but in the end - it’s how you perceive it and what your focus is that will make the evidence or the presence of things glow the way you want. Remember - please don’t forget - Because it wasn’t the belief that got K in trouble it was Ks actions toward one another. Intent is the hardest thing to prove but actions speak louder than words - a few months vs a few years reveals much more. My hope is that we all move on and actually learn learn - from this - truly. I will always discuss but when moments come that they begin to repeat or evidence seems to be that - that revolving door of repeating the same subject I gladly bow out. My hope is that we CAN learn and grow.


I apologize for not using spoiler tags n such - truthfully - I don’t know how to use them and code isn’t my strong point. Ide like to learn. I’ve tried before and have done it but I’m mobile most of my entire Temple life and it makes it a bit more difficult for me. I’m old. Lol so in advance please forgive me for not using them above - please -

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Last edit: 17 Jun 2019 18:35 by Carlos.Martinez3.
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17 Jun 2019 18:52 #339816 by Carlos.Martinez3

ZealotX wrote:

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: I want to thank participants and moderations for splitting this thread. Good form . I was told to stay away from all “Kyrin “ chat and talk. The pastor has better things to do with it’s time I’m told. Most times I’m a good soldier and listen some times...I’m a good soldier and do as needed.
Smiley face
There is a list of “infractions” I’m not sure will be available or not . The huge problem we had truthfully is the shimming of the rules. The back handed breaking of the rules - the insults of people obviously frank and yet - as a place of free speech we can’t tell others NOT to. Free to be too free. As in other posts - there does come a time and a moment when too much is too much and there does come a point where harm is created rather than help. Over two years of undermining rules and skirting around them in a “civilized diss “ or a grey way of telling people off... is hard to act upon. That was the problem mainly - it was never the concern of a belief and a idea but the actions and behavior. There are other forum platforms that tolerate and expect this type of communication , we don’t... at least we try not to. Behavior is what gets people banned NEVER their ideas or belief. How they act and say - that’s what we often go on. I hope we can learn from what has happened and continue to grow as a community. We are never perfect people but we try as much as possible to create a place of growth. Your wrong for your belief is a way different statement than say - try this or read this and tell me what you find. The words “your wrong” could possibly be a Jeddist worst fear... but that’s just me in my practice. Evidence ... isn’t always evidence like truth isn’t always truth to two different people. If you want to see something - relatively can play a huge part in seeing what your looking for as well as individual focus. Have we made mistakes as a Order and as individuals - I can only speak for myself and only will ever - yup - will we make more - will I make more - yup. Count on it - BUT - count on me to be able to review and meditate and learn from them and to apologize when I am wrong AND find ways to make it right. On said subject - I feel we can learn from this and keep the Temple in the upright position as soon as we apply what - we have learned and move forward.


You're a good man, Carlos. Let me ask you this.

you said "grey way of telling people off". If Grey beliefs are not a problem then why is it a problem when people act on those same beliefs? If I tell my child they can have a toy it is also their expectation to be allowed to play with that toy. Is it not? Parents often tell children what they can and cannot do, what they should or shouldn't do, and as kids get older and less afraid of their parent's reactions they will start asking why, prompting a debate because they want to understand the reason. But I don't recall any debate on the merits of "grey ways" so therefore I fail to understand why an adult, who is allowed to be grey, should be banned for actions considered grey. At the same time, if the person being told off was offended then they have an opportunity to "Jedi Up" as Kohadre said.

Kodadre:
At the end of the day, I feel that we as Jedi either choose to allow ourselves to be consumed by emotion, passion, ignorance, and anger; Or we instead choose to forgo emotional attachment and choose a path of logical & methodical examination of arguments and events presented to us.

Essentially, to "Jedi up" is more or less honoring the vows (most) of us took when we signed up at the temple.

www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-...i-up?start=70#323211

They can respond in a way that shows the grey way that a lighter path way is better or yields a more desirable outcome. But if you cry or run to the mods or have to be protected by the mods then you miss the learning experience. And often parents do miss actually teaching their children by forcing their will upon them which only works while that parent is around. Instead of knights banning "grey ways" of doing things... it just seems to me that it would make far more sense and be a much more positive thing to create a thread and debate it. Not doing so judges it while concluding that your side, without any argument at all, is superior. I think it is superior and feel no pull towards grey or dark, but I don't arrive at this point without examination or through "blind" faith. We do not need to be a religion of blind faith.

Saying "you're wrong" can definitely be loaded and is inartful as a style of discourse. However, it is ego that reacts to "you're wrong." And when we fuse ego with being right or wrong we can often be blinded to the truth. Some people may need to hear "you're wrong" in order to see that perhaps their ego is anchoring them to that particular view. But banning someone for not using the most diplomatic language is, to me, just as bad or worse, telling someone "you're wrong." Because you ARE saying Kyrin is wrong but there's simply no discussion and the conversation is cut off and maybe welded shut before anyone can really learn from it. If you were only saying the method is wrong... the method can't be banned because its not a person. You're banning the person because you're saying the person is wrong. And not only that, you're saying "I want you to be right in order to live under my roof" at the same time as telling people that they're allowed to subscribe to a grey path. You have to choose because words and actions need to line up consistently. If there are other grey Jedi here but they're acting like the rest of us in order to avoid disciplinary action then are they not violating the spirit of Teaching 9 as well as a number of our Maxims?


I will never say any one is wrong. Never - what I will say is there comes times when individuals actions become harmful than beneficial. There is a time When disruption and unbalance can harm. When a place like this and the Knights and the council decide and are fed up with things the way they have happened - and it wasn’t a recent thing - it’s been going on for a while - Years- the choices are made - and they are not made lightly . Please don’t think any one involved did anything overnight. Truthfully what you are witnessing is years of debate and meditation - mediation - chances - tries - warnings - action after action after action... your just now getting the tail end of it all. People are people and we are human and we all have our limits. Everything and everyone has their limits. Try to take some time to think about this? Maybe take a break and see all that’s going on for a bit and come back? Take a time out ? Or at least grant an old man one ? It’s been a long and hard road this one on this subject. It’s hurts. I will say it hurts me. It hurts me to see people go like this. Flat out. Where my personal goals include giving people abilities to make freedoms and fly and create - then this ... it hurts my heart. But that’s me. I may never get over the fact that things worked the way they did but - I can continue to move on and keep growing. Trying . Trees get cut down all the time here where I live for homes and businesses- kinna sucks - but I keep on.

Contact The Clergy
Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
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Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova

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17 Jun 2019 22:30 #339821 by Adder
Remember.... asking someone is most effectively done by contacting them. It is not very effective posting it in a discussion (especially if they havet posed in) and expecting them to see it.

But if one is unfamiliar with someones posts, then the Search featue here works well.... but mixing hyptheticals into real cases seems a bit dodgy- unless clearly stated as much.

The spirit revealed is more the intent of the person testing the rules. That can be either postive or negative - only time tells, and if a lot of time is given, and multiple mediations are attempted to clarify both sides, then at some point a determination seems required. Rules can change rather then be ignored or skirted around, but they should only be improvements, and Knights are being used by Council more nowto determine that.

Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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17 Jun 2019 22:39 #339822 by ZealotX

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: Let me give you a real life example of what I mean by grey area of the rules- no swearing :fair warning - swear words for examples are coming !!!

Warning: Spoiler! [ Click to expand ]


The words are not swear words and even the letters aren’t yet it’s intention and definition is obvious.
It isn’t the grey way of Jedi ism that is even the problem it’s the skirting around rules. Grey Jedi are not the problem and never was - I have Grey tendency’s as well as Sith myself. Not a big deal. It’s the action of trying to it’s the grey areas of trying to get away with the rules and breaking them. Not the idea of grey - or any other idea - not the problem - action - behavior - then that’s where the Delma comes into play. Grey ways doesn’t get banned or grey ideas but action against the rules do. Flat out. The grey I speak of is shucking and ducking the rules.... not the idea. Please - I want to make that as clear as possible. I understand that people have their own ways as well- I’ve watched carefully many other people create their own ways as well here during their time here. There have even been temples within the temple. Kinna neat but the bulk of it comes the actions. We are free to pick and choose as we are free to practice as we are free to disagree but are we free to crush? Deny others ? Verbally reattribute others? Calling people stupid .. or morons or Publicly disrespect others for their different beliefs ? Back handed insults ? Intentionally going into sections on faith based areas and causing disruption- intentionally - it would be obvious to any one that if you returned to the common focus of a place like this - growth - disruption isn’t the same a cultivation. I could give to all the examples and anything you ask for but in the end - it’s how you perceive it and what your focus is that will make the evidence or the presence of things glow the way you want. Remember - please don’t forget - Because it wasn’t the belief that got K in trouble it was Ks actions toward one another. Intent is the hardest thing to prove but actions speak louder than words - a few months vs a few years reveals much more. My hope is that we all move on and actually learn learn - from this - truly. I will always discuss but when moments come that they begin to repeat or evidence seems to be that - that revolving door of repeating the same subject I gladly bow out. My hope is that we CAN learn and grow.


I apologize for not using spoiler tags n such - truthfully - I don’t know how to use them and code isn’t my strong point. Ide like to learn. I’ve tried before and have done it but I’m mobile most of my entire Temple life and it makes it a bit more difficult for me. I’m old. Lol so in advance please forgive me for not using them above - please -


You don't have to apologize to me for not using spoilers ( but you could have replaced the b word with b**** or something like that). Most forums actually have automated blocking of foul language based on the age of the person's account so my stance on it is that it's a good rule to enforce in order to protect minors (of course according to that spirit you just violated the rule) but outside of that I think its a little heavy handed when you're talking about adults having adult conversations. So I take your point, but using stars and abbreviations are not regarded the same in our society or by FCC standards. One could go too far and try to ban words like "darn" and then we're not having adult conversations. I just saw something on PBS and they repeated Trump's foul language but the station beeped it out. Therefore, the violation didn't happen, not because of the person but because of the platform. I believe the spirit of such rules should take this into account. If not then I have to assume that EVERYONE who has used the abbreviation for "shut the f up" as well as "get the f out" have been warned or disciplined. Because again, my issue isn't with the rules. Rules are awesome. But we cannot selectively enforce those rules. Wouldn't you agree? Doing so could absolutely prejudice enforcement officers against certain members or use a history of such selective enforcement to discriminate against people they simply don't like.

Honestly, outside of protecting children I see no harm in foul language at all. Using words that are subjectively bad does not make one immoral (and therefore doesn't break Jedi code) for using them. It always amazes me that people can make up words that other people aren't allowed to say. But again, one of my issues is potential for "excessive force" which is basically an abuse of power. I saw a story on the news just today out of Texas. A 4 year old took a toy from a store and police aggressively stopped the parent's vehicle, guns drawn, even saying "you're gonna get shot". It was a shoplifting call! The male, who I presume is the father, had his leg kicked out from under him as well as put on the ground. And the mother was like "don't point that at my children". She was pregnant and holding a child when she was told to put her hands up; as if they were willing to have a shoot out with the police with a 4 yr old and a pregnant mom over shoplifting. At that point who are the police protecting? What about that family? I hear what you're saying, but punishments have to fit the crime and I absolutely hate the 3 strikes laws as it has been some of the worse mass incarceration legislation in the US.

And yes, my opinion of Kyrin's past infractions may not be as bad as yours. Assuming I got to see them. Without seeing them at all I have to take people word for it when it appears from older threads that not all of Kyrin's punishments were deserved even in the eyes of authority. What I've heard so far, and even the examples I've heard, haven't risen to the level, imho, of the highest possible disciplinary action and seems more like people are tired of dealing with her and acting more out of frustration which is more of an emotional response. And weighing a person's past mistakes or misdeeds when there hasn't been disciplinary action taken is one thing. Doing it when disciplinary has been taken is like saying "I know you stole some candy but we're gonna go ahead and lock up for 10 years because of the stuff you did 5 years ago." Some great lessons to learn from Christianity on forgiveness, I think.

Would you support the creation of a secondary forum that is hidden from the general public for the express purpose of debating topics of interest? Such a forum could decrease the fear of people leaving as a result of not being able to handle perceived slights and disrespectful comments even though Jedi should be equipped to handle such things. It could also have a separate registration/approval process and deny access to minors and allow guests only by invitation of a knight.
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17 Jun 2019 22:45 - 17 Jun 2019 22:46 #339823 by ZealotX
In response to Kohadre's assertions I asked Kyrin about her path:

Kohadre: As you’ve mentioned, Kyrin and myself would identify as “gray” Jedi. Fortunately, the philosophy within said code is not significantly different from the one TOTJO operates upon. However, shortly after Kyrin’s last return to temple affairs; she adopted a more Sith based code.

me to Kyrin: Do you agree with his statement?


Kyrin:

Absolutely not. I have never said any of the things he is claiming. I have my own code I have written. It us all I have ever claimed to follow. I have been praised for that code by many knights so it's not sith, just different than totjo. It's a truly grey code, not a grey jedi or a light sith, whatever those terms even mean. I consider them oxymorons lol.

I have also never claimed to be working behind the scenes and that reiki thing was resolved a long time ago. Also any links in my signature were approved by ren and john before I posted them I have never advertised my site. In fact john has advertised it more than anyone! Lol.



So clearly, as Jedi we should be careful regarding the truth and try to guard against the potential of false accusations that could possibly defame someone or cast them in a negative light; ESPECIALLY when discussing disciplinary action.
Last edit: 17 Jun 2019 22:46 by ZealotX.

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18 Jun 2019 00:55 - 18 Jun 2019 01:20 #339828 by Kohadre

ZealotX wrote: In response to Kohadre's assertions I asked Kyrin about her path:

Kohadre: As you’ve mentioned, Kyrin and myself would identify as “gray” Jedi. Fortunately, the philosophy within said code is not significantly different from the one TOTJO operates upon. However, shortly after Kyrin’s last return to temple affairs; she adopted a more Sith based code.

me to Kyrin: Do you agree with his statement?


Kyrin:

Absolutely not. I have never said any of the things he is claiming. I have my own code I have written. It us all I have ever claimed to follow. I have been praised for that code by many knights so it's not sith, just different than totjo. It's a truly grey code, not a grey jedi or a light sith, whatever those terms even mean. I consider them oxymorons lol.

I have also never claimed to be working behind the scenes and that reiki thing was resolved a long time ago. Also any links in my signature were approved by ren and john before I posted them I have never advertised my site. In fact john has advertised it more than anyone! Lol.



So clearly, as Jedi we should be careful regarding the truth and try to guard against the potential of false accusations that could possibly defame someone or cast them in a negative light; ESPECIALLY when discussing disciplinary action.

To my knowledge both you and Kyrin are grey Jedi. That's accepted here. You're an apprentice. Kyrin was an apprentice too which means someone thought she could one day become a knight. So are grey Jedi welcome here or not? Are grey Jedi methods welcome or not? Can grey Jedi become apprentices but never knights? Where is the line of incompatibility drawn as it relates to beliefs? And how much of said beliefs directly play out in behavior?


YOUR words, not mine.

That takes real nerve, to author an argument like that; and then orchestrate it in such a manner to implicate me as responsible.

Take responsibility for your own content.

Remember the doctrine; embody the code.
Live the creed; embrace the 16 teachings.
Honor your vows.
Last edit: 18 Jun 2019 01:20 by Kohadre.

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