Knightism vs the Force Discussion

Pardon the temporary derailment, but something needs to be pointed out here...

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: why others leave is on them. If My focus was on every one else and what “they” do .., boo, I wouldn’t have time for ... crayons going one drawer higher - pampers melt in the Maytag dryer ... watching veggies for the 16 th time and it’s finally Friday ... mr mom!!!

This common disregard for what others think who have divulged a huge chunk of their time & energy here (particularly speaking, Knights & Apprentices) is the fundamental reason why most left (and continue to leave) in the first place...

Kira wrote: For non-knights,

What value do you see in these titles beyond being recognized for achievement? For those that aspire to knighthood as envisioned by this community, what do you expect to get out of this training? What goals do you want to achieve with regards to study of the Force, engaging with the public, bettering yourself? Do you engage with the public ex. helping the poor and vulnerable in your community in some way? Do you feel that engaging with the public should be a priority, or duty of knighthood? Why, or why not? What training have you sought to prepare yourself for this work?

Edit: Clarification. The question about community service is about the dynamic between achieving knighthood and service to the community. My intent was not to ask specifics about your service to the community. (thanks Arisaig)

I dont see the title as being recognized for achievement. I see the degree of the A-Div as being recognized for achievement. Beyond that the title of Knight is just an acceptance of a philosophical world view embedded in esoteric concepts of service and a means for this temple to reward that acceptance by giving them special access to secret parts of the forum. The two (title and degree) are mutually exclusive though. I do the training for myself and for my mentors. We embark on an agreement to explore this thing called life and sharpen each other as steel sharpens steel in the process. And when I give back I do it as I see fit, not as some limited set of predefined principles set in a dogmatic decree in a hope for reward. I want the work, you can keep the badge.

True Knightly behavior is not in doctrine or dogma or some idea of service to humanity. Knightly behavior is in honor and dedication and perseverance and commitment. I don’t carry dogma into service, I carry honor into every aspect of my life. The former is someone with a title, the latter is someone with character. Those Knights that have trained here and left to carry that sense of duty out into the world have my respect. Those Knights that left here in a huff complaining of some slight put on them because this or that didn’t go their way have mistaken that tin badge they received for honor. The two are quite different. The first will fold and bend and melt under the heat, the second will carry you through the fires of hell.

Kira,

This is just my personal view and something I think about because being a Knight is a title. For some a bench mark of accomplishment, I know for me personally there is a little ego stroke there for going through the training, that said. If I get to that point I am trying currently to train myself to think of the title as a contract between myself and this exact temple.

Meaning that now that I hold this title, I am duty bound to give back to this community for what it has given me. That little rank bar should serve as a reminder to me that I signed on for that and that my time is not wasted even in comments and times when I may appear to not be. It is also, a little more strict contract to act in accordance with this temple's rules and standard practices.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

What value do you see in these titles beyond being recognized for achievement?

IP was curiosity, which led to Knighthood being two fold;
1. pathway to Degree program to focus my study and support the enabling institution, and
2. a chance for me to mark a milestone in the maturation of an existing path (since the Jedi path turned out to be important in my pre-existing path) .

Beyond that recognition had nothing to do with it, as I don't advertise it.... and was not part of the community enough before getting Knighthood for it to mean anything either.

As I said earlier, IMO it's what you make it. And if one is always looking for external validation then they will never ever be satisfied (being something that seems to go to the concepts of grasping and speaks to a nature of imbalance in self worth IMO - something Buddhism talks a lot about eg).

In achieving your title, did you further your goals with regards to study of the Force? How?

How; Discover, develop and exercise frameworks to engage beyond familiar modes (and of course improve existing modes or find new modes to use the Force).
During or as a result of the Apprenticeship;As someone with borderline social anxiety disorder I went and got a job doing real estate for a bit over a year, just solely to exercise the application of my path Which if you knew me you'd know was so very not me!
Ongoing; continued work in reading and experimenting with various systems in the invention of a custom effective system of connection to the Force for effect.

Is there a relationship, positive or negative, between your involvement in the community as a knight and your ability to engage with the public ex. helping the poor and vulnerable in your community in some way?

In terms of view most definitely, but action not so much seeking it but rather having the view such that if circumstances allow it then yes. It's not really something I run into, and no spare time to seek it out is a common excuse and one I'd use in this instance.

Is engaging with the public a priority, or a duty of knighthood? Why, or why not?

Capability to yes.
Willingness to depends on circumstances.
Necessity to do so ongoingly..... probably not.

How has your training prepared you for this kind of work?

To me Knighthood is not about growing up per se. I did mine in my late 30's after having a successful career.... so it was more about working on connecting to the Force and the mental and spiritual side - as the main focus of ones life moving forward (and why I see it synonymous with the clerical calling). As indicated I did work on my weak areas, which happened to be social but the wider priorities I think need to be self capability plus the capability to engage beyond self.

Funny thing I have learned while at TOTJO - and in life - no one will do anything for you or answer any questions directly - it was frustration in the beginning. Now after time and experience it seems to be a knight here you have freedoms you have to actually create and act on. Wanna start a circle - minister - encourage - teach - you name it - you have the ability to do it without anyone’s “permission.” Knights -self sufficancy is a key aspect of the romance. Who wants a knight they have to watch or monitor or even listen to complain about the establishment all- ALL the time. No one really. Regardless of reasons people claim say or tell others - I wish more people had a bit of iron in their constitution. Less boats in dock and more out at sea. But that’s just my own opinion. Not fact at all- just hope really ... harrumph ... smiley face

This place can be a Temple, a School, both and neither. Some would say that it is a sacred place. Some would say a stopover on our journey through life. Neither are wrong.

Some find they have found what they needed and moved onward, others did not find what they sought here and moved onward, and others have stayed. None of these paths are wrong. We each walk our individual paths, and for a time, we may share our paths with others, we may help and guide each other, but the path is ours to walk.

Completing the work to receive the A-Div is not the same as completing the work to achieve Knighthood here at this Temple. For many Apprentices here, receiving the A-Div in points/lessons is accomplished early during their Apprenticeship. Completing lessons does not make you a Knight. We are only ready for Knighthood once we have shown our training master, the Knight’s Corps, and the Council that we are already walking the path of a Knight through our deeds and actions.

As to your specific question about the little value I place on the achievements of degree and title, I have been here quite a while. I have several degrees, titles, schools, medals, awards, ranks, belts and other such things, all are mostly sitting in boxes somewhere long forgotten about. They are a glimpse of some of the things accomplished, learned, and experienced on my path. They do not define me, they are descriptors others can use to understand some of the life experiences and lessons I have learned along the way. But they do not tell you who I am. Some will use those things to fit me into an image they will use to understand/describe me based on their own life experiences.

For me, I reflect on past experiences to gain insight for my current and future actions and deeds. To dwell on the actions, deeds, awards, accolades of my past are hollow ego stroking. Wearing titles, awards, degrees as some kind of badge of honor or accomplishment is shallow and ego stroking. We cannot rest on our accomplishments of past deeds and actions. I saw too many do this in the military to the detriment of the troops under them. There is more to be done. The work, is just that, work. We work at things every day of our life. We do not need a title or degree for successfully navigating our daily life. All of this stuff, they are steps. We are students throughout our life. We are constantly learning and completing life lessons. If we focus on the work, we lose focus of the path. Self-transformation is going to/is happening to us all of the time. We do not truly control it. We are products of our deeds, actions and experiences. Some we are able to guide, others are guided for us. We are not ever truly in control of every step of our life. We act and react to the world around us. Sometimes we have to flow with what is happening in the now.

If you come to this Temple for self, that is wonderful! There are plenty of things here that will be able to help us on our paths. Some are here for the pursuit of betterment, others are not. Service to self, many will say is selfish, but if you better the self, you are better able to serve others. So is it truly selfish?

If you are here to serve, and help others, you may be selfish. What does one get out of service to others? Acknowledgement, ego stroking, the good feeling of helping others? Is it selfish or selfless action?

Zenchi wrote: Pardon the temporary derailment, but something needs to be pointed out here...

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: why others leave is on them. If My focus was on every one else and what “they” do .., boo, I wouldn’t have time for ... crayons going one drawer higher - pampers melt in the Maytag dryer ... watching veggies for the 16 th time and it’s finally Friday ... mr mom!!!

This common disregard for what others think who have divulged a huge chunk of their time & energy here (particularly speaking, Knights & Apprentices) is the fundamental reason why most left (and continue to leave) in the first place...

People leave when their ideas are rejected? As it is impossible to please all, and at best only possible to please some, then for as long as people are incapable of handling rejection they will leave.

In fact, if people weren't so used to pretend support, care and whatnot, do you not think they would simply be capable of accepting they can't have it their way, in the same way most regular adults can?


Obviously this is based on the premise people do leave because they are being disregarded, which may or may not be true.

As we discuss ideas and not people, and as such it is likely that the amount of time they have spent at totjo will not affect their ideas' perceived merits in any way, are you implying People leave because others are not biased towards them?

I think those arguments are easy to make from a seat of power.
I think some people leave because they see the same issues popping up without solutions. Which is ok if we are not interested in growth as an organization.
When I became a Knight, more specifically a Councillor, I lost the option to be simply self-concerned.
I don't think any of us ARE really soley self concerned. I think we (in a general sense) simply don't like whatever ideas there are.
Pardon me for being a bit of a risk taker, but I like to try an idea first to figure out its weaknesses. And before we bring up history, what didn't work once MAY not work again, or it. MAY, but the people here and now, with a vested interest, need to know why. Only evidence can show that.

A couple of other points. I believe that this is the Order of the next generations. As soon as I started training apprentices and leading, this stopped being my Order.

Carlos is right in a couple respects, we can't be so concerned by others, who are here or those who have left, that we forget about why WE are here. The problem with people leaving is that their ideas never get a chance to mature. Believe me, I've been in the boat leaving at the first sign of trouble. The problem is, when those people with fresh ideas leave, it leaves us with only the old and tired ideas. It makes us stagnate. Fortitude is required.