Knightism vs the Force Discussion

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5 years 2 months ago #334263 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion
It's weird how it works. For me, Knighthood is not a title of completion, but rather of the stuff you are going to do. Like in politics, as you said.

We get the A-Div (Associates of Divinity) to show the work we have done in the past.

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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334264 by Adder
I see it as more of a gift then a trade, something personal - a personal milestone, and one not really attributed to nor dependent on the Temple or even the Master. One then does not have to stay or participate necessarily, but that the concept of duty is inherent to the path and as such the Temple is an opportunity for that part of the Jedi's continued journey. Having a transactional view of things tends towards viewing all things unnecessarily judgmentally IMO.

I've no problem with Knights leaving, but do understand some either track away from the path or take issue with how they see the Temple relating to their path...... which to me strikes me as being not ready for it - but that these things can occur alongside of, or as a result of other unrelated issues, like personality conflicts etc. That is probably not the fault of the Temple or Master, as its not indoctrinations but rather an opportunity IMO, its what you make it individually and together as a pairing.

For Apprentices have to beware of Knightism, but also Knights have to be beware of Senior Knightism, and Senior Knights beware of Masterism etc. It being not so much a structural issue but rather one of misplaced expectations - and so the question for me becomes does the site enable that. Be it caused from ignorance through privacy leading to fear of missing out, or creating great expectations about what is to come etc.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
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Last edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Adder.
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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334268 by Proteus

Adder wrote: I see it as more of a gift then a trade, something personal - a personal milestone, and one not really attributed to nor dependent on the Temple or even the Master. One then does not have to stay or participate necessarily, but that the concept of duty is inherent to the path and as such the Temple is an opportunity for that part of the Jedi's continued journey. Having a transactional view of things tends towards viewing all things unnecessarily judgmentally IMO.

I've no problem with Knights leaving, but do understand some either track away from the path or take issue with how they see the Temple relating to their path...... which to me strikes me as being not ready for it - but that these things can occur alongside of, or as a result of other unrelated issues, like personality conflicts etc. That is probably not the fault of the Temple or Master, as its not indoctrinations but rather an opportunity IMO, its what you make it individually and together as a pairing.

For Apprentices have to beware of Knightism, but also Knights have to be beware of Senior Knightism, and Senior Knights beware of Masterism etc. It being not so much a structural issue but rather one of misplaced expectations - and so the question for me becomes does the site enable that. Be it caused from ignorance through privacy leading to fear of missing out, or creating great expectations about what is to come etc.


This is a good extension of where I was hoping to go earlier in this thread.

Also, I think that while there is obvious and necessary utility to knights here being technical assets to the temple, it's more and more rare that I hear of people acknowledging the personal importance of the knighthood process, and it makes it feel like it's turning into simply some online job position at the end of the day. I hope we can make sure it doesn't end up being this or assuming it. :/

“For it is easy to criticize and break down the spirit of others, but to know yourself takes a lifetime.”
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5 years 2 months ago #334281 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion
Rank to me is merely a readily identifiable way to identify the level of service and responsibility to the community.

Titles are just names given and/or awarded to people for achievements or descriptions of things accomplished. These mean very little to me.

Pursuing rank or title, is a chasing your tail pursuit. It is a shallow and pointless act. One should seriously think about the reasons why they want to achieve a rank or title. A lot of Jediism talks about mindfulness and ego checking. Both are very good things to think of when deciding on why they want something.

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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334286 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion

Zephyrus wrote: Oh, and if you're going to become a Knight, and then not give back to this community... Leave now. This is not a university where you get a degree and peace out. This is a temple where you live, learn, and then serve.

In fact, I wish Knighthood came with a signed promise to work here for three years before leaving. As the most basic repayment for the services the Knights provided you as a Novice and Apprentice.



Karn wrote: Titles are just names given and/or awarded to people for achievements or descriptions of things accomplished. These mean very little to me.

Pursuing rank or title, is a chasing your tail pursuit. It is a shallow and pointless act. One should seriously think about the reasons why they want to achieve a rank or title.






I found both of these comments quite interesting. This place has been described as a temple but also as a school recently. So what is the difference, is it one or the other, or is it both? I would see a temple as a stopping point where a home can be found but a school is a hall to pass through and move on to other things when training is completed.

Zephyrus, how do you see becoming a knight vs just achieving the A-Div here? Both require the same amount of training and input of time, however one does not carry the title of Knight. Do you feel that the degree should not be earned without also taking on the title? And why do you believe that achieving either automatically consigns you to service? The knights that do the training have their own calling, but that calling may not be the calling of the students they train.

Karn, why does the achievement of that required work to accomplish the degree or the title mean so little to you? The work is hard and can be quite transforming. So I’m wondering why you put so little value on it? For many here the work is the focus, a process of self-transformation. It has little to do with service to others but service to self in the pursuit of betterment. Is one any less valid a pursuit than the other? In either case the commitment to complete the work is a worthy undertaking so what is so meaningless about it to you?
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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334287 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion
Kyrin,

I feel like I wrote about this somewhere already but I can’t find it now...

I believe that A Div. is a sign of the work completed; and I believe that Knighthood is a promise made to the Community and to yourself.

Edit: and yes, I think they should be awarded separately. I have my A Div. even though I rescinded my knighthood.
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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334305 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion
Thank you to everyone who has shared their thoughts so far.

For knights,

What value do you see in these titles beyond being recognized for achievement? In achieving your title, did you further your goals with regards to study of the Force? How? Is there a relationship, positive or negative, between your involvement in the community as a knight and your ability to engage with the public ex. helping the poor and vulnerable in your community in some way? Is engaging with the public a priority, or a duty of knighthood? Why, or why not? How has your training prepared you for this kind of work?

For non-knights,

What value do you see in these titles beyond being recognized for achievement? For those that aspire to knighthood as envisioned by this community, what do you expect to get out of this training? What goals do you want to achieve with regards to study of the Force, engaging with the public, bettering yourself? Do you engage with the public ex. helping the poor and vulnerable in your community in some way? Do you feel that engaging with the public should be a priority, or duty of knighthood? Why, or why not? What training have you sought to prepare yourself for this work?

Edit: Clarification. The question about community service is about the dynamic between achieving knighthood and service to the community. My intent was not to ask specifics about your service to the community. (thanks Arisaig)
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5 years 2 months ago #334309 by
Replied by on topic Knightism vs the Force Discussion

Kira (with minor edits from Arisaig) wrote: 1) What value do you see in these titles beyond being recognized for achievement?
2) In achieving your title, did you further your goals with regards to study of the Force? How?
3) Is there a relationship, positive or negative, between your involvement in the community as a knight and your ability to engage with the public ex. helping the poor and vulnerable in your community in some way? Is engaging with the public a priority, or a duty of knighthood? Why, or why not?
4) How has your training prepared you for this kind of work?


Excellent questions. Thank you.:) I've divided them up so I can tackle them properly. I'm not yet a knight, but am recognised and... 2 days now away from becoming one, so I'll answer for that side for simplicity's sake. XD

1) Really, not much. Its nice to be recognised for an accomplishment, and to have been acknowledged by my peers as someone worthy of such a title. I'd still be me without the title, and I'd still help others without it. But, in the end, I am still Arisaig, and above all things, I follow the Force.

2) As a Knight, one is allowed to take on students. My firm belief is that teaching is a huge part of learning. It rec-enforces what you've learned, and you can see WHY you learned things in a different light, on the other end. Also, as a Knight, you need to be an example. I've been known to be a bit of a hothead. But my pursuit of said rank meant I had to get that under control in order to even be considered for it. So... in taking on students, one can learn more about this Force through a different avenue previously closed off from them within this community. And, through the pursuit of said rank, I've had to learn to become more attuned to this Force and my affect on it, and in turn, myself.

3) The Force is with all things. It is hard to help people over text, as this forum is mostly restricted to. But it is easier to help people in our day to day, our community, our workplaces, our commutes, et cetera. I don't like talking about how I help people, or what I've done as it feels... I dunno, egotistical? Like bragging? But I do my share, I enjoy helping people, making people's day better. It can be as simple as holding open a door. It can be as intensive as cleaning a park of garbage. All Jedi should do this, not just Knights. But, as Knights (examples of the community) it can and should be their prerogative to help those in their day to day life.

4) Simply by helping me fix myself. One cannot remove the splinter from their neighbours eye when they themselves have a log in their own. Tie your own shoes before offering to do so for another. My preparation has been in preparing me for being bold, in not being shy in going above and beyond in serving others. In short, I had to confront my own demons before I could start fixing the world around me. I've not conquered them, but I do know how to handle them, and how best to deal with them when they dare to rise. And, in having trained to do this, I am more often able to step beyond my comfort zone and assist others when no one else will.

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5 years 2 months ago - 5 years 2 months ago #334315 by Zenchi
Warning: Spoiler!


I am very proud of you, in words I can't express. You already are a much better Knight than myself....

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 5 years 2 months ago by Zenchi.
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5 years 2 months ago #334317 by Carlos.Martinez3
To be a knight in our Order we have a set of rules. They change , grow and update with time , but for the most part here- to be a knight here at Totjo is a privilege and a choice.

As with all tools or opertunity s in life and in the world... do or don’t do - that’s to us personally to decide and make happen. Sooooo much of TOTJO is —- self paced . Kinna hard to blame when words like” self “are used. Nothing keeps anyone from staying and learning - self paced thing again... so truthfully - why others leave is on them. If My focus was on every one else and what “they” do .., boo, I wouldn’t have time for ... crayons going one drawer higher - pampers melt in the Maytag dryer ... watching veggies for the 16 th time and it’s finally Friday ... mr mom!!!

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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