Knightism vs the Force Discussion

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: that wasnt my question. I asked why is it hidden from everyone below that rank? Its just a training forum right? Why deny all below that rank the wisdom being taught there?

You're assuming we're hiding wisdom. no one here is. Musashi is wisdom. Sun Tzu is wisdom. Bruce Lee is wisdom. And guess what? They're not exclusive to the apprentice forums...

LOL.. wow you guys are quick to cry conspiracy! I said nothing about conspiracy. I said privilege. Higher ranks have higher privilege and that causes pursuit. And that pursuit, because of those hidden areas, causes greater and greater compartmentalization here at the temple. This continues until you get to the highest ranks where you are so far removed from the general populace that you cease to matter. And then things progress in a fashion that is not deemed acceptable and people leave as a result. Its a self defeating system.

As for your comment on the sensitive nature of the apprentice forum Arisaig, So the general populace cant see those posts but any apprentice can? Whats the difference? Are we to trust apprentices more? Once again implying more special privilege. I know that even you have taken certain lessons off line when they were sensitive as we all have so I dont buy that. So now, why do apprentices get this special trust the rest do not? I dont know any of the apprentices here any more than any of the rest of you, so why as an apprentice do they get to see special information that others don't?

I'm struggling to keep-up with this thread LOL - so this is longer than it should be . . .

Kyrin said:
"I believe I do that every day. In fact I am one of the few that actually does in the open forum. But this discussion was about knightly pursuit vs force discussion and my point was that people covet that Knight title because it affords greater privilege to take on apprentices and that in itself is an unspoken position of esteem that many desire. What would happen if we got rid of all the ranks except members and guests? Becoming a member requires completing the IP in some form and at that point they enjoy all the privileges and responsibilities of the temple. Do you think a more productive set of group discussions would evolve out of the membership about philosophy or whatever instead of this constant compartmentalized and hidden pursuit of rank?"

Taking on an Apprentice is a great responsibility, and I agree, it is a huge privilege. I disagree that it is an unspoken position of esteem. It is definitely spoken about! We could certainly get rid of the ranks but we would still need to assign positions of responsibility to certain, capable people in order for the Temple to function in all the ways it does. There would still be roles like Pastor, Moderator, Security Officer, PR Officer, Website Admin, those deemed responsible enough to support Apprentices etc etc. - there's no getting away from that. Whether the roles of responsibility have 'badges' or not, is neither here nor there - the potential for tyrannical behaviour is the same.

I also disagree that the pursuit of rank is hidden - it seems very obvious to me. Personally I find it helpful that there is such a transparent hierarchy. Hierarchy has become a dirty word in recent years and with some good reason. Hierarchies can be dangerous and they can be abused, but they are also helpful, if properly controlled. Personally I prefer hierarchies where I can see them. If they become hidden - that's when they can really get out of control.

Removing ranks would be akin to turning TOTJO into Reddit. There's nothing wrong with Reddit - but that already exists! From what I can see, the discussion on Reddit (or anywhere else) isn't higher in calibre than it is here . . .

The forums here are minimally compartmentalized - that level of compartmentalization hasn't grown (at least in the 4 years I've been around). Much like the word 'hierarchy', 'privilege' - isn't a dirty word. Privilege should be earned and the way to earn those privileges is made very obvious here. There is utility in the compartmentalization. Apprentices sometimes want (and sometimes need) to talk amongst other apprentices, knights sometimes want (and sometimes need) to talk amongst other knights.

They get that trust because they earned it. If they betray that trust the privileges are removed (temporarily or permanently). Does it make a difference whether those compartments are on-site or off-site? Not really, and, I would much rather they were on-site. Would taking them off-site make you feel this was a fairer, more egalitarian, place Kyrin? They will exist one way or another . . .

If you are after special information (I am biased here) - all the special information you will ever need is in the Library - it isn't to be found in the Knight's Forum, or the Council . . .

Loudzoo wrote: Taking on an Apprentice is a great responsibility, and I agree, it is a huge privilege. I disagree that it is an unspoken position of esteem. It is definitely spoken about!

I agree! The point to my comment is that others were downplaying the esteem of the rank and saying it didn’t really exist. The down side of this is that it sets those individuals of higher ranks on pedestals to those of lower ranks quite often. Especially in the case of younger or less experiences members. It’s one thing to respect the rank, it’s another to worship it.

Loudzoo wrote: We could certainly get rid of the ranks but we would still need to assign positions of responsibility to certain, capable people in order for the Temple to function in all the ways it does. There would still be roles like Pastor, Moderator, Security Officer, PR Officer, Website Admin, those deemed responsible enough to support Apprentices etc etc. - there's no getting away from that. Whether the roles of responsibility have 'badges' or not, is neither here nor there - the potential for tyrannical behaviour is the same.

I also disagree that the pursuit of rank is hidden - it seems very obvious to me.

My suggestion was only to discuss the removal of the “training” ranks. The point of this discussion was why is the temple so focused on knighthood and not just force discussion. Well the training regime here is incredibly compartmentalized in that regard. Because of this the pursuit of rank is hidden. For example Arisaig just achieved Knighthood, but who can read that process that he went through to get there? No one but apprentices and above. If you’re not an apprentice or above that process he went through is hidden. It seems very obvious to you because you are a Knight! Try putting yourself in a meer members shoes though. That process is quite overwhelming from that standpoint. I remember my own time coming up, I had no idea what it meant to be an apprentice or how it worked or how to achieve it. In fact I even got conflicting information from two different knights on procedure. It was incredibly difficult to get info or learn the process and it was very hidden. In that regard the hierarchy is not transparent at all. Most Council members never leaves their chambers either. You see a different perspective because you have more access.

Loudzoo wrote: Removing ranks would be akin to turning TOTJO into Reddit. There's nothing wrong with Reddit - but that already exists! From what I can see, the discussion on Reddit (or anywhere else) isn't higher in calibre than it is here . . .

And Im not even advocating for the removal of ranks. Im just suggesting input on what it might be like if we did that or if we restructured things so that open discussion and free reading would be more radially available in the training areas of the forum.

Loudzoo wrote: Would taking them off-site make you feel this was a fairer, more egalitarian, place Kyrin? They will exist one way or another . .

If you are after special information (I am biased here) - all the special information you will ever need is in the Library - it isn't to be found in the Knight's Forum, or the Council . . .

You are sort of putting words in my mouth here. I never said anything about fairness or egalitarianism. This place is run like its run and that’s fine. I’m just exploring options. I’m not suggesting taking anything off site either or that someone is hiding “special information”. What I’m saying is that there is a wealth of information in specific training areas in the form of opinion pieces on just the very thing that has been suggested is lacking here – discussions on the nature of the force. Reading a book is one thing, interpreting that book and then discussing it is another altogether. There are tons of discussions going on here but they are in tiny corners of the forum where access is very limited. I was just making suggestions and inviting comments on how to open that up somewhat to be more accessable.

I hear you Kyrin. We are mostly on the same page here. If I've understood you right, you'd like to see the interesting conversations that are going on behind closed doors. I joined this discussion because there aren't those kind of interesting discussions going on behind closed doors!

Do you want to paste your paragraph from an earlier post on this thread regarding the Dao, The Force, meaning etc into a new thread and then we can start that conversation? I'd be keen!

Sure!

So, does Knighthood or ranks motivate you to learn more? Cool, welcome aboard, grab that rank but learn and share on the way.

Does being part of administrating this site motivate you to learn more? Cool, welcome aboard, administrate but learn and share on the way.

Does wanting to help others motivate you to learn more? Cool, welcome aboard, help away but learn more and share on the way.

Does philosophical conversation motivate you to learn more? Cool, welcome aboard, lets talk, but learn and share on the way.

Does self-growth motivate you to learn more? Cool, welcome aboard, grow all you can, but learn and share on the way.

Does learning at all motivate you? Cool, welcome aboard, learn and share on the way.

Do you know how to be respectful to people? Cool, I'm not entirely sure myself but I try, welcome aboard, try not to be a jerk.

Discuss, learn, share, repeat. Reason of motivation not required, purpose: want an apprentice, get the rank. Otherwise, it seems more admin related than anything.

I have learned a lot from this conversation, thought I would try and share it. The force is in it.

Much Love, Respect and Peace,
Kobos

I have been here long enough to see Knighthood destroy some people.

In fact, haven't the majority of people who achieved Knighthood here... left? Quit? Peaced out?

Sure, some have really valid reasons that have nothing to do with training. I'm thinking Jestor is a prime example.

But, others have fallen off the map because Knighthood isn't what they thought it would be. They saw how the sausage was made... and they weren't prepared to see behind the curtain.

Even the strongest Jedi falter when they realize what it takes. Hell, I faltered. When I realized I would have to stomach hypocrisy, lies, and bureaucracy in order to be a Knight, I had to resign to keep my sanity.

Here's what being a Knight is really about: toeing the line, keeping up appearances, checking journals, voting on things, training more, herding apprentices, work, work, more work, administrative work, and some knights even keep the site running without any extra compensation.

You may think it's glorious, but it isn't. And, if you want to be a knight because of the promised prestige, I implore you to quit now. No mud; no lotus.

Oh, and if you're going to become a Knight, and then not give back to this community... Leave now. This is not a university where you get a degree and peace out. This is a temple where you live, learn, and then serve.

In fact, I wish Knighthood came with a signed promise to work here for three years before leaving. As the most basic repayment for the services the Knights provided you as a Novice and Apprentice.

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Anyway... next time you write one of those "Why do I want to be a Knight?" essays, put something in there about giving back to the site. That's when you deserve the responsibility.

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As for discussing the Force, I think we all need to become Force-centric. What if, before logging into this site every day, you pledged to wait 10 minutes to write a response to any forum post (within reason... not intro threads for example lol). Sit with the post. Be mindful. Let the Force help you write your composed response.

What if, if you are going to argue a point, you took the time to outline your response. This isn't a Discord chat room. This is a forum. The advantage is that... nobody's going anywhere. Take your time.

IDK. I just feel like the Forum would be a more pleasant experience for us all if we would lose the extra heat and allow our passions to be channeled through serenity and come out with something FULLY baked instead of an emotional rant.

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Sorry, if this went on... I had been thinking about this all day.

I for one have been fully motivated to learn all the esoteric secrets of the apprentices forum.

In all seriousness, I appreciate people who are willing to serve and stick around long term. I do like serious discussion, but get how open discussions can quickly devolve. Reading everyone's thoughts on this has been enlightening

Not sure how this started, or what was discussed in the last five pages, but a quick thought on titles -

When I got one of mine, someone said to me (more or less) "You've got this title because of what you have already done, everything you do from here is working towards your next one"

Being given the title Knight shouldn't mean "Okay, we've given you this title, now earn it with work"

You get the title for what is behind you, not what it is hoped you might achieve in the future. (This is the opposite of politics, where you give someone a title, then hope to hell they do the job)

If you want, create a new title, Knight Exemplar, I don't care, for the knights that do whatever x-y-z list of tasks you feel should come after an apprenticeship.