Psychometry

Omhu Cuspor wrote: Agreed! A rule of netiquette I constantly find helpful is to avoid, to the greatest extent possible, use of the pronoun "you". Once that happens, conversations almost always devolve.

Yup, my new online mantra. I've heard it said many different ways by many different people... but this one hits home. Well said.

JLSpinner wrote: To be honest, the importance is going to vary from person to person. You know that. If I had to guess, I'd look back to when I separated from Christianity. That faith had given me drive and purpose and I had used it as a crutch and support. When I lost that I fell into some dark times until I learned to be my own purpose. I would say that these beliefs are bound into their beliefs in a way that they depend on. We can't expect religious folks or believers in the esoteric to cut the basic foundations of their beliefs without a struggle. But why would we want to cut them? Some fantasies are dangerous, but most just serve to help someone cope with the harshness of reality. I think it would go a long way to put that into perspective.

Of course importance is subjective. I would put forward that dependence on belief or faith that cannot be mapped to reality is not a good foundation to base action on. It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence. We talk of the false belief in psychometry here but what about the false belief that black people are not fully human that Nazis believe? This goes from just ignorance to potentially quite damaging. Why would you tolerate one but not the other?

I would think any Jedi would want to eradicate these beliefs for this very reason alone if not for the reason to find the struggle for freedom in discovering our own self purpose outside the need for external validation. Allowing these beliefs to exist do not help people cope with the harshness of reality, they allow those individuals to ignore the truth of reality and pretend things are not as they actually are to justify their own prejudices. I work to remove those prejudices and the struggle is not only real it is worthy.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: To be honest, the importance is going to vary from person to person. You know that. If I had to guess, I'd look back to when I separated from Christianity. That faith had given me drive and purpose and I had used it as a crutch and support. When I lost that I fell into some dark times until I learned to be my own purpose. I would say that these beliefs are bound into their beliefs in a way that they depend on. We can't expect religious folks or believers in the esoteric to cut the basic foundations of their beliefs without a struggle. But why would we want to cut them? Some fantasies are dangerous, but most just serve to help someone cope with the harshness of reality. I think it would go a long way to put that into perspective.

Of course importance is subjective. I would put forward that dependence on belief or faith that cannot be mapped to reality is not a good foundation to base action on. It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence. We talk of the false belief in psychometry here but what about the false belief that black people are not fully human that Nazis believe? This goes from just ignorance to potentially quite damaging. Why would you tolerate one but not the other?

I would think any Jedi would want to eradicate these beliefs for this very reason alone if not for the reason to find the struggle for freedom in discovering our own self purpose outside the need for external validation. Allowing these beliefs to exist do not help people cope with the harshness of reality, they allow those individuals to ignore the truth of reality and pretend things are not as they actually are to justify their own prejudices. I work to remove those prejudices and the struggle is not only real it is worthy.

I'm just about right there with you on this, only it's my "faith" that has carried, and continues to carry me through the worst of times imaginable when everything else has failed. It continually reminds me I am not an island, regardless if i want it to be so or not. I'm just as much a skeptic as the next guy, only until im reminded that it's my faith that has kept me out of prison, out of the mental hospital, off pharmaceuticals, and so far out of the grave from suicide...

It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence.

you mean the Six Virtues? (in some dusty tomes referred to as the "Six Harsh Realities: )

Jedi creeds etc aside, can you prove this things all objectively bad?

Yes, for any argument to work we have to be able to accept some kind of premise, but I'm not sure why you (what? I never agreed that pseudo-spiritually ignoring the participants in a discussion that boils down to human experience was in any way useful) get to set what the premise is.

Might as well ask a handful of river stones or bleached raven skulls.....

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

JLSpinner wrote: To be honest, the importance is going to vary from person to person. You know that. If I had to guess, I'd look back to when I separated from Christianity. That faith had given me drive and purpose and I had used it as a crutch and support. When I lost that I fell into some dark times until I learned to be my own purpose. I would say that these beliefs are bound into their beliefs in a way that they depend on. We can't expect religious folks or believers in the esoteric to cut the basic foundations of their beliefs without a struggle. But why would we want to cut them? Some fantasies are dangerous, but most just serve to help someone cope with the harshness of reality. I think it would go a long way to put that into perspective.

Of course importance is subjective. I would put forward that dependence on belief or faith that cannot be mapped to reality is not a good foundation to base action on. It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence. We talk of the false belief in psychometry here but what about the false belief that black people are not fully human that Nazis believe? This goes from just ignorance to potentially quite damaging. Why would you tolerate one but not the other?

I would think any Jedi would want to eradicate these beliefs for this very reason alone if not for the reason to find the struggle for freedom in discovering our own self purpose outside the need for external validation. Allowing these beliefs to exist do not help people cope with the harshness of reality, they allow those individuals to ignore the truth of reality and pretend things are not as they actually are to justify their own prejudices. I work to remove those prejudices and the struggle is not only real it is worthy.

Well firstly, I do not have to explain the difference between someone believing someone is less human based on skin color and someone who believes they can sense feelings from objects, or why I would tolerate one and not the other. This is a poorly designed strawman. There is no relationship between believers of the esoteric and racism, debate the topic at hand instead of running off for the extremes and outliers. You quoted me stating that some fantasies are dangerous. Secondly please explain, with evidence, how a follower of pyschometry causes misogyny, bigotry, AND violence?

JamesSand wrote:

It causes fallacy, cognitive bias, projection, misogyny, bigotry and violence.

you mean the Six Virtues? (in some dusty tomes referred to as the "Six Harsh Realities: )

Jedi creeds etc aside, can you prove this things all objectively bad?

Things can be subjectively bad. That's not the same as not bad at all. All judgements are subjective. The reason Kyrin appeals to these possible consequences of false beliefs is because she understands that we collectively tend to agree that these are - subjectively granted, but nevertheless - bad consequences that we had better try and combat to a maximal extent at our avail within civility. She does not think that this is a contentious premise, or one worth substantiating, because people who think that harm and suffering are a good or tolerable thing are usually not people whose opinions we take into consideration when making moral judgements. It is neither necessary nor helpful to generate a framework of objective morals first just to be able to argue what we shall do about things subjective values of which we are in overwhelming agreement about already.

It is neither necessary nor helpful to generate a framework of objective morals first just to be able to argue what we shall do about things subjective values of which we are in overwhelming agreement about already.

Some would argue it's not particularly necessary or helpful to harange people with meeting a standard of argument or proof or "mapping to reality" to suit your own particular reality either, but here we are.

We've reached what is "obvious" to you by "overwhelming agreement". That mental place is different for everyone.

Zenchi wrote: I'm just about right there with you on this, only it's my "faith" that has carried, and continues to carry me through the worst of times imaginable when everything else has failed. It continually reminds me I am not an island, regardless if i want it to be so or not. I'm just as much a skeptic as the next guy, only until im reminded that it's my faith that has kept me out of prison, out of the mental hospital, off pharmaceuticals, and so far out of the grave from suicide...

That's powerful man. But just think how much more powerful your convictions and commitments would be if they were based on the actual realistic bedrock of truth proven by irrefutable fact Instead of some fluffy warm yet utterly vacuous concept you refuse to let go of because it makes you feel special?

JamesSand wrote: you mean the Six Virtues? (in some dusty tomes referred to as the "Six Harsh Realities: )

Jedi creeds etc aside, can you prove this things all objectively bad?

Yes, for any argument to work we have to be able to accept some kind of premise, but I'm not sure why you (what? I never agreed that pseudo-spiritually ignoring the participants in a discussion that boils down to human experience was in any way useful) get to set what the premise is.

Might as well ask a handful of river stones or bleached raven skulls.....

By all means, there is a premise that should be agreed upon. I was making a basic assumption that we can base that premise on well being of individuals. Such things as it's better to be alive than dead, joy is better than suffering, freedom better than slavery. Do you dissagree?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Zenchi wrote: I'm just about right there with you on this, only it's my "faith" that has carried, and continues to carry me through the worst of times imaginable when everything else has failed. It continually reminds me I am not an island, regardless if i want it to be so or not. I'm just as much a skeptic as the next guy, only until im reminded that it's my faith that has kept me out of prison, out of the mental hospital, off pharmaceuticals, and so far out of the grave from suicide...

That's powerful man. But just think how much more powerful your convictions and commitments would be if they were based on the actual realistic bedrock of truth proven by irrefutable fact Instead of some fluffy warm yet utterly vacuous concept you refuse to let go of because it makes you feel special?

It doesn't, but nice try, next....