Psychometry

Uzima Moto wrote: Well, thankfully in this instance scientists describe parallel universes almost exactly how one would describe the astral plane.

I ask again, are you thinking of specific "certain scientists", or just some abstract ones? Are you thinking of a particular published paper here, or of a popular science blog? Where are these descriptions of things so similar to what you say?

Look, I can tell when someone fundamentally misunderstands esoteric matters. They are usually the ones most vocal against it.

So it's not so much that I said anything incoherent, it's just that I made no indication of believing in it. Basically, exactly the excuse I predicted as the first response to incredulity. If I don't believe it, it must be that I just haven't had the experience. Well, I haven't had the experience with most real things either. It's almost like the quality of the argument and the existence of evidence might make a difference.

The funny part is when they start describing in "scientific terms" mysteries the mystic tradition has already encountered.. like parallel universes.. but then claim the esoteric realities they just described don't exist..

Yea, but you are again battling against a straw man here. Nobody was either describing or attempting to describe your astral plane in scientific terms... Nobody but you yourself, that is, and I cautioned you against it, and I'll take this opportunity to again ask who or what description you were talking about when saying that "certain scientists" theorized it. The rest of us made no attempt at describing it scientifically, just as the rest of us never asserted it didn't exist. Why you keep repeating this accusation for a third time is a mystery to me.

Gisteron wrote: I ask again, are you thinking of specific "certain scientists", or just some abstract ones? Are you thinking of a particular published paper here, or of a popular science blog? Where are these descriptions of things so similar to what you say?

Well, Google is a somewhat wonderful tool lol because every talk, discussion, debate, documentary, and article I've seen describes a lot of what the mystic tradition describes.

Dimensions in dimensions, the further "in" you go the more possible dimensions. In the 3rd you get familiar matter. At the 4th, electromagnetism. 5th or 6th and beyond begins the quantum trail into the ethereal.

Entirely different laws of physics that exist at these higher dimensions. The energy of matter moving in ways we can barely imagine at these levels. Almost like shapes falling in on themselves.

Whole other universes either existing outside our own or within everything we see. Both having characteristics wildly different or almost exact copies of our own universe. "Astral Theory" actually coherently combines these theories in an onion. Each layer being both a higher dimension and its own universe. The further "in" the "higher" the universe..

Also, but arguably most important, is that these "higher dimensions" govern the laws of our own 3/4d world at the quantum level. One could logically conclude that each dimension would be governed by the on higher than itself. Fourth by fifth, fifth by sixth, so on and so forth.. this is also a core principle in "Astral Theory"..

So it's not so much that I said anything incoherent, it's just that I made no indication of believing in it. Basically, exactly the excuse I predicted as the first response to incredulity. If I don't believe it, it must be that I just haven't had the experience. Well, I haven't had the experience with most real things either. It's almost like the quality of the argument and the existence of evidence might make a difference.

Who said you didn't have the experience? I said there was a fundamental misunderstanding. If you think what I said applies directly to you then that shoe probably fits. Which there seems to be evidence for that at least..

Yea, but you are again battling against a straw man here. Nobody was either describing or attempting to describe your astral plane in scientific terms... Nobody but you yourself, that is, and I cautioned you against it, and I'll take this opportunity to again ask who or what description you were talking about when saying that "certain scientists" theorized it. The rest of us made no attempt at describing it scientifically, just as the rest of us never asserted it didn't exist. Why you keep repeating this accusation for a third time is a mystery to me.

Please refer back to the top of this comment to see what I mean by "scientists", as obviously meaning not the people on this thread. Unless they actually are the scientists out there talking about this lol your cautions were kinda misdirected to say the least lol.. Not only that but some opposed to "woo", as you put it, are also dismissive of OUR Astral Plane with such words. To some, it's non-existent until it's observed to have existence.. and you sound like you're really close to that camp.. but I'd hate to put you in a box..

It's something I never understood where if people are accepting alternate universes and realities, why are people communing with other dimensions suddenly impossible, never did exist and never will exist? I also think people who have near death experiences probably know what I am talking about, too.

Because something is not in front of your face, it doesn't mean it isn't there or can't be experienced. Germs didn't all of a sudden exist when we discovered them. They already existed. And you need different ways to see them

I think partly is because people use such powers, the ones who disbelieve are basically saying "Oh you use magic? Exactly like the ones in Harry Potter" When they never said it or implied it because magic in movies does NOT work like that here. And anyone who does practice it knows what I am talking about

Or they get used to seeing so many fake magicians and psychics, they assume anyone who claims such powers must be fake or are deep down frightened of such power because if you found out such power exists, you'd want to get a way from it at first because you don't understand it, it shakes up your reality and you do not know how to defend yourself from it.

Uzima Moto wrote:

Gisteron wrote: I ask again, are you thinking of specific "certain scientists", or just some abstract ones? Are you thinking of a particular published paper here, or of a popular science blog? Where are these descriptions of things so similar to what you say?

Well, Google is a somewhat wonderful tool lol because every talk, discussion, debate, documentary, and article I've seen describes a lot of what the mystic tradition describes.

Just as I do not post sources for everything I say, I cannot demand that you do. However, without a specific reference, I'm afraid I have no means of addressing your claim that certain scientists assert what you say on scientific grounds.

Dimensions in dimensions, the further "in" you go the more possible dimensions. In the 3rd you get familiar matter. At the 4th, electromagnetism. 5th or 6th and beyond begins the quantum trail into the ethereal.

I'm afraid I am not familiar with your usage of "dimension". You seem to be speaking of dimensions as some sort of nesting layers, where each consecutive one is something like a superset of the prior. You don't seem to be meaning any directions of measurement as one'd know dimensions from physics, nor as the individually labeled fields making up a vector space as one would know dimensions from mathematics. Clearly, you must be meaning something else entirely. Now while I have little indication that you mean by "electromagnetism" the same someone scientifically literate would, I also have, for now, nothing to point to that would show that you aren't. However, what "quantum" means in the context you used it is also not entirely clear if I go by what the term would usually mean, i.e. some tiny, discrete unit of a quantity.

Entirely different laws of physics that exist at these higher dimensions. The energy of matter moving in ways we can barely imagine at these levels. Almost like shapes falling in on themselves.

That first one doesn't sentence. As for the rest, I'm not sure I quite understand what you are saying. Do you?

Whole other universes either existing outside our own or within everything we see. Both having characteristics wildly different or almost exact copies of our own universe. "Astral Theory" actually coherently combines these theories in an onion. Each layer being both a higher dimension and its own universe. The further "in" the "higher" the universe..

Also, but arguably most important, is that these "higher dimensions" govern the laws of our own 3/4d world at the quantum level. One could logically conclude that each dimension would be governed by the on higher than itself. Fourth by fifth, fifth by sixth, so on and so forth.. this is also a core principle in "Astral Theory"..

Well, what observations does "Astral Theory" predict then, that we can actually test? What are the margins of error and thus failure conditions?

Yea, but you are again battling against a straw man here. Nobody was either describing or attempting to describe your astral plane in scientific terms... Nobody but you yourself, that is, and I cautioned you against it, and I'll take this opportunity to again ask who or what description you were talking about when saying that "certain scientists" theorized it. The rest of us made no attempt at describing it scientifically, just as the rest of us never asserted it didn't exist. Why you keep repeating this accusation for a third time is a mystery to me.

Please refer back to the top of this comment to see what I mean by "scientists", as obviously meaning not the people on this thread. Unless they actually are the scientists out there talking about this lol your cautions were kinda misdirected to say the least lol.. Not only that but some opposed to "woo", as you put it, are also dismissive of OUR Astral Plane with such words. To some, it's non-existent until it's observed to have existence.. and you sound like you're really close to that camp.. but I'd hate to put you in a box..

I'm afraid you made no description of what you mean by "scientists" at the top of your comment. Earlier you said that there were certain ones that described things similar to what you believed. It never got any more specific than that. You referred to mainstream ones, too, which is sort of vague, because while there are mainstream and fringe opinions in science, there is really only one scientific method, and it doesn't technically distinguish between fringe and mainstream claims.
So anyway, since nobody here actually asserted that your astral plane doesn't exist, clearly by referring to people who did, you wouldn't mean anyone here, but someone still frustrating enough to mention it in this discussion multiple times. If you don't mind my curiosity, who specifically were you talking about?
I'm glad you wouldn't want to put me in a box with the sort of people to whom things are non-existent until otherwise observed. While I don't spend many of my nights worrying about jealous gods or vengeful spirits just because never having observed any I cannot be certain of their non-existence in some technical sense philosophers understand more about than I am even trying to, nevertheless I abstain from making assertions of this sort. I do not believe in "OUR Astral Plane" any more than I believe in them, because, for now, I have no more reason to, and I wouldn't live my life attempting to ever acknowledge its existence or expecting and preparing for my finding out about it. Yet, I would never insist that it doesn't exist in some deeper-than-pragmatic sense unless and until I have any reason to back up that assertion, and I would challenge anyone who does make that assertion with confidence just as much as I challenge yours.
As for my caution, I said it, because I have been on both sides of the sort of discourse where someone was asserting that there is a scientific argument for their view, only to be completely embarassed soon after by someone who actually knew anything about the topic. I, for one, didn't mind being on either side of that edge, but I understand some might not enjoy it so much, hence the caution. So if you don't want to continue talking about quantum phenomena or dimensions, we really don't have to. I find that matters of science should always be up for discussion and debate among those interested in them or in utilizing them to support their beliefs, but I leave it to you to decide whether you are. And if indeed you are, then by all means, be my guest, open a thread and we can see what we can learn about them from each other.

If you went back in time a thousand years ago and explained all the stuff that would happen in the future, they too would think you were nuts that we could fly, go into space, Unable to accept there are tiny life forms that you can't see without your eyes, being able to show music in a tiny computer or box as they would call it ect. And now look what happened.

We always tend to think something's impossible and someone ends up proving them wrong a lot of the time

But proof in this cannot be shown, only experienced. You won't know that certain techniques or spells will increase health fortitude ect. until you actually try it.

You know even the ones in the far east talk about their Chi or Ki which isn't a "science" per se, but they still talk about it. Why is that?

What I find strange is even in mythology they cannot accept that maybe there were other beings besides us. All of those creatures and not one of them existed? Yet we have dinosaurs. We have that proof. But we have become so close minded into thinking something never exists until it is discovered. Would it make sense to say germs never existed until we discovered it? No.

Besides with all of these legends, people need to realize there is almost always some truth to legends. Otherwise, they wouldn't be "legends" to begin with.

Yabuturtle wrote: We always tend to think something's impossible and someone ends up proving them wrong a lot of the time
...
... we have become so close minded into thinking something never exists until it is discovered.

Speak for yourself.

It's strange as the ones that have doubted still do not offer a valid reason as to why so many mathematicians, scientists of our time practiced the mystical and magical. They revere them but reject the things they too were heavily interested in. If they were really beyond such superstition, what would they gain by studying this?

Yabuturtle wrote: It's strange as the ones that have doubted still do not offer a valid reason as to why so many mathematicians, scientists of our time practiced the mystical and magical.

If "of our time" means sometime three centuries or more ago, since you never named any actually modern ones, then I did. You spoke of those so often, I'm kinda biased to assume you mean them, so you're just plain lying now, because at least I have actually given multiple possible reasons multiple times over, and you even quoted me do it.

They revere them...

Hmm, honour, at best. And even then, it's more their lasting contributions to the advancement of their respective fields, not the persons themselves or their individual quirks. In many cases, we hardly even bother knowing their names, really, though thankfully there is still somewhat of a record.

... but reject the things they too were heavily interested in.

No, sorry, we still don't. We select.

If they were really beyond such superstition, ...

They weren't. Noone said they were. If we revered them, someone might have said it. But we don't, so we didn't.

... what would they gain by studying this?

I've answered this question several times in this thread and several more times in several older ones. I'm sure others have, too. You even quoted me do it, though you never addressed it and just reiterate the question, as though it were still such a mystery.

Yabuturtle wrote: Germs didn't all of a sudden exist when we discovered them. They already existed. And you need different ways to see them

Hello,

Sorry, dont mean to interrupt so hope its ok. I just found this comment interesting since I was just having a similar convo on another board.

So in your example about germs, correspondance does not equal causality. Before we knew about germs people would get sick and doctors thought evil spirits caused it and they noticed that if you put leaches on them some of them got better. So they concluded the sick had to much blood and that was why they were sick. This was wrong of course. They saw a cause and effect where none existed. It was not until actual research and testing proved the cause was actually germs that blood letting went away.

So in this discussion it's important not to make that same mistake. Until a true proven cause is found for the phenomena it's best to not jump to causations without tested evidence of that cause. So a person claiming this power that makes a prediction and that prediction comes true is not evidence alone of the power because it cant be reliably reproduced. Over time these predictions average a success rate no greater than simple chance. Correlation does not equal causation here so the real reason for the success must be concluded to be nothing more than a good guess, not paranormal power.

If this power does exist a real cause for it must be determined (just like the germs) and then it must be proven reliably with repeatable testing that never fails. This is the scientific method.

Gisteron Wrote: I'm not sure I quite understand what you are saying. Do you?

Well, you understand more than you lead on. As do I, but this has been sort of a refresher course on these subjects. I haven't looked too much into science since high school. Law and Spirituality took priority. The latter mainly, mostly due to my experiences..

We're talking forces here, don't lose the irony either. The forces that hold, push, pull, and charge particles. THEY.. are 5th dimensional. Space-time is 4D. Electromagnetic force is included with the 5th in relation to how it functions. If you were to try to mathematically visualize it as lines points and planes, say, like a cube. Points would move contrary to 4D space time. As if folding in on itself.. in reality, it's unobservable

Don't be coy, you know I'm using layers as symbolism. Anybody whose had any REAL knowledge of the astral knows they're not layered. It's well known that a soul goes steady "inward" as he goes further beyond death. You're just tuning into higher vibrations. Not crossing a line.. Universes within universes. I'll say again. When they're talking about these forces operating at a level so small that they're like unseen universes to anything that small.. but it isn't small, just subtle.. and everywhere. Just like matter and energy is everywhere..

The point being that there are forces in our world that operate beyond what we perceive as our local 4D reality. So much so that they could be from a different dimension entirely..

So, you may not feel the need to bridge the gap between science and spirituality doesn't mean it won't happen. This dimensional knowledge came in the same way. Trying to bridge theories..