Is the term “toxic masculinity” useful?

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5 years 10 months ago #321978 by

DeboraJ wrote: There is no Toxic Femininity possible in a patriarchal system. Simple logic there.

I don't do argumentative behavior masquerading as meaningful debate. If you don't like me for saying so, you're free to unfriend me. I for one understand the nature of toxic masculinity in the quickly eroding patriarchy because I took many classes in gender studies.

It is not a tool of manipulation, it is not a condemnation of masculinity or the male gender and it is not about women hating the nature of men. It's about a social structure that won't allow men to be men but instead insists that they cannot control ANY of their base animal instincts and how that concept is hurting men as well as women. Period.

Anyone who wants to debate that as if it is a bad thing meant to divide the senses hasn't read a single thing about the term and is only arguing their own ego and own made-up definition for the term.

So I'm out of this conversation because people aren't arguing the actual reality of toxic masculinity as it is defined but rather arguing their opinion of what they think the term means and then applying that incorrect meaning to debate.

There is no debate possible if people won't stick to an official definition of the issue/term being debated...basic philosophy rules 101 and since nobody here seems to want to actually discuss and debate but instead to argue their butt-hurt over the term they don't seem to want to understand, well, I'm out.

I will not be responding to this conversation any further because I don't like feeling baited into an empty useless baseless argument. Good day. :)

And before you all jump down that rabbit hole of argumentative ego, although I know it's so delicious...it is not Jedi behavior as I have come to understand it from the teachings in the IP. I don't believe opinionated speculation is the way of the Jedi; I believe consideration of the facts is.

So here are the facts on Toxic Masculinity for the true Jedi in the room who seek to learn and heal as opposed to those who wich to argue and further divide..because TM is not divisory unless it's in the hands of someone looking to misuse it. It IS the beginning of a Men's Movement.

"Toxic masculinity is one of the ways in which Patriarchy is harmful to men. It refers to the socially-constructed attitudes that describe the masculine gender role as violent, unemotional, sexually aggressive, and so forth."

Examples

- The pervasive idea of male-female interactions as competition, not cooperation.
- The pervasive idea that men cannot truly understand women, and vice versa--and following, that no true companionship can be had between different sexes.
- The expectation that Real Men are strong, and that showing emotion is incompatible with being strong. Anger is either framed as the exception to the rule, or as not an emotion.
- Relatedly, the idea that a Real Man cannot be a victim of abuse, or that talking about it is shameful.
- Men are just like that: the expectation that Real Men are keenly interested in sex, want to have sex, and are ready to have sex most if not all times
- The idea that Real Men should be prepared to be violent, even when it is not called for.
- The common expectation that a man would abandon his pregnant girlfriend, being incapable and/or unwilling to take responsibility, feeling little to no attachment to an unborn child, and expecting pregnancy and motherhood to not only change but ruin the girlfriend and the relationship.
- The myth that men are not interested in parenting, and are inherently unsuited to be single parents
- Emasculation: the idea that there is a range of feminine interests and activities a Real Man would not hold, and that disprove a man's masculinity regardless of his other actions:
- The concept that Real Men arent interested in one's personal looks, cosmetics, dressing up, fashion
- That men are not naturally emotional, expressing emotion, crying
- The falsehood that appreciating "frivolous" things such as sugary alcoholic drinks, romantic styles, cute animal videos, romcom flicks
understanding women, being sympathetic aren't traits of Real Men
- That real men don't behave silly or giddy or can need help and support, and so on.
geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Toxic_masculinity

Anyone who wants to claim that standing up for our men against the patriarchy is somehow "divisory" or "manipulative" ISN'T debating Toxic Masculinity, they are only debating their own misinformation and arguing ego as loud as they can just to hear themselves sing. Period.

I'm out and going back to my studies, as we obviously all should when considering the failure of this discussion to blossom appropriately today.



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5 years 10 months ago #321981 by Zenchi

Anyone who wants to claim that standing up for our men against the patriarchy is somehow "divisory" or "manipulative" ISN'T debating Toxic Masculinity, they are only debating their own misinformation and arguing ego as loud as they can just to hear themselves sing. Period.

I'm out and going back to my studies, as we obviously all should when considering the failure of this discussion to blossom appropriately today.


I don't see this discussion "failing" I see intelligent people taking part in something they feel passionately about. FYI, getting angry and stomping off isn't debating intelligently either I might add.

Perhaps Instead of leaving you ask others hypothetical questions that may assist them in seeing this differently? I'm not picking on you, it's just that so many are resorting to anger as a last ditch effort to prove a point, and it doesn't help...

Just my two cents...

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
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5 years 10 months ago #321982 by Adder

Zenchi wrote: And why not "toxic femininity"? Is that even a word?.


Sure it can be, but it's probably not discussed as much because its not as widespread a problem with as serious as impacts. It's always a good idea to deal with the bigger problems first, and I certainly wouldn't give any time to ignoring the bigger problem just because the smaller ones cannot be dealth with at the sime time!!! They can be done later, and probably might resolve themselves with the lessons learnt from the more urgent bigger problems.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #321985 by Zenchi

Adder wrote:

Zenchi wrote: And why not "toxic femininity"? Is that even a word?.


Sure it can be, but it's probably not discussed as much because its not as widespread a problem with as serious as impacts. It's always a good idea to deal with the bigger problems first, and I certainly wouldn't give any time to ignoring the bigger problem just because the smaller ones cannot be dealth with at the sime time!!! They can be done later, and probably might resolve themselves with the lessons learnt from the more urgent bigger problems.


Believe you're missing my point, and the question asked regarding toxic feminity wasn't to written to specifically point focus at it, but to make the point that it's toxic behavior in general, that is the problem. We're all a little too quick to point it at the male species because it's perhaps more obvious, but it's being used for political reasons all the same. How do you stop it from being used to extremes? Point the finger at the behavior and come up with methods to deter/stop it all together...

It needs to be carefully be defined, and toxic behavior should not be assigned sides, because then it can and WILL be abused for personal agendas. So instead, let's define it, then move on to step two, instead of immediately using it to point fingers at a large group of people, which is ridiculous imo...

Now i get this wasn't directly pointed at the men in general, but rather multiple problems, one regarding the patriarchal paradigm we're still stuck in. Then let's call it something else, and not a over generalized term such as toxic masculinity, because that term in in of itself is pointed at a rather large group of people, and as I've already said multiple times, can and will be abused for personal agendas...

It's the Joe Rogan show, so yeah, there's some strong language...
https://youtu.be/VT27Ot9S8lU

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Zenchi.

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5 years 10 months ago #321987 by Adder
I agree with you in a way. And I think its the best approach to deal with it in theory, because it doesn't marginalize the offending group so much if it can be described as toxic in a larger group, and it can also be applied to other groups based on the behaviour (if relevant) - which is what it is about, the behaviour not the group...... but, when the major offending group doesn't realize they are doing it then the association of the problem with the group becomes important to actualizing results in the main offending group.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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5 years 10 months ago #321988 by
What We Mean When We Say, “Toxic Masculinity”

https://www.tolerance.org/magazine/what-we-mean-when-we-say-toxic-masculinity

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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #321991 by Zenchi

Adder wrote: I agree with you in a way. And I think its the best approach to deal with it in theory, because it doesn't marginalize the offending group so much if it can be described as toxic in a larger group, and it can also be applied to other groups based on the behaviour (if relevant) - which is what it is about, the behaviour not the group...... but, when the major offending group doesn't realize they are doing it then the association of the problem with the group becomes important to actualizing results in the main offending group.


Right, my problem is the far left has a knack for using this and other similar points towards attempts at controlling not only behavior, but language as well. This is the reason alot of people are reluctant to even talk on this, it's not as much to do with people not understanding what the term means, but more to do with how people in the middle are just flat out sick of it...

I'm not saying this doesn't have merit, or that said behavior isn't exhibited more in males than female, but it's being used now to push agendas on both sides politically, and each year it's getting worse and worse. This is why Trump is in the white house, because one side insisted on pushing issues so far off the cliff, the older generations fought back equally hard in resistance...

So is the term useful, sure, but it is also being used and exploited to controll others, and will continue to be. For every action, there will be a equal and opposite reaction. So how do we use this without it it being exploited, because it will...

There's no answers to this question imo, save to change the terminology all together. I am not sure that'll work, but I see where this is headed, and I'm not liking it in the least...

My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Zenchi.
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5 years 10 months ago - 5 years 10 months ago #321993 by Carlos.Martinez3
These definitions - I understand when others give a definition of things - that is “their” definition of things. As my practice goes and as it evolves it has shown me that being in contradiction is a choice I make. Think about that one Jedi . My definition is what I have formulated and thought about never what I’ve been spoon fed or just - repeated. Did you know some people give definitions of things that just come from a dictionary ? Never wrong - never ...just be aware some people have first hand definitions - sone won’t. That’s where to will find what some think as a “variation.” The key belief shared by some Jedi is the inherit worth of all. Though some say they do others try to pracrice this. I myself, know what was toxic to me - masculine - sexual - character wise but —— I was looking for it. For myself. It seems when these type of things come to hand - there are those who want to identify things for others. ( well why can’t to see it like I do?)! The fact of the matter is - some times we can only define what we know or have been through .
So - I say this not to cause drama or harm but to simply bring this small light to the already round table. Can we as Jedi remember this ! Not only here, but in everything we chat about ? Hmmm - I know I try .
Masculinity as I was taught was horrible . We’re therr some things I will be passing to the next generation ? Very few but there will be some. All in all - it’s to each heart to figure out regardless of label - whatbis toxic to them- them selfs. Me- can’t stamd the word sissy ... but some - can use it difrently to create difrent outcome. Not my cup of tea. I leave that to who ever makes those choices. I can only shine the light I have and hope some one who needs it can use it - and know that some one might not. Maturity thing and all...

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Last edit: 5 years 10 months ago by Carlos.Martinez3.

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5 years 10 months ago #321994 by Carlos.Martinez3
Ps I am really loving this discussion . I love to see what others think and act - how they define . Go figure ! Please don’t stop sharing ?

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5 years 10 months ago #321998 by Carlos.Martinez3
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/121285-how-do-we-combat-toxic-character#321997

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