Official Notice of Resignation

I was originally not going to post in this topic at all except maybe to say "take care" until Senan posted his Security Officer topic which i took as being a reacrion to this post and a declaration of his intent to "tighten the fist" so to speak lol. I already said what occured to me to say but to not respond here after your last post would feel like i came in and threw stones at somwone who wasnt looking and then when he turned around i went off into hiding.

But i dont know how much there is to say, either, lol.

In my view, you signed up with a community that you really didnt approve of and now youre tired of the fact that its still not living up to your expectations.

I created my account in the beginning of 2015 or perhaps the end of 2014 and in my experience theres always been a curmudgeon or two around, theres always been some who want to engage in bickering and others who maybe dont WANT to but end up doing it anyway, theres always been a litany of complaints by people who cant see past their own noses. Thats what happens when you let people be who they are.

Theres always been a tug of war between people who want to make this a "safe space" where no one has to endure any experience that might make them feel uncomfortable, and those who want the environment to allow enough freedom so that people can speak their real opinions, and explore ideas candidly. Theres an inherent struggle between "safety" and "authenticity" in any community, and in a community dedicated to personal development and pychological growth, in my opinion it is authenticity which is more important, by far. Ive always seen you as holding the opposite position: safety first!

I think you wanted to change things from the inside (i seem to recall you e saying as much) but once you got inside you saw that its damn hard to actually do that, and now youre leaving. Ok, its well within your rights to do that and youre definitely not the first. I wish you all the best. Thank you for the service you offered while you were here and thank you for sharing your time and input with us when you did. Im not sayin these things sarcastically or backhandedly.

There isnt really a lot else to say except i would like to reply t this:

Tellahane wrote: I have no more fear in how or what I say, other then to be honest about my personal views and intent, without having to worry about backlash or representation of council.

Which is what ive always said all of us should do, anyway. Be honest about our personal views and intent. Give honest feedback to each other and express our own frames of reference honestly. And that means people have to be allowed to say things that others may not like, because individuals frames of references are often incompatible and contentious.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I was originally not going to post in this topic at all except maybe to say "take care" until Senan posted his Security Officer topic which i took as being a reacrion to this post and a declaration of his intent to "tighten the fist" so to speak lol. I already said what occured to me to say but to not respond here after your last post would feel like i came in and threw stones at somwone who wasnt looking and then when he turned around i went off into hiding.

But i dont know how much there is to say, either, lol.

In my view, you signed up with a community that you really didnt approve of and now youre tired of the fact that its still not living up to your expectations.

I see that like kyrin you both seem to have the impression that its not living up to my expectations, and I can see where you get that perspective, but its not entirely true. Coming into the community I approved of it plenty, I was excited for it, but the portion of the community I most agreed with was those who we're already knights and up at the time, and a handful of members as well. There are still quite a few I still think highly of, but its not about being fed up that it didn't meet my "unrealistic expectations" its there has been an overall vocal shift of direction, and its not the same direction for which I was trained and taught.

Its kind of like a train coming down the tracks to a switch yard. It's fully loaded with passengers and cargo sits not going to stop on a dime by any stretch of the means. There is many different tracks they can switch to. One of them was the TOTJO and what I was trained and taught to be knightly and to be Jedi, and there are many other tracks that go who knows where, so when I saw a train coming with the TOTJO logo on the front I was like hey over here, but everyone on board seemed to be shouting no we wanna go this other way. I can only point the sign in one way for so long I'm sure as hell not dumb enough to stand in front of the train so if they wanna go wander off a different direction then I'll step out of the way. Which is what I did here, I didn't "run" away, its more of simply recognizing that the direction membership wants to go is not the same way, so I stepped out of the way. I don't have to agree with it, and I think its obvious I don't, but I did a far better thing then trying to get ran over. Most of the people that I've talked with in the last year that has similar views or the ones that surprisingly didn't message me until after this post that I thought were long gone, are still here but just silent. They have chosen not to be on the forums because its too hostile. Not everyone learns through "conflict". There has been more people pushed away or into a form of solitude for their training then there has been brought out into the open and because of that we(the temple) miss out on a lot of beautiful writing and thoughts and discussions and perspectives.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I created my account in the beginning of 2015 or perhaps the end of 2014 and in my experience theres always been a curmudgeon or two around, theres always been some who want to engage in bickering and others who maybe dont WANT to but end up doing it anyway, theres always been a litany of complaints by people who cant see past their own noses. Thats what happens when you let people be who they are.

VERY TRUE

OB1Shinobi wrote: Theres always been a tug of war between people who want to make this a "safe space" where no one has to endure any experience that might make them feel uncomfortable, and those who want the environment to allow enough freedom so that people can speak their real opinions, and explore ideas candidly. Theres an inherent struggle between "safety" and "authenticity" in any community, and in a community dedicated to personal development and pychological growth, in my opinion it is authenticity which is more important, by far. Ive always seen you as holding the opposite position: safety first!

I find your view on this extremely interesting because I've been debating the opposite and pushing for authenticity like crazy more then anything in the behind the scenes, that was the full extent of my drive ever since I got even suggested for council.

I will honestly put some thought into that in hindsight, thank you for that comment.

OB1Shinobi wrote: I think you wanted to change things from the inside (i seem to recall you e saying as much) but once you got inside you saw that its damn hard to actually do that, and now youre leaving. Ok, its well within your rights to do that and youre definitely not the first. I wish you all the best. Thank you for the service you offered while you were here and thank you for sharing your time and input with us when you did. Im not sayin these things sarcastically or backhandedly.

It's not so much that it was damn hard it was at some point i need to respect the direction of the majority, the views changed since the way I was trained, or at least the perceptions that I had when I came here vs what is now, either it happened while I was being trained or its always been this way and my view was so limited coming up(hint for some people) that I didn't realize it but It's silly for one person to demand change just simply because that's how they want it to be right?(also a hint to some people).

OB1Shinobi wrote: There isnt really a lot else to say except i would like to reply t this:

Tellahane wrote: I have no more fear in how or what I say, other then to be honest about my personal views and intent, without having to worry about backlash or representation of council.

Which is what ive always said all of us should do, anyway. Be honest about our personal views and intent. Give honest feedback to each other and express our own frames of reference honestly. And that means people have to be allowed to say things that others may not like, because individuals frames of references are often incompatible and contentious.

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I agree, I think the problem with the council is they get soo much backlash and can handle only so much of it because they want to be trustworthy, they go out of their way to try and be as honest as they can to serve as best as they can because thats what they want to do for the temple, but sometimes taking a strong hand is necessary and they are doing their best to avoid the backlash at the same time, it becomes a constant struggle. If you be too honest people will start claiming corruption and everything else, and when newer member comes in and thats all they see they just get driven away, which is not what anyone wants.

Thanks for your post OB1.

Some people cannot truly live out their lives as Jedi, until they've left the community entirely. I'd venture to say that in fact, the majority would be better off doing so if they just came in to learn the philosophy, how to integrate it into their lives, and then just left to live out their hero's journey.

There are some that should stay to ensure that the generations are taught too. But like College or High School, you only need so many instructors per institution.

Good luck, Tellahane, and May the Force be with You.

You know , this is the fourth time i have heard this this week , and i think the Force is trying to tell me something , thank you Ally

Some people cannot truly live out their lives as Jedi, until they've left the community entirely. I'd venture to say that in fact, the majority would be better off doing so if they just came in to learn the philosophy, how to integrate it into their lives, and then just left to live out their hero's journey.

Tellahane wrote: there has been an overall vocal shift of direction, and its not the same direction for which I was trained and taught.

What is this change in direction you have perceived? You and I pretty much joined here about the same time if I'm remembering correctly. I have not seen this shift you are speaking of? What do you feel you were "trained" for and how has that shifted? As for my perception, I don't feel I'm being trained "for" any particular thing beyond my own choosing. I wonder why you feel you were? You seem to have this idea that you were not in control of your own path?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Tellahane wrote: there has been an overall vocal shift of direction, and its not the same direction for which I was trained and taught.

What is this change in direction you have perceived? You and I pretty much joined here about the same time if I'm remembering correctly. I have not seen this shift you are speaking of? What do you feel you were "trained" for and how has that shifted? As for my perception, I don't feel I'm being trained "for" any particular thing beyond my own choosing. I wonder why you feel you were? You seem to have this idea that you were not in control of your own path?

There was a Jedi who used to be here at the temple before he left that I still carry a significant amount of respect for, and as of especially now have even more insight into his reasons for leaving and his path and his beliefs. He said to me once that the path isn't about the scholastic marks, the points, the journal writing, its more about a path of epiphanies and eureka's. Everything else you do here is are nothing more then ways to help guide you into having them. When I was a member here I participated in the 90 day meditation team thing that went on, where we worked together in groups to do 90 days of meditation to help gain discipline but also get better at meditation and so on. I did fairly well in it, I think I had to go 6 or 7 days over because I missed a few days in there. I remember doing the meditations, I remember getting "better" at them. Writing a personal journal about them and so on. I thought I had become quite the adept meditator, I firmly believed in it, I sold myself on it so strongly no one could tell me otherwise.

I was a pretty happy member here, had no intention of doing the IP at the time thought I was knowledgeable enough about Jediism I had my own youtube channel, was doing my own videos talking about it, spent months of researching jediism before I even came to the temple etc. I had talked about meditation tried to teach it to others etc, I knew myself perfectly there was no room for error I've been studying for a long time blah blah blah. I looked down upon others who thought that I didn't know anything yet hell I'd been around 30 some years on this planet when I Started this path I'm not some teenager right? One day I was out mowing my yard on a very hot day it was upper 90's I think almost 100 degrees out and it wasn't an arizona dry heat it was humid illinois crap weather. I was exhausted about 80% through. So I put my hand against a tree and leaned at it for a few as a break, and for whatever reason chose to do the same breathing exercises that I was taught scholastically to do. I was so mentally exhausted at the same time that for the true first time in my life. Actually had a true meditation, actually cleared my head, actually heard the world around me, smelled, it, touched it, saw it. I could feel an extension of myself in that tree as I felt it bend in the wind. I honestly cried that day when I felt it. Mostly just from the sensations and the realizations but also a realization that everything I thought i knew and believed in and was so strong footed and yet was completely wrong. That the people here at the temple really have learned more then I do and knew more about myself then I so firmly believed in.

I had two epiphanies that day, one that everything I knew about meditation wasn't "wrong" but I was "wrong" in what I was believed it was, the other was that the Jedi path is not about 100 points, or scholastic essay answers achieving the bare minimum, it's about being guided to many more of those epiphanies and eureka's and opening my mind to a perception I didn't think was even possible. Yeah I had a 300 point system but like whose line is it anyway the points don't matter, gaining the mind/view/body altering perceptions does. I started the IP within a week of that day.

When I viewed the temple here as a member it was broken up into several different groups of people. There we're those here for jediism, and from other communities to discuss the ideas and thoughts and things about it. This was your guests, and your membership. Then there we're those here to learn the TOTJO way of Jediism. Which was your IP, into apprenticeship, and then to knighthood. Which to me at the time knighthood was your recognition that you had achieved the necessary scholastic marks but most importantly had made all the or significant enough of changes in your personal life, your personality, your way of living to be recognized in the TOTJO way of Jediism. The doctrine being a big part of that. When I had the opportunity to look at archives, training programs done by masters not really around any more, ones done by knights not around any more, and I look at some of the apprenticeship journals and IP's coming up there is a shift. It's my perception things did used to be more strict, there used to be more emphasis on doctrine and following it.

Yes there are many way's to be Jedi, but the temple did have its own way at one point, with some room for growth and evolution. Especially for those who believed in it as a spiritual aspect vs living it as a general guide lines to be a good person and had not spiritual connection at all, and for some both of those put together. Then throw in christian jedi and other syncretic combinations but it wasn't important how you got to the virtues of being a knight, what was important was getting there. I don't care how you learned about how to be respectful of others, what matters is that you are.

"Well I don't agree with this one part of the doctrine" "Well thats ok just write about why, explain it and if its understandable then its fine" Those popped up, because when you have enough different ways of being Jedi there is the occasional tolerance, and those things we're allowed but if you gave and inch someone eventually would take the mile..."Well I don't agree with two parts of the doctrine" "Well that's fine just write about why"...then it came to three, four...half the doctrine whatever...great write about why so we understand and lets move on. Tolerance grew and grew and now you don't even have to follow doctrine. It tried to be so inclusive there is no totjo way to be Jedi anymore. Now you have members such as yourself Kyrin who are defining their own way to be a TOTJO jedi. You talk about what rights anyone has to try and teach you anything other then what you want to learn etc. Me personally I gave up that right when I realized that day in my yard I really don't know shit, and to sit there and believe I do to the fullest extent of my soul until I crushed it into oblivion with a single brief moment in a day was the dumbest thing I ever did. But thats me personally.

But more importantly is this push that there are soo many ways to be Jedi, that the temple just keeps letting more and more and more extreme things through just to let people through. At some point there will be no point in knighthood, or even a council. Why have a council decide if someone is ready for knighthood if what is knighthood isn't up to them but up to the apprentices. because they decide what they learn exclusively anymore? At what point is there in even having knighthood when knighthood used to stand for its oath and its virtues, but now is trying to be defined by the apprentices, they decide what it is for them...Knighthood now doesn't mean the same thing from one person to the next and its label is now pointless and has no definitions. It's hard to hold an oath and belief in a title a long time and a lot of energy and effort and understanding put into getting it, when someone else can do it for half the effort or none at all, or not hold to it the same beliefs you do. For its reputation for what it is to be tarnished by it. One tolerance of a difference of opinion led to the next and so on until the tolerance is now so wide open, lots of different people are getting through. This is a subject of a lot of debate as well. But it seems more and more that this is the way things are going. Knighthood as I learned it was more about the oath and doctrine and a state of being, state of living, state of perception about the world around us, and how we behave among everyone, not only our peers. That if we "backslide" to copy a christian term that we should work to recognize it, or help others recognize it so we can get back on track. I remember when that used to be a thing here, at least a little bit. That seems to have gone away because anytime you do that now everyone gets super defensive and starts just attacking each other instead of considering the possibility they are indeed wrong. Another trait I wish was put into training as a requirement....but alas I'm only of but a minority that believes so.

So new members come in feeling as if they know better and are better then those who have spent years applying these ideas and lessons and epiphanies and eureka's and perceptions to their life style, great that happens everywhere in many different ways, but the fact that instead of addressing that its just letting them continue and telling them its ok to not clear themselves of these bad perceptions just leads to repeated conflicts over and over and over again. Why some of these made it even into knighthood further blows my mind honestly. Though I think the increase size of council helps to address that some as well.

Good essay answers, does not a Jedi make. Actions and choices are what define what you have learned and grown. Knighthood approval should be based off actions, not essay answers, essay answers and essays are merely guides to make you think, and guides to help you come to your own epiphanies and eureka's, nothing more. If anyone has gotten through based purely off essay answers and not based off their actions then the system has failed. Thus any focus on covering the minimum 100 points vs covering the growth you need to cover as an individual is also a very flawed approach and will also only lead to failure.

To copy a common phrase from the series, "You must unlearn, what you have learned" You have to be willing to let go and have faith in your teachers that they do actually know more, and are doing their best to guide you to the next life altering epiphany. Sometimes that means doing things blindly. Not everything is clear cut do this great now you got it.

No one wants to see you not reach knighthood kyrin, we we're all excited when you were wiling to accept senan as a teacher. From a personal standpoint, while I was a council member, my vote for you was going to be no, unless you learned to open your mind a bit to the possibility that everything you know "could" be wrong, and that you learned to be more patient, be more objective, and be able to consider other people's perceptions as valid as your own. Oh and also that we saw you stop attacking people even in defense of yourself. You have some trauma in your lifetime that has lead you to be who you are today, as we are all products of our environments. We've all been there done that. One that probably caused you to be as closed and confirmed as you are. But this is a new environment, one that you can come a long way in if you just open up, put some faith in it, and let your idea's not only get challenged but broken as well. That is no easy task to accomplish. I know I sound probably like a hypocrit for saying that, but it doesn't make it any less true. You can do 300 points, but if you can't tame your own ego, if you can't defeat your own dragon's as it we're then those should be your focus more over anything else, including achieving knighthood. It's not about the points, or at least it shouldn't be, it's about the growth.

But what do I know, I'm just a guest now right? This is your temple now, do as you see fit.

Thanks Tellanane, for taking the time to write such an eloquent reply. I can understand a lot of the things you are speaking to in this post. I’m not one to dispute anything you have experienced in your time here but I think I might be able to give you some advice. Hopefully you can receive it in the spirit in which it is given.

I have experienced many times in my life that same epiphany that you describe. One of thinking “well I have arrived” – there is nothing left for me to understand and I’ll just wait here for everyone else to catch up. And then yet another door opens and I realize there is so much further to walk. The details of my journey are not important here, but rest assured I have had them, many times over.

What is important is that if you walk through enough of those doors you eventually come to the idea that there is no destination, there is no such thing as religion or doctrine or ritual or dogma or a single mentor with all the answers that will ever fully satisfy. There is only the path and when you can finally begin to see the path for what it truly is, all that over stuff drops away. That’s only the first step because then you have to walk that path and that is a journey that only you can take alone and you can take nothing with you except your own fears and insecurities and preconceptions.

If you walk it long enough even those get stripped from you and you are left bare and alone and you have to face the fact that you are not your thoughts or your opinions or your beliefs. You are only what you live and how you breathe and the connection you experience. Doctrine becomes meaningless, language becomes meaningless, belief becomes meaningless… there is only experience, and that experience is a finite one that is struggling to become aware in an infinite universe.

What you come to realize is that spirituality is not what we do but who we are and we are each singularly unique. It’s not a practice, it’s a way of life, a worldview, a mode of existence that embodies every fiber of our being - And we are the only one that experiences it in the way we do. It’s the ultimate subjective experience embedded into a paradox of intimate singular connection with everything else.

This place did not change direction on you, it showed you a glimpse into what that direction for you should truly be. Embrace that and run with it and never look back. Become what you were meant to be and never let anyone tell you that you should be something different. And especially never let any one convince you, especially yourself, that others are more worthy than you to guide you. Partner with those people you find kinship in but never bow to them. They are on the same journey as you, as we all are, and as much as they can show you, always know that you can show them just as much.

As you continue on this mission these things will be something you come to know, not through knowledge but through wisdom. This is the truth you seek, that combination of knowledge and experience. Never stop that search even if you think you have found it, because that only means you have not. In the end, if you search hard enough, you will come to know as I, that the path is not one that exists out there somewhere, but inside each of us.

Best of luck my friend, and may you find what you seek!

That was quite wonderful, Kyrin

There’s the Kyrin I know and love! Don’t get me wrong though, I still the feisty Kyrin too. I’m just very content seeing the right wisdom come out in the best way at the perfect time

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Thanks Tellanane, for taking the time to write such an eloquent reply. I can understand a lot of the things you are speaking to in this post. I’m not one to dispute anything you have experienced in your time here but I think I might be able to give you some advice. Hopefully you can receive it in the spirit in which it is given.

I have experienced many times in my life that same epiphany that you describe. One of thinking “well I have arrived” – there is nothing left for me to understand and I’ll just wait here for everyone else to catch up. And then yet another door opens and I realize there is so much further to walk. The details of my journey are not important here, but rest assured I have had them, many times over.

What is important is that if you walk through enough of those doors you eventually come to the idea that there is no destination, there is no such thing as religion or doctrine or ritual or dogma or a single mentor with all the answers that will ever fully satisfy. There is only the path and when you can finally begin to see the path for what it truly is, all that over stuff drops away. That’s only the first step because then you have to walk that path and that is a journey that only you can take alone and you can take nothing with you except your own fears and insecurities and preconceptions.

If you walk it long enough even those get stripped from you and you are left bare and alone and you have to face the fact that you are not your thoughts or your opinions or your beliefs. You are only what you live and how you breathe and the connection you experience. Doctrine becomes meaningless, language becomes meaningless, belief becomes meaningless… there is only experience, and that experience is a finite one that is struggling to become aware in an infinite universe.

What you come to realize is that spirituality is not what we do but who we are and we are each singularly unique. It’s not a practice, it’s a way of life, a worldview, a mode of existence that embodies every fiber of our being - And we are the only one that experiences it in the way we do. It’s the ultimate subjective experience embedded into a paradox of intimate singular connection with everything else.

This place did not change direction on you, it showed you a glimpse into what that direction for you should truly be. Embrace that and run with it and never look back. Become what you were meant to be and never let anyone tell you that you should be something different. And especially never let any one convince you, especially yourself, that others are more worthy than you to guide you. Partner with those people you find kinship in but never bow to them. They are on the same journey as you, as we all are, and as much as they can show you, always know that you can show them just as much.

As you continue on this mission these things will be something you come to know, not through knowledge but through wisdom. This is the truth you seek, that combination of knowledge and experience. Never stop that search even if you think you have found it, because that only means you have not. In the end, if you search hard enough, you will come to know as I, that the path is not one that exists out there somewhere, but inside each of us.

Best of luck my friend, and may you find what you seek!

Very impressive, except the typo in my name that hurts =p kidding aside, very impressed with what you have written vs where you have come from.

My only question to you is upon the bold, I have written it before, and I think I even touch on it in my last little bit of a video series when it comes to being jedi simply, is that at some point you reach a point in which doctrine doesn't define you, your choices and actions would define doctrine, if doctrine is even a thing that needs to be. It isn't about dogma or rules that have to be followed its just simply a way of being/living/existing. But what first inclination that came up as I read this is, then why jediism? why if everything to you has become meaningless, do you quest, so to speak, for titles and labels? What you have described is so neutral. why here? Why not anything else? Why such the big upset when the title and label that according to this description you have given is ultimately meaningless was denied to you originally? Not asking because I don't have these answers for myself I'm just curious about your perspective.

As far as the second to last paragraph about deeming others more worthy to guide, that will be somewhere that I will have to agree to disagree. Only in that in the time I've spent in my various careers in emergency response, the things I've come to witness, experience and so on. There are just situations where (and this could come down to a difference in definition of guide) leaving someone to their own methods only results in unnecessary consequences that could have easily been prevented. It does come down eventually to your own individual trials and errors, and there are plenty of cases where I know that someone can only learn some things by experience and only experience I'm not saying that doesn't exist. But there are also times where putting trust in someone else, being the right someone, can literally save a life of experiences yet to be had. Which could have been prevented by someone else not guiding properly just as much as someone not getting any guidance at all. Ultimately sure, it may still be there decision in the very sum of all things, I get a lot of hate for it but everyone has a choice, when they say they don't have a choice or didn't have a choice it's not even remotely true, but to say that there isn't someone out there who isn't a worthy guide I think isn't ultimately true either. At least for those portions of the journey, not speaking in absolutes in that your entire lifetime has to be submitted to someone or something, but that for this leg of it, or that leg of it, or another leg of it down there putting trust and faith in someone Isn't important, or even required.

We put faith in our parents as they raised us from innocence, we put faith in our teachers in our education system we put faith in our responders when there's emergencies, our doctors, our dentists, we put faith in people who prepare our food at the restaurants we eat at. We put faith into a lot of things without even realizing it. Who put together the vehicles we are driving and their safety features. Our whole existence is about at some point putting faith into someone to guide us in some way or another, I don't see the relationship between student and a teacher to ever be different.

but again personal view. but it also might be miscommunication. You state "Partner with those people you find kinship in but never bow to them" and I read that as if you should totally surrender your live to them and I never meant that, and I'm not sure entirely where that comes from. I'm not sure if your interpreting everything I say as an absolute or if it's just how I sound etc. I don't believe really at all(or try not to) in absolutes or dichotomy anymore for that matter.