On the Topic of Role Ambiguity

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11 Mar 2018 18:17 #318459 by ren
Replied by ren on topic On the Topic of Role Ambiguity

Arisaig wrote: A quick reminder, this thread is not about people, it is about a very real problem that is plaguing this place that needs to be addressed.


Please give examples of this 'very real problem' rather than declare it such.



Ob1 this has to do with editing other areas of the site which fall under other departments such as clergy and education. Not the library page. No-one had to go through him to get permission to edit. I think his demands in that regard were far less reasonable than that of banning kyrin, a negative influence on his apprentice.

When i get a mcdonalds i don't complain about not getting a free blowjob with it, although it would be super nice to get one too. Why? Because it's not a reasonable expectation, just like it is not reasonable to expect people to ask permission to edit their own department's material.

Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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11 Mar 2018 18:24 #318460 by OB1Shinobi

ren wrote:
When i get a mcdonalds i don't complain about not getting a free blowjob with it, although it would be super nice to get one too.



Order the Happy-Ending Meal next time

People are complicated.
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11 Mar 2018 18:27 #318461 by
Replied by on topic On the Topic of Role Ambiguity
Well that's kind of horrific.

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11 Mar 2018 18:38 - 11 Mar 2018 18:51 #318463 by OB1Shinobi

Akkarin wrote:

Trisskar wrote: Apologizing and approaching Zenchi


That was done on the day.

I updated the Introduction to the IP. I posted that the TotJO:2015 needed updating. I Pm'ed Zenchi telling him I'd update it in my spare time and to let me know if he wants to help. He immediately stepped down. I immediately apologised.

Better communication definitely helps, I could have told him beforehand what I was doing and I was, and still am, more than happy to talk out any issues.



Well its tough to avoid the conclusion that Zenchi took things too personal and freaked out. As a guy who has taken things too personal before and freaked out because of it, i understand completely. Ive been there, and will be again. But you know, "take responsibility" and all that "Jedi" stuff.




JLSpinner wrote: Well that's kind of horrific.


They call him "Grimace" for a reason.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 11 Mar 2018 18:51 by OB1Shinobi.

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11 Mar 2018 18:59 #318465 by Br. John
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11 Mar 2018 19:43 #318469 by
Replied by on topic On the Topic of Role Ambiguity

ren wrote:

Arisaig wrote: A quick reminder, this thread is not about people, it is about a very real problem that is plaguing this place that needs to be addressed.


Please give examples of this 'very real problem' rather than declare it such.


The problem is that the roles aren't clearly defined as such. Ya'll keep saying this isn't a democracy, its a corporation, so run it as such. A corporation that doesn't have any clear roles is in chaos, and one that doesn't give their volunteers clear roles will find themselves without volunteers. Its basic business.

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11 Mar 2018 19:59 - 11 Mar 2018 20:03 #318472 by steamboat28
After having read the whole thread, here are my opinions, in no particular order:
  • The point about role disambiguity is valid.
  • The point about better communication is valid.
  • The points about offense given and taken are valid.
  • Most of this thread should be common sense.

We should avoid stepping on toes wherever possible, but we should continue to offer to help where we can. That's where the communication bit comes in.
Last edit: 11 Mar 2018 20:03 by steamboat28.
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12 Mar 2018 00:47 #318495 by
Replied by on topic On the Topic of Role Ambiguity
I’m not really sure if this is a desired addition after Steam’s summary; but I had a couple of thoughts on role ambiguity and volunteering that came out of reading this thread which might be relevant... but maybe not. I can only speak in the vaguest of terms – I’ve not been here long enough, and I see little, due to the veil structure. However I have volunteered in many roles, and my life experience might offer something – no-one will know if I don’t say something!

Big aspects of volunteer leadership are recruitment and retention. If I put on my “complete outsider” hat; TotJO has a funny system which, perhaps unintentionally, makes potentially useful people less useful to its self. It’s called “knighthood”. You’ve got to retain your members through a years-long process which, yes, might genuinely be selective for the traits you are looking for; but in all honesty; those traits were probably in the people before they on the process, even if those skills weren’t so refined and polished. Not many knighthoods teach a passion for HTML and documents. Once in a blue moon, an apprenticeship might unlock someone’s hidden talents in such; but I imagine most of the people who could be interested in a role are already coding archivists when they first arrive. I have explained this phenomenon to myself as a rather beautiful understanding that it’s not so important that the job is done, as much as when it is done, it is done with a certain aesthetic. If TotJO is short of volunteers there may be ways of tapping current resources (my apologies – people are not “resources”) while ensuring the aesthetic is maintained.

On the retention side, a huge part in my experience is fun. A part of fun for many people is creativity, as it allows for self-expression and fulfilment. A fully voluntary group I worked with, campaigning debt relief, handled it in a way I can best briefly summarise as: “You think creatively on how you contribute to this organisations’ mission and you can take the role you invent on as a volunteer; else we are pleased to welcome you as a member.” Members were informed of events in which they can participate to show support of the organisations’ aims. People oscillated in and out of the “member” and “volunteer” categories all the time. Members would become volunteers, running a project either in a group or alone that they’d created for the purpose of achieving the organisation goals. No role persisted except in senior leadership – and they were the ones who would select projects from the membership body. Senior Leadership would support volunteers in running their projects (resources, finances), but they also handled conflict between volunteers. When you had an unresolvable issue with another volunteer, you took it to your senior leader. They would listen to both parties in private – which was great; because if anyone felt the need to go Kylo Ren (and they did) then it was in the hands of someone who was trusted to handle it – not at/on another volunteer. If they felt it was a miscommunication; you’d talk together as a 3. If there was ultimately a decision to be made, it was made by the senior leader; not by either “volunteer” EVEN IF the decision was in their self-defined “role”. Senior leadership’s responsibility was safeguarding the interests of the group that you yourself had chosen to serve as a volunteer, so their judgement, after listening, was generally accepted. If you disagreed, you were effectively disagreeing with the organisation’s direction, but you could stay on as a member if you felt strongly about committing to the purpose of debt relief, even if the model and direction of the organisation was not to your taste. So trust from the volunteers in the senior leadership was essential. But equally essential is the leaderships’ ability to handle the splashy emotions of the volunteers, and make good judgements with a clear sense of vision for the organisation’s direction as a whole.

I’ve also worked in teams where roles have been super closely defined. That worked too! That was probably one of the most efficient places I’ve worked (there was a lot more “wasted time” in the previous working model I described – but there was also more fun for that) but people complained a lot about their roles, and even then, people don’t work to script. Conflict still occurs based on role definitions – and that’s in an organisation where the roles have been defined and in use for many years and they’re full time with training that is extremely hands on. Unfortunately, that’s not something a person can hope for in an web-forum based temple. However well a role is defined; you’re going to have conflict, so my thought is that defining roles will not necessarily make a huge amount of difference, when compared to a culture shift when it comes to conflict resolution.

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12 Mar 2018 01:11 #318496 by Adder
Nature of volunteering in this environment, its a team effort and the allocated positions are the primary focus to participate within that team environment. It's not 'function', its 'focus'... IMO. Now the overlap does not extend equally to all people, as their are other structures at play, and even within Council we have some with administrator access and some with only full moderator access, so even there some Councillors can do more then others. I guess its about knowing what your powers are, and working with them within the context of the overall team both laterally and vertically.

The realities of this environment blur the boundaries, and time lets things settle, sort or sifts. The benefits of a team approach is that it suits the variability in online volunteer commitment.

But, mobile technologies might mitigate that to a large extent now with people being accessible more then previously, and I think it would be better if people could have more specific roles with less permeable barriers, as it would allow better tracking of work effort and the bludgers might stand out a bit more from the harder workers (from someone in bludging mode!!!).

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12 Mar 2018 13:50 #318505 by steamboat28
While we can (and should) work to a degree without borders, we should also have lines drawn for who does what. Recognition goes a long way in retaining volunteers.

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