On the Topic of Role Ambiguity

These are the facts. I am not criticizing anyone Atticus.

Rules or the highway and we don't give a damn about your feelings."

Feelings? A jedi should function unaffected by these. Also having multiple ambiguous roles is not what i'd refer to as 'rules or the highway'

Trisskar wrote: Apologizing and approaching Zenchi

That was done on the day.

I updated the Introduction to the IP. I posted that the TotJO:2015 needed updating. I Pm'ed Zenchi telling him I'd update it in my spare time and to let me know if he wants to help. He immediately stepped down. I immediately apologised.

Better communication definitely helps, I could have told him beforehand what I was doing and I was, and still am, more than happy to talk out any issues.

ren wrote: These are the facts. I am not criticizing anyone Atticus.

Rules or the highway and we don't give a damn about your feelings."

Feelings? A jedi should function unaffected by these. Also having multiple ambiguous roles is not what i'd refer to as 'rules or the highway'

I'm not excusing the actions of others and how it reflects upon there training. I am questioning the nature of your response and the method in it, which was abrasive and rude. There are better ways to present the facts then the way you did and the manner of your response very much declares a "Do as we say or not at all" stand point. Rules, Roles, doesn't matter.

I don't think anyone here is trying to change very much. Meerly an awarness of our fellow Jedi and a better respect towards eachother....why is this so hard for people to accept?

Over Lap - We get it. It's been detailed quite clearly ---- So how can we open the doors to better communication between these over laps? ---- Why not have Office Log's in which goals and timeframe of goals are listed before action is applied.? Why not place actions in an "To be approved" folder for final checks and approval before being posted? Why not open your PM box and message the parties involved and say "Hey!! Id like to do this, green light or red?"

Clearly Defined Roles - Simple enough right? Detail it in a plain english and poof. Follow the outline! Its like a treasure map one miss step and you have the temple in an outrage. Good luck!

Respect - Common people. This is a Doctrine Tenet. Right or Wrong dosn't have a part in this...Just be overall respectful, yea?

A quick reminder, this thread is not about people, it is about a very real problem that is plaguing this place that needs to be addressed.

I know this is off topic.. apologies....

I just wanted to pause something here and hope we can catch something that has happened that happens quite frequently around here...

ren wrote: At no point did totjo offer exclusivity. It has never been an exclusive role. No role at totjo has exclusive control of anything. Executive decisions get redecided by council. Etc. Totjo is not anyone's autocratic little country. No matter how much those who complain it is while demanding/threatening 'or else' try to make it.

Zenchi learned quite early on he does not have sole control of the information on totjo. He also learned he does not control who has what rank, a realisation that was instrumental in his departure.


The end.

I'm reading this response and, when I remove all predicted possibilities of personally intended interpretations, am finding nothing here that is rude nor disrespectful. it's just... raw facts. There has been no character judgements, absolutes or exaggerations.

I believe "The end" was supposed to mean "That's all here".

I can very predictably see how his post could be interpreted as condescending, but if you actually look at it without your personal lenses, you'll notice, there was actually just... information.

When you consider this, I don't think ren was in the wrong.

And if what Akkarin is saying is true, I'm not seeing much here against him either.

Can we spend some time before posting anymore to think this topic over before continuing?

I'd prefer not to have "the temple" in outrage. Its rarely "the temple", just one or two people who might better work it out in private

Arisaig wrote: A quick reminder, this thread is not about people, it is about a very real problem that is plaguing this place that needs to be addressed.

Not to be argumentative: I understand the premise of this statement. But bare with me.

It is the people who interact in this temple

It is the people who cause the offense

It is the people who have problems with x, y & z

And no matter how many times we try and wave our hands and say "Oh its not about that" it...really kind of is

Someone got offended ---- Perhaps we really should address how people respond to offense and how we can A: Avoid it i the future and B: Manage our responsive reactions to it.

Someone Caused the Offense --- Perhaps we really should address how people are causing these offenses and how we can A: avoid it in the future (AKA: Communication & Organization) and B: Develop a better system to avoid it in the future.

People. Are actually at the heart of this "Very Real Problem" You said it yourself Arisaig, the definitions are actually not all that bad. Its the people approach's/reaction regardless of the system's set up.

So perhaps maybe not in this thread But also perhaps maybe in some sort of thread....I think its more important then people are willing to admit to.

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: A quick reminder, this thread is not about people, it is about a very real problem that is plaguing this place that needs to be addressed.

Not to be argumentative: I understand the premise of this statement. But bare with me.

It is the people who interact in this temple

It is the people who cause the offense

It is the people who have problems with x, y & z

And no matter how many times we try and wave our hands and say "Oh its not about that" it...really kind of is

Someone got offended ---- Perhaps we really should address how people respond to offense and how we can A: Avoid it i the future and B: Manage our responsive reactions to it.

Someone Caused the Offense --- Perhaps we really should address how people are causing these offenses and how we can A: avoid it in the future (AKA: Communication & Organization) and B: Develop a better system to avoid it in the future.

People. Are actually at the heart of this "Very Real Problem" You said it yourself Arisaig, the definitions are actually not all that bad. Its the people approach's/reaction regardless of the system's set up.

So perhaps maybe not in this thread But also perhaps maybe in some sort of thread....I think its more important then people are willing to admit to.

I agree, I just made the statement because people were reverting to talking about people that aren't here to defend their position, assuming their intentions, ect ect. Yes, of course the interpersonal stuff should be handled in PM, I'm just seeing a lot of people assume a person's reaction based off a single event, rather than everything leading up to it.

But yeah, not the point of this thread. If something is meant for a single position, no one should be interfering. It causes confusion both in the general populous and also with the volunteers themselves.

Im not sure how many times over the years ive seen Zenchi link to the library. When he got the position i felt like that was the perfect choice because hes the one whose shown the most enthusiasm for the material. I only see what gets posted in vanilla membership areas so to me it looked like Akkarin added something to the library without asking Zenchis approval, and Z took it as personal insult, and quit.

Did Zenchi PM Akkarin to sort the thing out? Or anyone? If so, what was his tone and wording? What were the response/s that he got? You can say this isnt about Zenchis case, but it obviously IS. If the idea here is to prevent future infractions, we have to establish that what happened here counts as an "infraction" to begin with.

This is one of the reasons i think conversations should be PUBLIC: the consequences of interactions will spill into the public forums, we might as well have all the information we need in order to work together for a solution. But thats another topic.

When people have roles in an organization they care about, its not all that uncommon for some to identify with the role in a personal way. And i mean that technically; the role, to some extent, becomes part of a persons sense of identity. Or at least it can. Point being, if someone personalized their role as librarian and someone else comes along and acts in a way thay the Librarian feels invalidated the role, its not surprising that the Librarian might be upset. You can switch out the word "librarian" for whatever.

On the other hand, this place has a large roster of "used to be heres" and a pretty small roster of "been here forevers", especially if youre talking about administrative duties, and it probably never occured to Akkarin that it would bother anyone to just add something to the library, since (im guessing) it was never a problem before.

Now Zenchi has quit a position that (by all appearances) he enjoyed having. Disappointed that the position dodnt work out the way he imagined it but also angry and unwilling to pick it back up. Kind of a lose/lose situation to my way of thinking.

Can somebody elaborate what all other instances of these kinds of situations have happened?

I've not been aware that this has been a problem before.

Does anyone else here feel this problem exists as has been mentioned here?