On power

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6 years 5 months ago #305878 by Zenchi
Replied by Zenchi on topic On power

Mag Nashira wrote: Power is an illusion. We all come into this world kicking and screaming and trying to influence everyone with our cries so that we can get our needs met. But when it comes down to it, there is very little that we can actually control. As Streen says, the only power any of us has is over ourselves.


Actually I came into this world DOA, with three knots in my umbilical cord wrapped around my neck. Not everyone comes in kicking and screaming, quite the contrary...

Opinions, everyone has one whether they know what it is they're talking about or not. Power over one's self leads to power over others, the thing I've noticed from observation is that by the time one has come close to mastering themselves, they've become so well grounded they seldom feel the need to abuse that power over others...


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My Word is my Honor, and my Honor is my Life ~ Sturm Brightblade
Passion, yet Serenity
Knighted Apprentice Arisaig
TM- RyuJin
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6 years 5 months ago #305879 by Manu
Replied by Manu on topic On power

Mag Nashira wrote: Power is an illusion.... But when it comes down to it, there is very little that we can actually control.


You should reply in the bullying thread and gun control threads with this insight. After all, if power over others is an illusion, then bullying is an illusion and guns are pointless, no?

Streen wrote: The only power any of us has is to be who we are.


This is one of those abstract zen-like statements that on surface appears to be deep and meaningful. But in reality this tells me nothing. What do you mean?

The pessimist complains about the wind;
The optimist expects it to change;
The realist adjusts the sails.
- William Arthur Ward

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6 years 5 months ago - 6 years 5 months ago #305897 by Reacher
Replied by Reacher on topic On power
Power is the ability to influence through time, space, and purpose.

It is, in some cases, subjective...but it is no illusion. Considering it an illusion risks wielding power irresponsibly, and recuses its wielder of responsibility for what follows.

Power is okay, just as money and wealth are okay. LOVE of power is where the trouble lays.

Jedi Knight

The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.
Last edit: 6 years 5 months ago by Reacher.

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6 years 5 months ago - 6 years 5 months ago #305900 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic On power
As a Jedi definitions WILL be difrent , and that's ok. Power . Lots of examples and many in actual use. What powers me... how do I respond to the general idea of power and so I even accept it? Balance is always needed in my own path. I don't ever speak for any one , just me and mine ! The powers that have rule ... over me I choose. Some I didn't . Some I have moved past. Power can be passed , inherited , changes exhausted , extinguished , rid, gained , learned , distorted, immortalized , played down and ignored among the many things it can be . I personally don't subscribe to any power other than my own. I utilize many out there but I always try to keeps balance well... balanced. Power is a very many things and can be used so many ways , Kinna like a gun, or love or even hate , or a sword , not a thing on its own but in the hands of its user , it will only be used as an extension of the wielder. Power is a tool too often NOT prepared for and often given to the untrained. Balance is always possible . ALWAYS


Edit : with power, intention is often outed with time

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
Last edit: 6 years 5 months ago by Carlos.Martinez3.

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6 years 5 months ago #305907 by
Replied by on topic On power
To me, power in this context is synonymous with capability. What are we capable of doing? Of changing? What are we able to accomplish? There isn't any good or evil aspect to it, except for what we bring ourselves. Like the cave on Dagobah.
The limits of our capability have a few variables. What are we physically able to do and what are others willing to do for us. Those are the primary variables which are also dependant on other variables. Do others respect you? Fear you? Do you train or practice to be more efficient? Overall our "power" is based on our choices that we make everyday. Those choice also influence how we use said power.
Like the Native American myth of the two wolves fighting for control. The one we chose to feed more wins. Our actions create our capability.

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6 years 5 months ago #306062 by Reacher
Replied by Reacher on topic On power
So I replied in this thread a bit earlier...and then I did the smart thing and decided to learn a bit more about the topic.

In sum, for a concept with so much literature written about it, Power remains a very difficult term to nail down. That said, it is far from a meaningless idea. Just because we cannot quantify intangibles like love and hate does not detract from their ability to make change in the world. Meaningless or not, Power is an idea and a term that has proven difficult to replace with something more precise and descriptive.

The thing about Power is that it only matters in relevant context. Quantifiable analogies like Energy to Physics or Money to Economy ultimately fail---there is no theory or practice or unit of measure that bounds a unit of 'Power' in all contexts. What is powerful in terms of one context or relationship is completely powerless in another. Military capability and capacity in one context is powerful...and yet economy, creativity, and perception are all supremely powerful in others.

Some define power as the ability to create or resist change. Others, to influence --- namely, the ability to do things and affect people to get the outcomes we want. There seems to be a commonality between many definitions of power in Motive and Context. Context is the medium or domain through which power is exercised, and motive is the will which desires an outcome. But the thing is...some believe that inanimate, intangible things also have power. This eliminates motive because inanimate things have no agency, meaning they are not people and cannot desire an outcome. There is something inherently relational to the idea of power, then...and context re-emerges in the forefront. Any time someone or something is labeled as having 'power', we must then ask, 'power to do what?' Further complicating the idea of Power is the notion of unintended consequences. Something can be powerful in a context entirely unknown to or misunderstood by the actor. There are specifics, in some international relations connotations, of who, what, how, where, and when. Behavioral definitions (not limited only to people) often judge power by outcomes determined AFTER the action. However, this isn't very helpful for policymakers or ER patients with minutes to live.

I can't help but wonder if currency is an attempt at quantifying power. In the stone age, whoever had the best quality and highest quantity of stone could make better tools and weapons (all other factors assumed equal - which I know they aren't)...and perhaps had the power to coerce or trade to their benefit. However at some point metals like bronze, then iron and gold came center stage for their malleable utility and ornateness. Post-industrial revolution you have coal...then oil...and for a time (perhaps still) uranium. All of these were mediums of power and influence that indicate a very transitory nature regarding power. The Stone Age did not end for lack of stone, and neither will the age of oil and gas end before they dry up.

All of these things share something - people thought they were important for a time. But the items themselves were meaningless without their relationship to people, events, and ideas. Relational power touts a few different aspects in its own right: commanding change, controlling agendas, and establishing preferences. If I can command change so that others act against their preferences, that is a certain aspect of power. If I can get them to prefer what I prefer...I don't need to command anything - which is another aspect. The third (agenda controlling) limits a person's options...or perceived options such that they choose something acceptable to me. This is all within the realm of relational power.

In any case...after much study and consideration, the weight of evidence still lends itself to the existence of power as a useful framework for the phenomenon of affecting change. I do not see Power as inherently good or bad, but something requiring awareness (self and organizational) and responsibility when wielding.

I hope this was in some smidge of a way as useful to you as it was for me to dig up!

Thanks for reading!

Jedi Knight

The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.
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6 years 5 months ago #306068 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic On power
I'm allowed to post this no-more then once a year (self imposed restriction) :D
Fictional ramble about money, its relationship to time and how that can impact society... which I always enjoy;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVRpA-_jzV4

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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6 years 5 months ago #306085 by
Replied by on topic On power
Zenchi wrote:
Power over one's self leads to power over others, the thing I've noticed from observation is that by the time one has come close to mastering themselves, they've become so well grounded they seldom feel the need to abuse that power over others...

My response: The only time we have power over others is if others choose to let us have power over them because people always have choices. Even in jail you can choose to cooperate with your captors or not. People have escaped jail. Or my boss, for example, only has power over me if I choose to follow. I would have to deal with consequences if I didn’t choose to follow, but there is always a choice.

Manu wrote:
You should reply in the bullying thread and gun control threads with this insight. After all, if power over others is an illusion, then bullying is an illusion and guns are pointless, no?

My response: The gun part is a good argument. However, even at gun point we have a choice. People have survived hold ups. People have chosen to fight back. It is difficult, even with a gun, to hit a moving target. Also, what happens if the person they pulled a gun on has a gun too?

Reacher wrote:
It is, in some cases, subjective...but it is no illusion. Considering it an illusion risks wielding power irresponsibly, and recuses its wielder of responsibility for what follows.

My response: On the contrary, if you understand that you really only have control over yourself you realize you have to take responsibility for your own actions.

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6 years 5 months ago - 6 years 5 months ago #306087 by Reacher
Replied by Reacher on topic On power

Mag Nashira wrote: My response: On the contrary, if you understand that you really only have control over yourself you realize you have to take responsibility for your own actions.


Mag, I might agree with you if we were discussing control. Since we’re discussing power, however, I think it is critically important to acknowledge the interrelationships between people and our power to influence. Not to control...but to influence intentionally or unintentionally. And while I agree that in many respects we only have control over our own choices (as opposed to ourselves), those choices reverberate and affect others and others’ choices as well.

I suspect our views are much closer than we realize, and we are only typing past one another a bit.
Thank you for your reply.

Jedi Knight

The self-confidence of the warrior is not the self-confidence of the average man. The average man seeks certainty in the eyes of the onlooker and calls that self-confidence. The warrior seeks impeccability in his own eyes and calls that humbleness. The average man is hooked to his fellow men, while the warrior is hooked only to infinity.
Last edit: 6 years 5 months ago by Reacher. Reason: Post-script
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6 years 5 months ago #306089 by
Replied by on topic On power
That depends on which type of power you mean; power over others or power over one's self. If you are talking about the former, then the only thing I know for certain about power is that I have no desire for it. Every time in my life that I have found myself with a little bit of power over others I noticed it came with the stress of using it and the fear of losing it, and I've had my fill of stress and fear for this lifetime. I've found that I'm much happier the less power I have over other people.

If you mean power over one's self, on the other hand, that is the most important kind of power a person can achieve, and in our current global society, it's also very rare.

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